00:00 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Disclaimer the content presented in this show is intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any individuals or organizations mentioned. Statements made about public figures or entities are based on publicly available information and are not intended to harm or defame any person or business. This show relies on fair use of social media posts, which are presented in good faith for the purpose of commentary and criticism. Viewers and listeners are advised to form their own opinions. 

00:53
Circle back right here on the circles off youtube channel. Part of the hammer betting network and presented by underdog, this is the show where we cover the latest and greatest from the week that was on gambling twitter. But the problem is we had one show we went live live Tuesdays, 8 am Eastern time, and there was so much that happened over the course of the week on Gambling Twitter that it felt like some of the content that we covered in the weekly show went a bit stale. So instead we decided we're doing two of these shows a week, introducing the cast for Circle Back Fridays. We've got at the top right of the screen Jeff Nadeau. Bottom left we have Chris Dierkis, also known as Flopdolide Flop on Twitter and we have the ever-present for the hammer, Joey Kanish, in the bottom right of the screen. 

01:35
I'm Jacob. I'm usually the producer on the Tuesday show, but stepping up into the hosting role for this one here and the promotion for this show kind of branded as Circleback 2, but I don don't know. I'm looking around at the caster guys. I think this is circle back number one, we could say this is where it's really gonna happen. 

01:49 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
This is the new circle back. They'll probably have to spin off the old show into something else, uh, and get rid of those has-beens, especially kirk evans, and uh, what feinberg have been going through. But no good, good to be on with you, boys. And uh, yeah, this will be well, we'll have to come up for a catch your name here once we take over. 

02:08 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, this is a well-established show for the Tuesday, but with the cast here, I think we can surpass what it is the Tuesday show. I mean, I am on both, but I'll leave it up to you guys to see who can come up with the better show. But we'll jump right into things here, reigniting the beef and um, let's just say that our creators here haven't always got along. Perhaps I mean possibly still don't get along I I guess we'll find out over the course of the recording today. But uh, here's joey knish tweeting from 2021. 

02:39
He said I never buy pay-per-views and we know I'm not big on Barstool, as is, but I don't think I can miss keyboard hard-ass Jeff Nadeau getting his ass beat by some Jersey lunatic because he's so broke. He had to take the fight. Can't miss content, unlike all the rest of Nadeau's failed content. All right, jeff, you're the one who brought this back up. You posted this on Twitter this week, so either you had this ready to go or you went and found this. How does it feel to be doing content alongside Kanish now? 

03:12 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Well, it's funny with Joey Kanish because, like Donald Trump, there's always a tweet right. 

03:16 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
There's always a tweet. You go back and find and with him. 

03:19 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Yeah, a lot of them came into my wavelength this week. Yeah, If you'd have told me at the beginning of, let's say, I don't know, February I'd be doing a show with Joey Kanish, I'd tell you you're fucking crazy. But here we are. But it's Twitter. You know, I've often realized over the years and I think you guys do as well you can't have any shame on here. People are not going to. Uh, the good thing is joey knish, I made 100k in three minutes. 

03:47 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Uh, when you do that, let me know, I listen, I I. I didn't know that. I didn't know that until recently. So I'll give you the other deal there, the backstory. I'll give you a little on twofold. One that was in the preem of my barstool sportsbook beef days where, like they had just rolled out a lot of the sportsbook stuff so I was going after anybody I could and one of the guys I bet with actually was in real life friends with Jersey Jerry. So I, like I kind of felt like I was in the Jerry circle, you were beefing with Jerry. 

04:15
We actually were able to get it. This is I mean, this is this is fights before, whatever happened in nowadays on Twitter. But I remember BetOnline was able to post it. There was a line, all that Nowadays on Twitter. I remember BetOnline was able to post it. There was a line, all that. But I will give you that $100,000. I didn't know that until recently when you said it. So, hey, I would have took $100,000. I don't care who's getting in the buy-down For about 100 bands to get in there for a few minutes. I give you credit, my man. 

04:43 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
That was. You took care of them. On that one, 70 000 pay-per-view buys, we did, so. It ended up working out. Uh. And, by the way, joey kanisha, when you want to put your youtube numbers up against mine, uh, let me know uh, you know what we got. 

04:54 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I gotta, I listen, we're. It's a little slow climb here. I know you've been doing, you know you've been talking about the mafias in 1972 or whatever, but uh, we'll be, we'll be back here to uh to see it get a little head-to-head but not for nothing. 

05:07 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
We're working together we're gonna surpass it all together. 

05:10 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
The dynamic here is great because flop, I mean, I feel like he's whispering, I'm the only one. 

05:16 - Flup (Co-host)
I'm the only one here that doesn't need you know the money to go well then why does it look like you're at your grandmother's house? 

05:24 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Like what is this background? I don't know where you're staying right now, but I almost said, well, she's crazy, the guy in like a morgue. 

05:35 - Flup (Co-host)
It's New York City, you know. 100 square feet costs like $10,000 a month. 

05:39 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
So now I see why you're crossing so big on some of these stuff, having to get up with New York rent. 

05:45 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Two hours ago he didn't even have a microphone to use, so thankfully that was addressed heading into this one today. I mean, kanish, took you like months and months and months to get a microphone, but it is nice to see you are sitting up straight for the show here today. 

05:58 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
It shows how much you really care. 

05:59 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
We've gone mainstream now, so I've gotten off the couch. 

06:09 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Well, before we started, jeff, you said, there's some even worse knish tweets out there. This is just one that surfaced this week. Oh yeah, this isn't even that bad a one. I mean it's, you know, not great, but he said way worse. 

06:14 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I mean I don't mean they do have all gone back at a little bit back and forth. I mean there's been way worse in in years past. 

06:23 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
But uh, you know, I'm listen it's nothing I haven't heard before, though, but for a guy that's like 51, still behaving like this is pretty crazy. 

06:31 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Oh, hey, hey listen, no, this face doesn't look a day over 30 baby. So, uh, we're going back and forth there, but uh, jacob, give me, give me what we got here on the first, uh, first rundown, because it's we, we got it we got to get into it. 

06:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
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08:05
Now let's really dig into things on circle back friday. All right, we'll dive into things here. We got something big, uh, for the first one, because the spaces are still what is dominating gambling twitter. People always mention on twitter the circles off account they I don't want to hear about the space. Well, listen, this show is about the latest and greatest from gambling twitter and right now, the biggest thing on gambling Twitter is the spaces. So here's a recap of kind of what's gone down this week. This was posted by Rob Kuhn, I believe is the pronunciation there. But basically everyone's claiming that they are the number one sports better in the space and there's none of them are even close to the number one sports better. In fact, you could argue that almost all of them are not winning. 

08:44
Sports betters are coming in arguing, but there was supposed to be a second fight between Mozzie and Sean Perry. That didn't materialize because, ultimately, mozzie showed up with $500,000 ready to bet on the fight, which I'm not sure. That was a great bet by Mozzie, but Sean Perry did not show up with any money, which led to a little bit of a dispute. Because, listen, I haven't had personal experiences with Sean Perry but I don't feel like he's a man of his word who will have $500,000 wired to Mozzie if on Twitter here he says Guy still owes the gym $7,000. Sean all cap he's a degenerate broke gambler who is only rich online. He's a broke bum. So what I can't understand here. It was a pretty thorough win for Sean Perry in the first fight. Why would Sean Perry not show up with the money for a fight that we would likely believe he is going to win? 

09:43 - Flup (Co-host)
This interaction made me think that he was either mozzie was either faking it and was actually much better than he's letting on, or two sean perry is actually broke and doesn't have the money and I think I'm going with two. 

09:55 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Number two seems like a pretty if I'm putting my 500 000 on the bet it's that. 

09:59 - Flup (Co-host)
Uh, I don't think sean perry has 500k liquid, it's also also hilarious how he spent the whole day or days prior tweeting about how mozzie better show up with the money. 

10:10 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Mozzie showed up with it and he didn't have a dollar incredible but I've learned with these people they can't take a win, they always have to keep doubling down and trying to get more wins. He had a win finally, right, yeah, one, he won per se. Everyone was in his corner, but it's no, let me just keep going and keep going, keep going. And the greed now and these people within 24 hours have clearly ruined any good graces they had for the last 24 hours. He just talked a little too much and and doubled down and it didn't work out for him. 

10:42 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Maybe you were. You were in on the spaces, you know, kind of a little bit more intently just being on it on a regular basis for a while. There it did. Recently did sean perry kind of pseudo, like buy the spaces for a minute there? I mean, I mean it was almost like he paid off elf for a week or two of content and they've kind of been just running whatever well harry has wanted to go by here's. 

11:09 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Here's what I'll say. Okay, since the beginning, I've liked elf, okay, yeah, um, I do not like sean perry and I made it clear to elf I don't want to be a part of the show when sean perry is there and I I haven't been. Um, what's going on in the last week? I can't tell you. I, I haven't been on. I've heard about what's going on. Uh, that's probably possible. It seems like sean perry is a guy who just buys friendships, right, and he's he's a very unlikable guy. I think he's definitely going through some things in his own head. Um, this is a guy who goes to a club with his own mother. 

11:40 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
That I mean that that was like what, what, how did I mean, was she? Why was your mom who would go to the book? Why was his mom there? Was she paying for this stuff? Like why? 

11:51 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
would that? 

11:52 - Flup (Co-host)
that's the allegation, and how old is he? 

11:55 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
how like is he? He's in his mid like 30 maybe yeah, or older like he's about 30. I don't know, I I really don't understand the I think elf here and we'll get into a little bit more of it. 

12:10 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
He's 28, apparently he's 28. 

12:12 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Okay, he's 28. That's about 16 years too old for your mom to be at the club with you and I don't know where. Like I think, elf maybe has made a little bit of a strategic mistake here, tying himself to Perry and Vance. 

12:31 - Flup (Co-host)
I don't know if you could say that. Yet His show is still doing very popular. It's still doing numbers, that's fair, great numbers. So, as of right now, he's been getting all the clout he wants. It's been very popular. He did get $10,000 from Sean Perry, that's what, if that's what you're referring to, uh, joey, but I think his show has still been a success. I have a lot of respect for what he's been able to build. Now I do agree with nadu. I think the past week has been a little bit overboard and it's gotten too out of hand and will it hurt his reputation? Maybe, but he's still doing great numbers. 

13:01 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
So but even with well, hey, go ahead, go ahead. Just one other thing even with amanda vance, like I still think it's kind of a you know funny in a way, where like it's just will she answer something tonight? And I can get by with that. But there's one person that I just I cannot stomach and that's perry I ever he's a narcissist at every level. Yeah, everything's about him. He he's not capable of like coming onto a space and saying, hey, how's everybody doing tonight? You guys have a good day. It's immediately, hey, can you hear me? And then he just goes into the same stuff time and time again. 

13:34 - Flup (Co-host)
Yeah. I think people just get tired of it. I was listening to the Amanda Vance thing and she was answering some questions and then Perry comes on and it does exactly that thing. And she was answering some questions and then perry comes on and it does exactly that. He he says I do this, I do that. And then him and rob pazola were having a back and forth for like 10 minutes and amanda was answering no questions. It was like what is this? Is this sean perry show or is this amanda vance show? 

13:58 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
and uh, sean perry had a bit of a crash out sort of tweet yesterday, um, where basically he called himself a scammer. I don't have it saved up for the slideshow here, but he said promise me one thing these other scammers didn't wake up at 3.30 am to get in their first three workouts of the day. Some Ashton Hall vibes with this one. These guys don't have the work ethic like me. That's why they have to revert to scamming people on the internet. To become successful at anything in life the right way, you must outwork fucking everybody. So it starts out by saying these other scammers, so I am a scammer and I am a better scammer than the other scammers. So that's Sean Perry coming from the South. But you guys talked about it. 

14:42
There was a little bit of pushback that came to Sean Perry, excuse me, to the elf spaces recently. Here we have some of the pushback, but there was also like a lot of people at this. There's a tweet here from Mozzie which has a picture, or was actually a video, of the altercation. The parking lot sportsbook conciliated, kind of came out of nowhere at sports bk consig saying, uh, picture time from Vegas. Never seen anything like this, this shit, in my whole life. Um, kind of on the outside it's just watching all the chaos ensue. I really liked the photo. Then gets a photo with Amanda Vance. 

15:15
But there has been a little bit of pushback. Uh, fan at fan boy zero, eight, six, zero, three, two, four, four wrote a song about song about the distaste for the spaces, showing a little bit of animosity towards Elf. Spinfluencer had a very, very long tweet talking about how the spaces have kind of descended into a little bit of chaos, talking about how it kind of started out with calling out scammers. Now Elf is starting to align with a lot of these people and that Elf is profiting from both sides in the gambling. Twitter divide the thoughts like as much as it's. A very long tweet, 82,000 people. When I took a screenshot of this set a few hours ago leading up to the show, almost 83,000 views. And then also Book it Trent got involved saying we really give attention to the wrong people on here. So there has been a little bit of pushback. Do you think that else kind of reputation has taken a hit the last couple of weeks? 

16:12 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
I think and I want to relate this to like we were talking at the beginning about um doing my, did that fight and all these things For instance, when I cover the mob, people all the time reach out to me and say why do you give these people a platform? What are you trying to do here? I'm a content creator. My job is to create podcasts and content, and I think what we have to start to realize about Elf is I think that's what he is trying to do. He's trying to become a content creator and you're going to have to delve into some things that maybe you don't necessarily want to be in, and I think he started to realize that. You know, yeah, the show initially was fun and we got views, but we could take it to a whole nother level by doing stuff like fights and and again, I, I see his brain in the way he's doing it and I I think people were just so used to how it was. 

16:56 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
But you're gonna make a whole lot more money with with fights and arguments and stuff like that yeah, I think the whole like elf, what you've got to lose, that like the spin fluencer, like principle of we're gonna call out these scams. That was never the intention, right, it was to grow his spaces. And because he wants to get into the content space and like spin fluencer, I know he jumped on the show one of the nights. Yeah, this week didn't go over particularly well. I think elf gave him the boot. He got his feelings a little hurt, uh there, and then he comes out with that diatribe um, so I, I don't, if you're, if you're going to the spaces, like this is like the moral high ground of gambling twitter, let's, uh, let's put all these people to roost. It's just you're doing it for entertainment. 

17:44
I will will say, though, the second time I was, I was, I was all in the first time, I know our circle back one covered it this week like the original fight, the whole production, it coming together. I was in, I was locked in. The second time around felt a little I don't want to say fake, it felt forced. I really wasn't that into it. I thought it was kind of a flop the whole. Second time they tried to get it together and it appears they're trying again to get it together. I think I'm kind of out on Mozzie Perry 3, 4, 5, 6, whatever they're trying to do. 

18:23 - Flup (Co-host)
I disagree with you there. Regardless if it was fake or not, it was still good content and it was hilarious to me to see, like what we spoke about earlier, is perry not showing with the money that creates a whole content storyline? I thought that was great and this elf with the morals thing, like any first of all spinfluencer anytime you post a tweet that long, it's done. If I see something more than like two paragraphs and it's not like something I want to learn about, I'm I'm skipping over it. It was way too long. But with with with elfin is more high ground and everything like that. I I have no issue with giving a scammer as a platform and whatnot, but what I do have an issue with is people were asking tough questions and elf was letting them answer it initially and now he's kind of blocked it, like the amanda vance um interview. He just blocked every single tough question. 

19:14 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
He had man of the library and we're gonna get to that one, by the way, but but yeah, it's uh, they've taken a turn, they've taken a turn. It's different when you turn. 

19:23 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
It's different when you start spending, like you know, when you meet somebody in person and then you're spending days with them or you're like sleeping at their house. There's a different level of connection there that kind of crosses the boundary of trying to be like this, you know, intermediary, where you're just interviewing the show. It's like now it's like an actual friend. So people thought they were going to come on and I don't know what did you want to hear from a band of bands that she, you know she had? 

19:50 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
and that's the thing. 

19:50
Like I said that recently, like I don't know if there's anything in particular that like I would ever want to hear her talk to me about, like I think she just she has issues. She is, and, like you know, I I do think it's funny that, like you know, she just has her things. This is what she does. We're also trying to be moral in a group of people that aren't morally like great, like this is a, this is a group of people, and me included. Like you got to do what you got to do on here, right, it's not always easy, it's not always something you want to hear. 

20:20
I will give Elf credit, and I have said this publicly and I'll say it again the fact that he's been able to do this this quickly is very impressive, man, um, I just hope that you know there are some really bad people, particularly Sean and and I think we we saw in the last 24 hours, I think even even he might, elf may be going yeah, he like turned on Elf in the last since, like before, right even before Jacob could get this. 

20:43 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
You know what together on? 

20:44 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
the well. Well, we got. I did that. It was a late edition, but we, that is, that we aren't going to cover that as well. Uh, what I want to go into next, elf was not a fan of some of the backlash that he's been getting over the content and tweeted this out. Uh, he says, on gambling twitter, there are people who create content and people whose content is shitting on other people's content. There are pages that literally wouldn't exist if other people didn't create content for them to shit on. So when he posted this, I mean I had to feel like, you know, the circle back was getting called out, maybe a little bit, with something like that getting posted. However, I think, like for all walks of content, like a lot of it does stem from reacting to other stuff. Like you know, I think, about sports content, like there are people who play sports professionally and people who cover it and they wouldn't have a job, but the sports were played professionally. I don't think that's a perfect no, no, jacob. 

21:34 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Jacob, literally every piece of content people make for the most part are because of other things that have went on. Whether you're reacting to a game that happened last night, or you're reacting to something that happened in history, or or whatever, I mean that that's what it is. 

21:49 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
That's what content is essentially yeah, that's his whole show, that's a. That's like the spider-man meme pointing back at you like that's this whole show, is what, what? Like shitting on other people's, like content creators and scammers and pick artists. So I I don't know. I mean what elf kind of tried to create back, like tried to create his own original stream content with some other stuff, like the whole arming. That didn't really go too well. So now he's kind of moved on. I know I get he found his niche now, but it's the same exact thing he just said he was tweeting about I didn't understand that as well. 

22:22 - Flup (Co-host)
The spider-man thing is the first thing I I thought of. It's just like if all these scammers didn't exist that he could attack and have his attack and yes, our show is about his con, his content, so he's got that there. 

22:36
But what is his show about? And and also, I think he wanted to get all this credit for building the fights and he wanted to have hear all the positive things but didn't like hearing when it went negative and people. That's a great point and that's when he was. That's when he posted that you can't. You can't have it both ways. You have to respect it. People don't like watch the kim kardashian as a role model. They watch it for the entertainment value. Yeah, and they and they shit on her. 

23:02 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
You the last week or so is the first time. If you go to the, you know the comments on either his spaces or just the tweets he posts. For the first month there's a plus of his show. It was like elf. This is great, it's phenomenal. First time the heat has kind of been in his own kitchen type of thing of where he's getting a lot more hate. He's getting a lot of uh, people are tagging him saying you know you're a fraud, you're a scammer and that and I, you know what, like when you're, you're reading a lot of that and you're chronically online, as you kind of have to be, as we all are in this show. Um, you know that that starts to, I think, get under your skin a little bit, but he needs. 

23:41 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
but he needs to go through it. And if he goes through it and he accepts it and says, okay, I got to accept the good and the bad, I can't let it bother me. I mean, I want to make this clear. At one point Joey Kanish and I have said some bad shit to each other. But I'll tell you right now, I'm sure Joey Kanish slept fine that night and so did I. You know, you just have to. 

24:01 - Flup (Co-host)
Of course, you slept nice. 

24:03 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
You got a hundred thousand dollars well, no, but, but even even way after that. 

24:07 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
It's like you know you guys had beefed two weeks ago when he said you couldn't run a a mile in eight minutes or whatever exactly but no, I mean, that's the same. 

24:16 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Like you gotta. I I totally agree with you where, like, if you're gonna do public content in any forum, the bigger it gets, there's always gonna be people that are shitting on you or bringing you down or saying negative stuff. 

24:26 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
So, yeah, I, I agree, like he's gonna gotta start taking or just ignoring it um and I always say this when it comes to content okay, I could find tomorrow the cure for cancer. Okay, we can agree, that is a really great thing. But there'll be someone on twitter that will whine and say you fucking fat fuck yeah, you didn't do it fast enough. 

24:47 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, you're doing quick enough, so many people died, you know my uncle's a cancer surgeon. You just cost him his job. 

24:54 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Fuck you yeah yeah it's, you're always gonna have someone upset at you on amanda vance. 

25:00 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
You guys, uh, you're itching to discuss, uh, that that previous tweet that I pulled up, by the way, which was the one about the people who just create kind of another content. That was actually a reply to this tweet that Elf had about Amanda Vance. So he accompanies the tweet with a photo of Amanda Vance either sleeping or passed out in the back of a taxi or a car after their supposed date at at the hockey game. A taxi or a car after their supposed date at the hockey game. And the plan was for after the game they were supposed to go back to one of their houses or hotel to do a spaces and Amanda Vance was supposed to do a Q&A. People were upset that the Q&A didn't end up happening because apparently no-transcript, she locked her door and wouldn't come out and wouldn't do the space and when she did come out to get something to drink, she refused to do any of the questions. So people were upset about that. 

25:56
Elf had a very interesting reply to that saying. I feel awkward even reading this. I can't believe he actually tweeted this. This is a message to the idiots on gambling Twitter who have never been on a date with a girl and then woke up and decided to talk shit on my name. When a girl is drunk and doesn't want to do something, you don't force her to. That includes a live stream in front of over a thousand people. I yeah, this one caught a bit of heat. Um, I don't know, how do you guys feel about the that? This is what I've said. 

26:26 - Flup (Co-host)
This is very hypocritical in my point of view is he spent weeks hyping this up. He was going to Florida, he was going to do the Q&A and I kind of agree with Nadeau, I don't want to hear about like Amanda Vance's life story. What I want to see is an interaction like someone asking her question and she's squirming or giving an idiotic answer, and it's a funny interaction. That's what I wanted to see and that's what people wanted to see and it was very hypocritical to hype it all up. He gets the show and then he doesn't do the Q&A and doesn't comment anything about it. He didn't send any other dates, like hey, it's going to happen in a day or two. And then when it did happen the next day, he had man in the Library blocking all the difficult questions and man in the Library was like, well, let's hear about how she was a cheerleader for the Dolphins, I don't care about that. Like, I want to see some funny interactions. 

27:18 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, I don't know where, like the Vance stuff I don't know why he hitched it away. Of all the girls that are in the, you know the sports betting twitter space, uh, I don't. Also the whole like. Oh, you know, like the, I mean the trying to like you don't force a girl to do number one. She, she drunk 24. I've never she wakes up and she has a 12 pack of miller. Like I've never seen. Somebody like this is like. 

27:42 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I mean maybe you should should have dropped her off at a facility or something there was that a photo of uh l sean perry and a few people I'd like I like a boardroom table and uh, it seems to be just a candid photo, and there was a filler light. 

27:55 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, they're having a meeting. She's double fisting millers. 

27:58 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Everyone else is having like orange juice and like breakfast and she's having like I want to feel like I want to feel like that was like planted like stage, but I, I don't know, I can't, because I don't know I didn't. I want to feel like that was like planted, like staged, but I don't know, I can't, I don't think I'm going to give them enough credit. 

28:12 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, I got to tell you there's a lot of stuff in this story that's staged. I don't know if Vance's, you know, consumption is staged. 

28:22 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
We talk a lot about Elf as like kind of a glazer in these spaces. The man in Amanda Library doesn't get enough shit for this because he is completely mooching off of these spaces, like he is latching on to Elf and trying to get him to carry him up. He's moderating this space for Amanda and you would think, like Amanda Library, like the stances he's had in the past, amanda Vance would be something that he'd want to like, try and bury with one of these spaces. Amanda Vance would be something that he'd want to try and bury with one of these spaces. Amanda Vance, like we first introduced her on this show weeks and weeks ago, she's a pick seller who has a website that perhaps had fake reviews talk about how good the picks were. Based on the Frequently Asked Questions page of the website, we can pretty much say that they're not winning picks. She's a scammer who sells picks. That's flat out what it is. 

29:11
But when people want to actually ask about her betting, mandel Library shuts it down. But when questions do get in, she cites trends, situational angles to things that an actual winning pick wouldn't usually be going through. And then she also mentioned that because she attended game seven of the Stanley Cup finals. She's a really good better. It caused some really good content. Mike Vivian kind of started it off saying as a range of World Series game in 2011,. I know a lot about on betting and a lot of people posted photos of them at significant sporting events saying they have the biggest edge. But that Q&A that she actually did what she talked about. 

29:50 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
It was heavily moderated by man of the library and, um, it seems like within the hour she was sober at the start, but within the hour it kind of appeared like, or sounded at least like, she wasn't sober at that point I mean library he just the clout is a hell of a drug and I think he you know also I'll be honest with you, I don't know if Library like when he got into the penthouse the first time around, the guy looked like he, you know, and never you know, stepped inside a place that had you know carpet and drapes before in his life. So I think he's gotten a little bit of a taste here of you know some attention. He's able to go to some nice places. He's eating, you know, having lunch with you know Bryce Hall and that and gambling with them. So yeah, I think the whole library he's really living on this sauce. 

30:44 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Notoriety is a hell of a drug. This sauce notoriety is a hell of a drug, okay. There are people, okay, that are willing to go to the ends of the earth to be noticed, right, you ever see that documentary? Don't fuck with cats. That guy, that guy that did that. His whole obsession was I want to be known by somebody and I'm willing to do whatever I have to do for you to talk about me. Now, these guys aren't doing that stuff, but notoriety is big and it happened real quick. For some of them. It's just going to be about how they go now. Right, because they got the platform, um, but yeah, library, I mean he, he's another one who I thought had a real win with the whole bathroom thing, yeah, and then and then he's like at the table with them, like yucking it up and be like he should have just, you know, exited, stayed right there and just kept it going. 

31:32 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
And now he's like, oh, you know, me and me and Greer, we go way back. So, yeah he's, I agree with you, he could have just took the win and, you know, headed out. And instead now he's you know he's part of the table there, you know, have it out. And instead now he's you know he's part of the table there. 

31:51 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Uh, you know, have a sipping on, you know orange juice with the man. Here's what I think, uh, all these folks need to do. I think they all just need to go home for a couple of days, get some sleep, and and and and and survey the situation, get some sun, you know. I think that would help them all immensely. 

32:07 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Alone, not by it seems like they're just trying to keep this running, like this whole, like we're just going to keep it churning, like we found something here and I'm not sure where it exactly leads and our leads to anywhere, like you, know this when you're at, let's say you're sitting at a poker table and you can't, you hit every, you're winning's. 

32:33 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Say you're sitting at a poker table and you hit every, you're winning every hand, yeah, yeah, everybody's. You're bluffing everybody, you're, you're on a run, you don't want to leave. You'll stay there till 9 am, if you need to, until the game breaks and you either leave with all the money and with even more money, or you leave broke and you went, you took you, you screwed around for too long and we'll see if that happens. 

32:49 - Flup (Co-host)
It's still yet to be seen if it's going to be a failure or it's going to keep rolling. I mean, everyone keeps saying this is the end. This is the end. 

32:55 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, the end of the Elf Show, and then there's 1,500 people watching. 

32:58 - Flup (Co-host)
Yeah, exactly exactly. So you've got to respect the hustle. I think he's got a great hustle mindset but eventually he'll push it too far, or maybe he won't. 

33:07 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
I think though he is, and I think, like all of us, I think he is tired of Mr Perry. I think he is, I think he is grown tired of it, no matter how much. 

33:19 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That's the latest thing here. Apparently Sean Perry, I'm officially done with the Elf show. He kicked the wrong motherfucker out of the show. It's my fights. I can talk about my fights. I don't need some dudes who I have no clue who they are, with 5 000 followers talking over me. At the end of the day, you clowns will talk about me regardless. 

33:37 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
I don't need you so now, by the way, jacob, this is a guy with 18 000 followers. It's not like he has a million. This is a guy who, in two days on youtube, has like a thousand views on a video. Like we're not talking about bryce hall here. This guy acts like he's mr beast half the time, you know yeah, I would. 

33:57 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
And you know what, even if some of this is stick or played up, you they do. You mentioned it off the top. Perry is the level of narcissist that he will step, no matter who it is probably his own mother in the club if he, if he didn't pay the tab, he'd probably say she ran out on it like he will stab anybody in the back for content, for cloud, no matter what level it has to get to. 

34:20 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Um, and and I mean this is, this is another example, a blind and deaf person can see that he needs this way more than anyone else needs him. 

34:30 - Flup (Co-host)
Yeah, I don't, I agree, I agree with that, but I don't think elf is necessarily done with sean perry. I mean, this is the 14th time someone and they've come back every single time and you tell me right now yeah if, if perry and mozzie actually put on a fight, the elf wouldn't show up and elf wouldn't stream it. I mean, let's, let's be real here. He would be there for the content. If Sean Perry can provide content, elf will have him back on. 

34:55 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Here's what I would do if I were elf. As someone who did this right, If I were elf, I would try to personally fight myself because he could take that. 

35:06 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah. 

35:07 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
And you know who better to fight him than Elf? You know, I mean it's. 

35:13 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That would be humongous. 

35:16 - Flup (Co-host)
I feel like it's kind of too early. Yeah, you can't do that. 

35:21 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Maybe that's where it's leading. Maybe he's in the gym training right now to get. But I agree they need a new storyline, right? The mozzie perry storyline is is getting old and I think people are getting sick of it. It's got to be like what's the next thing? And I mean they do, you've been in the content like it's it's. It's hard to perpetually find that next thing to keep people's interest yeah, yeah, I mean it is. 

35:48 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
I think I think you also have to. The good thing about people that do content, the good people that that are built to last you. You cannot force things. You have to just cause people see through that right. They see through like, oh, this is staged, or whatever. I think that's why a lot of the Tik Tokers you see like they are cool for a while and then they just kind of well, you have to be like you got to be natural with it. 

36:11 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Last thing on the space before we move to our next topic here. Man of the Library moderated that. One got into a little bit of hot water with a tweet that surfaced from at Mobbin44 on Twitter. 

36:23 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
This is a long tweet. 

36:25 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
This is a long tweet. I will summarize it a little bit uh for you guys here. But uh, essentially, man at library was called out here for owing people money and for a troubled past of posting plays on twitter, losing those plays, having those and then deleting those plays. We had an example on the show maybe a month ago where he gave out a money line play, got absolutely destroyed on it, then deleted the tweet, got called out for it and tried to make a joke out of it. But apparently man the library here owes somebody 1500, apparently owns, owes a lot of people money. But in particular, here at one stop, choco underscore choco on twitter informed mobbin that he knew library in real life and to not associate with him, and showed me the text messages of himself letting library borrow $1,500 and then getting ghosted. So I think, like basically like everything I've seen of people who have personal interaction with Mandate Library are completely aware that this is somebody that you should stay away from. And, kanish, you've said the same as well. 

37:31 - Flup (Co-host)
Yeah, you go ahead. 

37:34 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
No, I'm just going to confirm, like there's been some people I know in Vegas that would also on a smaller scale than Sean Perry, but that Mantle Library's past history does not particularly put him in good light. 

37:52 - Flup (Co-host)
I got to say I hate this kind of stuff because do they provide receipts? Like I hate. I don't like this stuff where they're like oh, this person owes me, or I heard this person owes me Because you can just freely slander someone's name without receipts. If there's no receipts in, in my opinion you can't take it credibly. And if I was acting unless I see receipt, I would say assume that libraries paid all his debts. 

38:16 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
I need to see an actual receipt and I, this guy, this guy reached out to me and he he approached me on a space and says how are you going to stand there and not care about this? You're all about integrity, this and that. And I said well, number one, I I don't even know if you're telling me the truth. You can say anything. Number two and I know Kanish knows this, he's been around a long time. I don't know what some of you folks need to realize Stop doing monetary business with people you've never met. Okay, because it's real simple for a lot of people on here to just get rid of their account and start a new one. Stop doing business with people like this. Again, I don't, I don't understand it. Oh, I'll take your bets and you can go up six thousand, but you may just not pay me and I have no recourse about it. Like, what sense does that make you almost deserve to be? 

39:09 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
you know there is an element of like, especially people with these. You know it's not like man. A library's reputation has been Sterling for a long time. Then he just crashed out. It'd been bad for a long time and then you know you're, you're, you're doing business with that guy. 

39:24
So I agree, there's some self accountability there Also, as you in the poker community, especially back in the day. But even though currently there is always, you know, I'll bet you fifty thousand on this, I'll stake you one hundred thousand on this and just a lot of word of mouth. You know staking and debt, that that ends up in a lot of bad places. So, yeah, I listen, I'm not'm not gonna say the guy deserved to get screwed, but it's not surprising. Uh, and and and, as a you know, if you're, if you what, if what you know about man in the library right now, from here going forward, from what you've seen in public, if you're ever doing any kind of business or staking or like ammo, then that that's your own. That's like. That's like showing up and fighting sean perry and thinking he's gonna wire you the money if you lose, like yeah, you're your own fault there. 

40:15 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So far in this episode we talked about a lot of people who are scamming in this space. We're about to talk about a brand that's potentially scamming their players in this space as well. But before we go any further, make sure you guys support the channel by smashing that like button. Help driving us up in the youtube algorithm and getting this show out to new people. Also, make sure you're subscribed to the channel. We are putting so much work into bringing you this content completely for free. All we ask in return is that you do support the channel with the like, with the subscription, and, hey, maybe turn the notification bell on as well, so you never miss out on any of the content. After all, circle back keeps coming at you now twice a week. But let's get back to the show and keep moving with things. Well, the do mention doing monetary biz with somebody that you met online, but how about doing monetary business with an unregulated sports book? 

41:05
There's been some allegations that have come out against the flip sports book People. Many people are reporting on Twitter that flip is shutting down and are not paying out the balances on people's accounts at J far too Nice tweeted this. I promise I'm not trying to stomp on people who got stiffed on flip. That shit is awful, but as a sharp better you have to start stop parking your funds in a clearly dubious place. The first Fliff debacle years ago was a sign enough to not trust him with a cent. Evbetsma followed up by saying alternate point. The risk may have been worth it when they had really soft lines, but people should have been smarter than leaving 10,000 plus in there. I'm hoping bettors can get their money back. Personally, with the new odd provider, I'm pulling almost everything out of flip, but I made a conscious decision when they had easily beatable lines that I would accept the risk of them trying to steal my money. Have you guys-? 

41:57 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
I'm gonna let yeah go ahead, I'm gonna let you guys have this, but I'll just say this this is like being a coke dealer and getting robbed and you're running to the police and complaining there's not a lot you can do. Don't do it. Don't bet with regular, unregulated books. Don't bet with books that aren't. 

42:18 - Flup (Co-host)
You know you as that guy said you kind of deserve it. I gotta disagree with you completely, nadu. I know joey can probably say tons of stories about getting stiff from pphs and and bookies and all sorts of things. If you're not taking risks and getting stiffed a little, you're probably not being aggressive enough with your betting. The flip lines were very soft, very beatable. You can earn a lot of money in it. 

42:39
It's a simple calculation. Is the chance of getting stiffed and losing your money enough to overcome the expected value you're earning? Probably not. So you should be just hammering away and doing business with people. I also disagree with that point because you got to have risky people to do business with if you want to earn a lot, because sometimes it works out and sometimes you can earn a lot of money and that's kind of how you can build the softest outs and get the most money down. So you have to be smart with your calculations. But it's funny. I was talking with my partners the other day. We I don't think we're getting stiffed enough because I don't think we're taking enough risks. Did you ever bet through flip? No, I never bet flip, no yeah me. 

43:21 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
So I got, I got. I'm gonna kind of hedge the between the, the two points. Here is what one. This was the first. Sweepstakes books was the first time, even if you take out like people want to say offshore gambling in that. But really a lot of offshores have you know they do have to get a gambling license. It may be through curacao or something. They do have to have a gambling license. They do have to have a little bit more of a reputation. A lot of them have been around for a long time. 

43:47
The sweepstakes books was the first time in kind of like what I would say my professional betting career where I thought there was legitimate risk of something like this occurring, where there is no, they have no gambling license, there is no regulatory body for these. There is really no. I would call public discord around, like around who's backing these companies, who owns these companies, what are their financials? And when the thing started to go a little south there, it seemed like they were leading up to a point here where what you've got recently is how can we figure out a way to not pay out some of these people that have really run up a balancing on us and it's like boom. If you like, it could be as simple as if you've used the same IP for two accounts. You are multi accounting. We're shutting down your account, we're terminating. You violated our terms of service. There goes your balance. 

44:44
That's, I think, some of the and again, there are some other angles with the sweepstakes. When I was first looking into it because I'll be honest with you, if I was young and hustling, you know, starting on my bankroll, that would have been super, super attractive I probably would have taken Espelup with saying some of the risks there, just kind of knowing some of the similarities. And in the state I'm in, sweepstakes were not allowed, so I kind of had a a firewall there. That would have made it even more difficult. But there was really some, some early signs with these sweepstakes books and a couple of them like smaller ones, even went under that you really didn't know if the money was good there. 

45:23 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
I'll just kind of relate it back to what we were saying about certain people. Dealing with certain people, you have to realize. Realize you know there's a history out on them. We get who they are and they're going to do this same with these. That's more what I was saying. Like you have to understand you are taking a major risk and I get where you're coming from. You do got to take risks. But you know when you do get burned, you know it's just kind of it's like spillage. You know it's just a cost of doing business. You know, breaking in Breaking Bad Walter White talked about that. He couldn't understand it early on. How are we going to let people steal from us and Jesse says, well, it's just part of the game. You got to accept the spillage. You're going to have to accept that there's going to be certain profits you're not going to get, because that's just the cost of doing business. 

46:00 - Flup (Co-host)
I agree with that. I would agree with that. But my point mainly you can do it smart. You can deposit money, bet and then try to withdraw as fast as you can and understand that your money is at risk. If you're depositing tens of thousands in there, betting every once in a while and not withdrawing, okay, you're being crazy, but you have to accept the fact that you're going to lose and get your money locked in there some of the time. 

46:25 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I think it's kind of like you hit a certain level where that risk is worthwhile for betting, but I won't. I won't pretend to have experience in that, but maybe something that is more of my alley here a tweet that came from Bill Krackenberger on Twitter. He's been a guest in the Circles Off podcast before pretty recently as well and he's a veteran in sports. He's a veteran in the space but sparked up a discussion on Twitter when he tweeted this. He tweeted I have a friend who loves to bet parlays. He just did seven parlays in a row and then kind of scrolled through his season account and his bet history to showcase the wins and says it's over now. I can never convince him his way of betting is wrong. So kind of sparked a debate about betting parlays. This theme kind of goes on in sports betting. People win a bunch of parlays and we think it might actually be bad for sports bettors to win a lot of parlays in the early run. Let's start with you, flubb. How do you feel about that conversation? 

47:24 - Flup (Co-host)
I agree, if you're a recreational bettor, winning a parlay is the absolute worst thing to do. I can relate it to a bad experience I had when I was coming up in poker. I just instantly started winning at the 1-3, 2-5 stakes and I jumped up in stakes too fast and too aggressive and got smacked down and I went bust early on and had to work a little bit to save up my bankroll. It's because I won too fast, too early and it's going to cause a lot of problems down the line. 

47:54 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Crack I got it. And Fluff I agree with what you're saying there. I thought you outlaid it, krackenberger, to me. I know this isn't exactly the point of where we're going. He is now. He's kind of doing a pseudo elf, like a boomer elf spaces type of role where, like he's trying to be the good guy that shows, you know, like I'm helping out the little man and you know, like I'm going to make sure, like I'm the man of the people on that. He's been doing this role for a long time. And then he's the guy that's also selling at Crackling and also taking a job at Wager Talk, selling at crackly and also taking a job at wager top and also, like you know, probably wouldn't, uh, you know, throw a nickel to that guy, guy who was like on the side of the street there. So I just I think crack does a really nice job playing his role. 

48:42 - Flup (Co-host)
um, it's very inauthentic to me he's like like a cheaper version of Fezzik, a lesser version of Fezzik. Yes, yes a less annoying Fezzik. 

48:54 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
He's much better speaker than Fezz. He's got a little bit more sauce to him. He can tell a great story. He was on Circles Off and he's a great storyteller phenomenal and not if you meet him in person, like good guy. But this whole like ah, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm going to, you know, do my Vegas thing, and he's on visa and telling you know, trying to stick it to the cause. He knows what he's doing. I'll put it like that Um, doing that, but it's a little bit much with the whole. Um, I'm trying to help the little guy I've done. 

49:31 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
I've done my own, joey knish, literally kind of thing. You shouldn't do this. This is a bad idea. You're not gonna win. You know, you try to do that, you try to keep you for a while, but I've gotten to the point over the last couple of weeks and months that it's just like you know what do, what you want to do. Right, you want to sit there and you want to bet 10 parlays. You go to any sports book in america and 10 people are in line. Nine are going to be betting 19 parlays and they're going to look at me and say, wait, you're only betting one game. How you gonna win doing that? 

49:59
You know, I'm now the minority, which is fine, but I'm done sitting here trying to beat joey knish the character because people are going to do they. They're gonna do regardless. They have to fail. That's just the truth. Just like flop talked about, he went up and bet. You know he got into 510 or 1020, whatever he was doing, he got crushed and he had to get smacked in the fucking head, yeah, and went back and said you know, I learned. These people have to literally learn and there's there's plenty of resources. 

50:26
You either listen or you don't. 

50:29 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Years ago I was way more, you know I would call you, know I was better at Twitter than as a spin influencer. But same type of thing where, like, I was like going to call you know, I was going to call out these scammers and really get after it and try, and, you know, save people and I kind of got with you where it's like at some point you're yelling at clouds and for every one person you might help out, there's 10,000 people that are not going to change their habits. So, you know, listen, I guess now that it's easier for me to look at some of this stuff now is more entertainment, just because I agree with you. I think people got to learn for themselves and you got to learn the hard way and that's kind of the only way most people are going to ever retain or listen. 

51:10 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So far in this episode, we've talked a lot about people who have scammed others in this space. We've talked about a brand that's potentially scammed its players, and we're about to talk a little bit about bankroll management. Well, something that is absolutely not a scam and something that absolutely can help you with your bankroll management and is a fantastic tool for all bettors, from recreational all the way up to pro, is the edge boost visa debit card. It gives you instant access to extra betting capital with zero interest and unlimited withdrawals, so you can keep your funds liquid and flexible across multiple sportsbooks and betting platforms. And hey, we just discussed maybe you don't want all of your funds tied up in a specific sports book for a long period of time. You want to keep on taking that money out and filling where you need it. Well, that's where the Edgeboost Visa debit card is absolutely going to come clutch. With $250,000 in daily deposit limits, you're not constrained by small transfer limits. You can deploy your bankroll exactly where you need it, when you need it. Whether you're taking advantage of off-market lines or capitalizing on promos, edge Boost makes sure you never miss an opportunity. Edge Boost also lets you segment your spending, keeping your betting transactions separate from your primary checking account. This helps you practice proper bankroll management while avoiding interference with your credit. And don't forget, edge Boost rewards you with cash back on qualified usage up to 0.5% based on your spend. More betting power, more control and money back in your pocket. What's not to love? You're losing money by not taking advantage of this. Get the edge boost Visa debit card today using the link in the description. 

52:40
Next up some more conversations about a little bit about bankroll management and a little bit about pick selling as well. China Maniac another person who has been a guest on the Circles Off podcast, sharp Better, saying online that winning and gambling is one thing. Holding on to the money is an entirely different skill set that most fail at. If someone is selling you their edge, it is likely they mismanage their money somewhere. So again, perhaps a little bit of a question about pick sellers saying if you have an Edge, what is the need to sell picks? Because you should be making tons of money off of your betting. So is selling picks always a red flag or are there legitimate reasons for profitable betters to do it? And how important is bankroll management compared to simply finding an edge? 

53:28 - Flup (Co-host)
Yeah, I can take this one. I think there's very little reasons to sell picks. The best reason I could think of is, if you're a newer, better the small bankroll that you can't size and you have an edge and you can maximize profits that way. The counter I would say is you can. If you truly were that, you could likely find free roll deals. I've offered free roll deals to originators that had an edge and they've built it that way. So rather than sell picks, they're effectively selling their edge to me. So I would disagree that you could sell an edge. That means you've mismanaged money. You could just have a small bankroll and a market that you could get a lot down on. Is there legitimate reasons to sell picks? It's hard to see one. Um, either either the person is not good enough to scale possible or the picks aren't aren't winning well, I'd say I. 

54:22 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
The other piece of it is just um, I've seen a lot of. When you say mismanage their money, that's what I agree with. They thought either they were making, you know, they thought the gravy train was going to last forever. I mean, there's been some years, like forget, a couple of years where I had absolutely great years and now you know, some of the low hanging fruit has dried up and some of you know some of like the easy, easy liquidity at books has dried up and you know, this year I'm not going to make as much money as I did, you know, two years ago, three years ago. I can already tell that. 

54:56
So I think some people get you. You know you kind of get used to being in sales. Like, if you're a sales, sometimes you're going to have a few hot months, hot quarters go up, but you need to keep your lifestyle at, you know, a moderate level and kind of bank that extra money where people you know you see it where you want to go live, like Sean Perry, you're going to run out of it real quick and then you're having to do desperate stuff. You know people get desperate. That's how they end up blown at all or going broke or owing a bunch of money out on the street, is they kind of push it a little too much or they don't realize, or they adjust their lifestyle to always making that you know high-end results there and either some negative variance uh comes their way, or the edge dries up, or some outs dry up and then then all of a sudden you're you're in a real bad situation. Um, but they do, I know you're, you know you'd call it. 

55:44 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Yeah, I'll explain this on the flow yeah. 

55:47
So here's how I look at it. Okay, I have an innate ability to tell stories and to explain things. Okay, I am a content creator who gambles. I've never come on the internet and said I am a sharp, you're gonna win all this money betting me. I barely even advertise. Okay, at the end of the day, there there are two things I handicapped college football and college basketball. There are 364 teams in one, 134 in the other, and most normal people that you see at sports books don't have the time to sit there and go through it. 

56:15
I have a schematics, top-down approach that I feel is worth. When I sit there every day with this mic and go through the card for these people each day, I tell them why I would do this, why I wouldn't do that, and they ultimately do what they want to do. I think there's a value in that. Am I going to sit here and tell you I've won every year? Nope, I've never claimed to. 

56:34
I win, I lose, and I will say at this point I don't think I've ever gotten it. I didn't think I'd ever get to it. But even experiencing some of the things I've seen on here, you know, in the last month or two, I don't know that I want to be included with people like that, to be fair, because I think there are a few really good people out there that do know what they're doing and do maybe help certain people. That said, I feel like in a way, I'm kind of in a group that I don't want to be in anymore. Do I feel I should sell picks? I think I can make a case for it, but I get where you guys are both coming from 100%. 

57:10 - Flup (Co-host)
As long as you can honestly say, and if people ask, are these picks winning long-term? If you say probably not or I can't guarantee it, that's reasonable. I hate the people that sell picks say, hey, you'll win with me, then they can't provide documented records. They don't have anything like that. That's I don't like about. If you're saying I'll give you recaps, I'll talk. Talk about what I'm thinking. I don't know if my picks will win, no problem at all, because you're being transparent. I think grp is a prime example of that as well. He's being very transparent with how he's advertising. I wouldn't call him a scammer. 

57:42 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
No Flop. I'll say this no time will you ever hear me ever say I hate when people say lock this. I hate that shit. This is gambling. We're going to lose, we're going to win. I look at right now. Do you know what I am in this NCAA tournament 2-12. I can't hide from that. It is what it is. I had a great season up until two, three weeks ago. You can't hide from it. I think you're right, as long as you're transparent, at least to me. I'm not out here selling dreams that I'm the greatest in the world and I got millions of dollars. That's where I think this genre gets to me. I get off the boat. 

58:22 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
And there is an element of people that I think they just want to like. You know what, if you're, uh, if you're a hashtag nado fan and you want to be on what he's on and you know you want to hear him explain the games, so and it's like, hey, I'm gonna, you know, join the patreon to so I can root for the same stuff there's. There's just is what it is. There's a market for that and, like I said, you can either buy it and, if you can, you know if you lose, you lose. If you can re-up, you know it's like. 

58:47
That's where I've now kind of like shifted the onus, as we just talked about, onto the person. Um, because you can scream all you know like there's going to be people that still will go out there and you know we could scream on this show or online that sean perry's a scammer and you shouldn't do his stuff for every day, all day. There's still going to be some people out there that go buy it, that get caught up in the glitz and go buy it. So, to me, I'm at the point of just like people can do what they want to do. 

59:16 - Flup (Co-host)
What I think kind of I've come to realize is people don't even mind if the picks they're buying are losing, sometimes, as long as people are transparent. Look at book it with trent. He's admitted that he's losing and people still tail him he's not selling, at least, though he's not selling. He's not selling. But why would someone tail someone if they know that they're losing? 

59:36 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
but I also look, and that's a good point. I also put the truth in the fact of the same people that I've had with me for two, three, four years now are still there and not one of them has ever come out and said oh, Nate Duke comes on there and says he's undefeated when he went 0-3 yesterday. It doesn't work like. This is not a business you can hide in. You got to be transparent. You got to be out there. You got to be with it. And look, I'm also not one want me to. And I tell them I'm not interested, I'm happy with the group of people I have. If we can all make a little, Do you know how? I'll put you into my mind for a second the fact that I'm 2 and 12, do you know how much it bothers me? It doesn't matter that I lose my own money, it fucking kills me. Certain people expect me to do well and I'm not. That bothers me a lot. I'm killing myself on my head over it. 

01:00:30 - Flup (Co-host)
I've got to say that kind of stuff really bothers me from Pixar. If it really bothered you, refund the money. Sure, you're right, go ahead, fezzik, does this all the time. I'll give everyone a dinner. They don't want the money back. If you truly felt, refund the picks that they bought for your thing. And the other thing I'll say is I think there's people attack all pick sellers the same, then that's ridiculous. I'll be honest, jeff, I don't think you should sell picks and I wouldn't recommend anyone buy it. I have no shame in saying that. That being said, said, if you compare yourself to someone like amanda vance or like beau wagner, it's ridiculous. If people put you guys in the same category. That's, that's stupid. Because I mean, I've answered about wagner 100 times. 

01:01:17 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
worse than what, than what you're you're doing and I do want to make this clear flop and the people will tell you this the I think it was a few people. They signed up the week of the tournament where I was terrible. 

01:01:28 - Flup (Co-host)
I did refund them that's good, that's I like, like I I have. 

01:01:31 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
I'm for, you know, if you really let me, the whole season. I had a winning season up until then, but I, I have no problem doing that. I'm not here to, I'm not. I'm not going to make millions of dollars selling picks. I'm never going to want to be that person. If I wanted to, I already did it. I could do it. I could fucking shout it to the roofs. Come home, hey, I'm selling picks. You ever hear me advertise it? 

01:01:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I don't advertise it. I agree with your point where people just won't care or see it With Fez. Fez got into some shit this week as well with the Duke money line that he gave out On the show we did on Tuesday. Rob was saying the minus 7,000 didn't exist, so then Fez posted a screenshot of the exchange that he got minus 7,000 on. 

01:02:14 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Where it's like to win 23 to 32. Yeah, like pocket change on minus 7,000. 

01:02:21 - Flup (Co-host)
It was a bit of a self-report. He didn't want to joke so he got that at least. So it was a bit of a self-report. 

01:02:26 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So he got that at least. So it was a bit of like almost a self-report. But then, like the replies, with fez complaining about people making fun of him for the minus seven thousand line, the replies to that are are still like oh, just just shake it off, fez, or something like that. Like keep grinding, like we still, we still rock with you, stuff like that. So yeah, people really are like entrenched in in in their communities and uh, but just like you guys said, people can kind of do as they please. Last thing we're going to go through I honestly kind of wasn't. I was kind of partially hoping this would never be a topic for this show because this is so exhausted of a debate, but we're going into it here. 

01:03:05
The LeBron versus Jordan conversation here Kirk Evans, one of the hosts on the Tuesday show, reigniting this a little bit and said if you were at all considering LeBron as a GOAT when he originally signed with the Lakers, I'm not sure how he is an undisputed GOAT by now. Seven seasons from the age of 34 to 40, averaging 27 to 8 probably most impressive end of career run by any athlete ever, and he's still going. Obviously this caused debate. China we just talked about said most impressive for longevity by far, but he's not even in the conversation with mike as a goat. 

01:03:40
Clive bixby, one of the forward progress hosts that we have, does the sunday show with one of our popular ones there. Says, to be fair, you're forgetting Tom Brady in reference to greatest end of career run by any athlete ever. And then Onfuego101 says in fairness, you're too young to understand what Michael Jordan did each night, but, more importantly, in the playoffs. So it's important to note here Kirk Evans is mid to late 20s. I myself am mid 20s, so I also didn't experience it. But I'll set the tone here. I am in the mindset that LeBron is the GOAT. I kind of hate how divisive this conversation is when China says not even in the conversation with like, let's be real here there's a conversation at the, at the very least, like I, I I'll say lebron. 

01:04:32
If somebody says michael jordan, I'm fine with that, but at the very least you have to acknowledge that it is. It is definitely a conversation, if not a very close debate. And uh, if you don't acknowledge that, I think you're just lying to yourself. But yeah, what? 

01:04:46 - Flup (Co-host)
do you guys think Joey, who do you guys have as GOAT? 

01:04:50 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Well, I always will say Michael Jordan and Joey and I came up around the same time. I also look at, I think, what a person does with like, for instance, what Michael Jordan did to basketball as a whole. Right, he has a transcendent like, jordan is a transcendent logo. Right, it is taking basketball to a whole, nother level. And and he was the one that did that and not that LeBron hasn't done that on one level, but Michael did it before him. Michael still has won six titles. Lebron's won four. I'm not going to get into the particulars, they're both unbelievable. I haven't won two, but to say that there's no debate a little insane. There's definitely a debate, but from a transcendent standpoint, of what one did for the game of basketball. There is no athlete in the history of the game that has done more for it than Michael Jordan and still does for it. 

01:05:39 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I'm a LeBron truther. There's a bunch of Kanish tweets out there that are you know, lebron, you know gay, gay, gayest of all time. And I will say, to add to the legacy is last night, when he only had three points starting the fourth quarter and Fluff thought he was going to cash his. He thought he was going to, he was raking the money, he thought he was already counting. He's texting me Joey, we did it, baby, I won it. 

01:06:07 - Flup (Co-host)
Fake news. 

01:06:08 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Did you do that, whoa, no, no no this information. 

01:06:14 - Flup (Co-host)
I said nothing and Joey texted me and as soon as he texted LeBron, scores eight instantly and gets to 11. 

01:06:23 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
What's the bet you have? What's the backstory? What's the bet that you have? 

01:06:27 - Flup (Co-host)
I bet LeBron to score under 10 a couple games. I was getting around 60-ish to one. But then the big overarching bet is I have a two-to-one my 10,000 to 20,000 on LeBron to have one game for the rest of the season under 10, and I bet this one. There was 40 games to go. This is with NBA Green Beans on Twitter. 

01:06:49 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, I was praying for that content. The funny thing there is one he's actually gotten hurt mid-game already, like in this. He just already had the 10, and he got hurt, and then this one. He gets three. How cognizant because we have our opinions on lebron mj here. How cognizant of the street I saw you tweet about a little last night. How aware of is he of this streak? 

01:07:13 - Flup (Co-host)
definitely more aware than I thought initially. 

01:07:15 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Oh no he's gotta be. No, no, I think like so. You sent you. So, kanish, you sent a screenshot of the box score, by the way, tagging Flop in our chat. 26 minutes, three points. I think LeBron, going into the fourth, looks up and knows exactly what he needs to get. I would be floored if he wasn't gunning for that. They could be getting slaughtered in a game. He's coming back into game. 

01:07:39 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Let me play out a scenario. Lakers are up 40 or down 40. The fourth quarter starts. He only has the three points. Is he going? 

01:07:48 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
for it until he gets to 10?. 

01:07:50 - Flup (Co-host)
I still am not sure in that situation. I don't know Because he's 40. He already has the record. It's so long. That's kind of the premise of my bet. What this did show me is if he had like seven, eight or nine and got a little injured, they probably would come out. He might come back in for a possession or two to try to get it um. 

01:08:10
But I want to take it back to what the initial conversation was. I'm a little biased. I'm a huge jordan sneakers fan. I have a big jordan shoes collection. I think jordan is the goat, and the thing I didn't like about Kirk Evans' tweet is my interpretation of GOAT is who gives you the most odds to win a championship. 

01:08:29
And what I would say is like I'm a bigger football fan, but I would say I would relate to football where who do you think has a better chance of winning you a ring? Five years of Tom Brady or like 10 years of Ben Roethlisberger? I'm not sure I would lean towards the superior athlete. My argument would be that Jordan's peak was greater than LeBron's peak and even though LeBron's longevity is far greater, it doesn't help you get a ring Like LeBron's, what only like the 10th to 15th, maybe 20th best player in the league right now. I'm not sure how much value he's adding to get you a ring at 40. Like I don't know how much this really impacts him, whereas, like you need a top five guy to really have a significant chance. 

01:09:13 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
But also, remember LeBron's played what? 20-what seasons? 21?. Michael played about 14 at a high level. He retired in 98, averaged 8 and 5, I think 30, he averaged over 38 again yeah, right, right at the end, yeah, but it again. He's done it. In 14 seasons he won six titles. Lebron's been what? 21 years and won four titles. And again we don't know when lebron's gonna leave. 

01:09:39 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I'm thinking after this year it's probably going to get less and less look it's a different thing for for five or six years, right, this will be the year he slows down but, but. 

01:09:48 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
But what I'm saying is if we, if we take the last seven years of michael's career, which was his, which was his peak, I mean I would imagine, average wise, he's having a better last seven years than lebron right around there, right. 

01:10:02 - Flup (Co-host)
I think I don't like about that argument, though Nadeau is, LeBron had to face the Golden State Warriors with Kevin Durant. I mean, did Jordan ever have an opponent that difficult? 

01:10:14 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Let me tell you something, those Jazz teams. Okay, some of those teams were Carmelone, John, Stockton, Byron. They were pretty. 

01:10:23 - Flup (Co-host)
They're good, but no one in their right mind would take the Jazz over the Golden State Warriors. 

01:10:28 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Sure, and also the caliber of teams that, like LeBron has played on as well, is a big thing for me. Like I don't think he had the same level of cast, that obviously he had a great cast but sometimes he didn't Like his first finals loss to the Spurs, like that team had no business, what. 

01:10:48 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Jacob, he's also had super teams and Michael had, yes, scottie Pippen, dennis Robbins, a great rebounder. But but Luke Longley, I mean, uh, ron Harper, great players, but I mean they're, they're also kind of just role guys too. 

01:11:01 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
You said it. Really, it's a longevity versus peak, I think, are you're almost like what you prefer right now. I think, objectively, you would say if you wanted one playoff series in their prime, at their absolute peak, you would take Jordan over the course of the long haul. Who's had a better NBA career? It's, it's now, but do you guys? 

01:11:21 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
but do you, you know, know he mentioned he's. He's a big shoe guy. I'm a big, we're all big shoe guys. You look at what he has done for the game, right? So, for instance, I relate it. I don't know how much you guys relate to rap music, right, there's no one that will ever say cameron was a great rapper. But what he did for the genre, whether it was the way he dressed, the acting that he did, that took like alan iverson's another one. Is he the greatest player of all time? No, but what he did for basketball, you can't you know the way kids dressed. He influenced kids. Michael did that. That I'm not sure lebron did at the same level so, but I'm looking at goat is more. 

01:12:01 - Flup (Co-host)
Does it make me have a chance to win a ring? That's the only thing I care about. I think Jordan is a slight edge there, but it's one, two China's sweet about it. Not even closest, it's just ludicrous, yeah. 

01:12:16 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
My, my, where my likes kind of shifted Cause I kind of grew up watch like I'm 25. So I grew up with it was just standard that Jordan was the GOAT. But then, as you get more and more years of LeBron, it kind of started to get closer and closer and closer. Well, kind of put it over the top, for me and I'm a Toronto Raptors fan I do Toronto Raptors content. So you know, people might think it's the LeBronto era that kind of crushed me, but it's actually the 2018 series. 

01:12:44
I saw LeBron play against the Pacers, where the Cavs were just a disaster that season. 

01:12:49
They traded their entire team midseason completely reshuffled, and in Game 7 against the Pacers I think he played 46 minutes. He might have played all 48 minutes or something, but very small rest, if any rest, in that game and that team had no business competing at all in that playoffs and he like literally carried this random team through that game and all the way to the finals. They get to the finals. They got absolutely plowed by the Warriors. But who wouldn't get plowed by the Golden State Warriors at the time, with Steph Curry, klay Thompson, kevin Durant, draymond Green so green so that, like his ability for me to make his team better, like nobody has ever made the players around them look as good as lebron does, because he just elevates everything around him so much. And he does that to a greater degree to me than jordan. Granted, I never watched him, so I agree with like like peak ability is probably there, but LeBron's ability to make everything around him better to me puts him at the top. 

01:13:48 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
But you also look at people like Kobe Bryant, who did certain things no one else has done, quite honestly, other than Will Champ. Kobe Bryant dropped 81 in a game for. 

01:13:57 - Flup (Co-host)
God's sake Kobe's very overrated though in my opinion. 

01:14:02 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Well, I'm not saying he's in this conversation, but there are certain things about certain players that you just have to take notice of. 

01:14:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So we have two LeBron guys here, kanish and myself, and we have two Jordan guys as well, but at least we can all like, be civil and have the understanding that it is a conversation. 

01:14:21 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
The debate thing is not true. 

01:14:23 - Flup (Co-host)
It's a huge debate and it's very pronounced, it's one too, and at this point it's reasonable to have either as one, Whereas, like you said, Jacob, 10, 15 years ago, it was unreasonable to have anyone but Jordan at one. 

01:14:38 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, this is a tweet, by the way, that I want to reference before we end off the show here. This is from 10 years ago. 

01:14:44 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
May 25th 2015. 

01:14:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
LeBron is 30. This fuckery won't go on for much longer, thank God. Well, 10 years later, lebron is still going to make an all NBA team. That had to have went viral, that tweet, oh yeah, oh, oh, like people just bring it up all the time, this is I simply Googled. Lebron is 30. Thank God, and this tweet came up as a first result. It's it's received quite a lot of, and you figure that guy probably got literally nothing from that. 

01:15:13 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
Like, think about now, if he was monetized that tweet, he'd make a bunch off that. One other thing I want to bring up which I think it with content. We've monetized everything right. So you have the reasoning to every tweet you put out to constantly fish for engagement and we've gotten to the point where we just pay people for everything. So it doesn't surprise me that there are people that put these insane tweets out, because now there's a reason to do it. Now I don't understand what this guy's was in 2015, but I kind of feel bad. 

01:15:41 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
He was a LeBron hater who was happy that he was riding off into the sunset after leaving the Miami Heat. Little did he know LeBron would have one of the most historic wins ever in 2016. 

01:15:52 - Jeff Nadu (Co-host)
I tweeted once that Luke Falk was the next Tom Brady. I actually said that once. 

01:16:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I mean. 

01:16:01
I do content around the NBA. I have been for five years. That's how I got noticed to do to get a job with with robin with bed step with the hammer, so none of that happened without it. So, yeah, over five years of creating sports content, I've had my fair share of horrific takes, so it's just the nature of the game. I haven't had one as bad as this one here about lebron james, though, and I think that is a great place to end off the very first Circle Back Friday episode. 

01:16:28
Thank you so much to everybody for tuning in. Please make sure you've smashed that like button to help drive us up in the YouTube algorithm. Also, make sure you're subscribed to the channel as well. We have shows three times a week. Sometimes we're live every week on Tuesday at 8 am with Circle Back, with myself as the producer role for Rob Kirk and Jeff Feinberg, but we also have this show now, fridays, 8 am, eastern Time as well, with myself. We have Fluff, we have Knish and we have Nadeau with us here. We also sometimes have these Circles Off interviews on Thursdays at 8 am. So so much great content here. We're going to the moon and we want to take you there with us, so make sure you get involved with Circles Off, make sure you comment down below as well what you thought of this episode, and we will see you again at the next one.