00:00 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Disclaimer the content presented in this show is intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any individuals or organizations mentioned. Statements made about public figures or entities are based on publicly available information and are not intended to harm or defame any person or business. This show relies on fair use of social media posts, which are presented in good faith for the purpose of commentary and criticism. Viewers and listeners are advised to form their own opinions it's circle back, episode number eight. 

00:56 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
right here on the circles off channel, I'm Rob Pizzola, Kirk Evans, Geoff Feinberg, to my left, Jacob Gramegna, producing today. This is the show where we review the past week that was in gambling Twitter, going to start with myself Very egotistical thing to do, but I think it's very topical. People like to think that I go out of my way to create drama on the internet for the purposes of this show. I don't do that. I just tweet whatever comes into my mind at any time. 

01:21 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I would say some people may have said you've created this show so you can go after people I've been on twitter since I want to say 2010. 

01:34 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I've had beefs every single year. Before we had our own show here on the channel going through beefs. There was a spread investor. There was philly godfather. For several years we had yanni the greek ben. The better ben, the better kind of there's been a lot. I'm forgetting man the library man the library sure, there's another one. There's been so many over the course of years. It just so happens that bender ended up being the target this week. Bender wins YT tweets. Told you guys to buy BTC Bitcoin at 17,000. And again at 34,000,. Hope you did. I saw this come across on my 4U feed. There's some pre-existing story here which we're going to get into in a second. I responded if they listened, they probably started tailing your service and are broke now anyways, which I thought was a good dig. And this stems back to an argument with Kirk, who happens to be in studio with us today. That happened earlier this year with Kirk and Bender. Jacob, if we could get to this following tweet here Also like. 

02:41 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Twitter's maybe one of the one place on earth where where, like hyping that you own Bitcoin doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't get you the clout like your Thanksgiving table will this week with your aunts and uncles who will give you props for your investment Outside of like crypto discord, where if you're on Twitter, it's only Psycho Pass. Signed up for Twitter in the last year and a half, you're well knowledgeable about the whole crypto situation. 

03:13 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It's just a really weird thing to ask for like thanks for when there's been so many people who have been on the crypto train for a long time, like you know what I'm saying. It's just really I I mean I get it. I mean he's he's in the business of like, building a following and selling to other people, but I've touted crypto for many years. I mean I'm not, I'm not victory lapping every single you know pump in the market. 

03:39 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I'm not yeah, yeah and like especially twitter, but gambling twitter actually every single person owns. 

03:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, you have to use it to bet on the exchanges for the most part, so everyone is very familiar at pretty much the people you're talking to or I don't know kind of brag to already you know, very familiar and know, and that's all like I get your hype, you hit any bet, you want to show your bet. It's kind of the same as I've been on the winning bet. But I would say at this current moment you're seeing more people like so excited about the current state of their bitcoin than bragging about that. They told you to get bitcoin yeah. 

04:22 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So I'm not gonna lie. This tweet comes across. I already have a pretty negative opinion of this person from a past interaction. I think in my head here's a great opportunity to flame them. I don't know why I think that way. I just do. I know you do as well, kirk, oftentimes. But back in February Bender tweeted somewhere out there right now is a sports better betting 56% of his games, thinking he's a bad sports better because he only bets, parlays and loses money. 

04:49 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, so I remembered this exchange, but I hadn't looked at the actual tweets in a long time. It's actually stunning how dumb of a tweet both these tweets we have on the screen are. The fact that someone who says they're a professional sports better and sells picks would say something like this is actually inexcusable. So yeah, he says show me the math. 

05:15 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
His math is just embarrassingly wrong well, he's talking about the house edge, right, like his reply to you is tell me how a a 4.5% house edge on straight bets is worse than a 10-40% house edge on parlays, and that's applying to the masses. 

05:31 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yes, if you're betting into a VIG and don't have an edge. 

05:36 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Correct. So he's basically going on this tangent. Mr Limited comes in and says this is how it took me two minutes and he just does the basic math a minute comes in and says this is how it took me two minutes and he just does the basic math. If you have a 56 hit rate, you're betting straights your expected roi is 6.9. If you're betting parlays, your expected roi is 12.9. It's very simple math. If you have an edge in sports betting, you can often increase your roi by parlaying the games. It's's simple. 

06:03
Now, I don't think that. I think Bender exhibits a lot of. Let me say this I do think he can make his living as a pro better. Okay, I do. I've seen his pick service. I've seen a list of the history there. There's some things that I'm vehemently against as part of that service, but he seems to be pretty price sensitive for one. I think it's well within reason that a pro bettor could not understand that concept. They just bet straights. They were told to bet straights their whole life. Right, this is me growing up and somebody saying to me don't bet parlays, avoid them. You want to bet straights and you're just into that and you can still make a living doing that. You're leaving money on the table by doing that, so but he's saying show me the math. 

06:52
And and coming across as so raw, like he's just so wrong, I I don't know if I agree with you I don't understand why people on the internet have such a tough time admitting that they are not a subject matter expert in everything. And this is what really irritated me and irked me about this guy in the first place. It was like shut up, you're wrong, stop arguing because you're digging yourself a bigger hole and the rest of the people who are actually sharp in this space are gonna think you're a moron. And that's exactly what ended up happening here. It was like one series of tweets where he argued with Literally everyone Literally everyone in the sharper portion of gambling Twitter where people were like this guy is an idiot. And I actually don't believe he's an idiot. 

07:39 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I just think he didn't know when to give up on this particular conversation and he never admitted he was wrong, never did know when to give up on this particular. And he never admitted he was wrong, never did. Still to this day, I know it's still out there. 

07:47 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I think it's fine if you see the math here from mr limited and it's fine if you don't understand it, but then, once you see it, it's okay after the fact to say, okay, now I understand. 

07:56 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah it's a very simple concept but I wouldn't say that's fine if you are selling your picks and advertising yourself as some incredible, better. I think that is something that is basic enough that you should have to know that Right. 

08:10 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So lots of stuff comes from this. It starts with Bender responding to a tweet that tweet of mine saying I'll bet you a million dollars cash. By the way, a million dollars cash is a really great way to like basically out yourself for tax evasion and in some way or another, but anyways, you can move on. 

08:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
there's like multiple cell phones with the like million dollars yeah to prove something got it. 

08:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Uh, he wants to prove he has a 60 plus return average per year. In the five years master class has been around, we had two bad months. If you're dumb enough to believe the trolls, then take my wager. We'll make it very public. You can audit every email and pick that we put out. 

08:53
I'm not in the business of making bets on things I can't verify independently. If you truly have a track record that proves that level of return, I'd question why you're completely irrelevant in the space maybe a cheap shot, why so many former clients are out to get you definitely true, if you've ever looked at his replies and the fact that he turned his replies off replies off and why you need a one million dollar bet to justify showing results that paint you in such a good picture. He recorded a tiktok video, a reaction to this. It's kind of gone back and forth in the tiktok. He asks all of his followers to start responding to my tweets to. You know classic influencer stuff go out. You know our bender army, go after this guy. 

09:35
He also accused me of promoting scammers on our platforms, on the hammer platforms, which I don't know where this came from. There's a lot to unpack here. First and foremost, what I cannot understand is, if you do have this level of success, why can nobody find results on first of all, like that just seems like a really simple thing that you would do if you were selling pick packages. Happens with all the scammers out there nowadays. 

10:07 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
The results are up there yeah, it seems like bender relies on testimonials. Yeah, then, just actual documentation. Like I'm good here, people tell him I'm good, despite in the testimonials there's a lot of like halfstar, zero-star reviews. 

10:24 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Right, and he doesn't let people reply to his Twitter. That is. 

10:29 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Usually not a good sign. That's not a good sign. 

10:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
As a child of the internet, that is low-grade. There's a lot of things he's done here that can piss off pro-betters, that are tells to pro-betters. That can just make your skin crawl. As a pro better, I'm not a pro better, I'm a child of the internet. I don't appreciate the no comments. 

10:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
well, so that is just so low grade. There's something to it. Now, whether or not you believe it is a different story, but he believes that there is one sole person who is responsible for all of these negative comments on the Internet. He has alluded to filing a lawsuit against some Australian guy. If this is one person, it is the most sophisticated beatdown of someone, because the times that are being posted Australia is the opposite side of the world. Some of these things would be coming at 4 am, 5 am, and there's so many accounts. 

11:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I don't know if it's true, I'll tell you this if I was subscribing to someone's service and they were in the middle of like a cold run, even though having some apparently, by their words, some great track record, yes and then they asked me, while I'm paying them and they're on a cold run, that I got to go to work on the internet and chirp some guy that he's fighting with, I would lose my mind. Yep, I'm paying you for your picks, you suck. Why do I have to fight your internet battles for you, goober? 

12:03 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yep, I'm with you. There's so much to this, jeff, like okay, here's the thing. I'll bet you a million dollars cash. I can prove this return. Who's the source of truth in this situation? All the emails he sent out in the past, like first of all, I know this from Bender, but he tracks at minus 105. 

12:28 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
1.95 decimal points there on all the plays. Second of all, a lot is that like a huge tell if you've ever subscribed. Let's say you subscribe to services, yes, and you don't like your current service and you're between services and you go to a new service and this guy's great and everything at 105, like if you have just the like the modicum of experience like that's, that's a no also like a huge tell for me generally is when you know you're you're not betting highly liquid markets on a lot of your bets. 

13:01 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
you're sending out plays that are available at one sports book. You're sending out stuff that in some cases listen, I'm only reading the replies to a lot of people who, by the way, there's a lot of people out to get this guy now on the internet I think, listen, you have a few bad months and you're selling picks. That's naturally going to happen. 

13:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
But you start to see people who are like well, you sent out this play and it wasn't available at any point at this number, like that kind of stuff. How are you going to independently verify all of this stuff? It's, it's a big, it's a, it's a false challenge. So none of his how, unless you're subscribing, how do you know that he doesn't have like a documentation of the picks? 

13:40 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
so on the site, yeah, onto the site. Like, listen, there's more to this, right? You see how he's very, very clear, not only in the tweet but also in the you we didn't play the tiktok video, but he talks about how, for years, he's been winning on master class. Okay, if you go to bender wins his website I don't suggest you do but if you happen to go to it, the first package available there is MasterPass, not MasterClass. Masterpass gets you MasterClass and Consensus Group picks. So there's two services here. There's MasterClass, which is being charged at 139 bucks monthly, and Consensus Group, which is 279 bucks monthly. 

14:27
Most people would see the consensus group as the one that hey, he's charging double the money for this. This is the one I gotta pay for. Consensus group is one daily consensus play five to seven times a week from a group of three professional sports bettors. This is a play that we all agree has value. I've been sent all the plays for this year alone, by the way. Again, this is the beauty of like so many people on the internet who dislike this guy. As soon as there's a war going on, people are starting to forward me emails. 

14:56 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Your DMs are probably a Christmas tree, oh yeah, this is fake what he's saying. 

15:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
All this and whatever, but the consensus group at the time I was sent plays was down 80 units on the year. Masterclass is only down like 21. So there's a big, stark difference. By the way, those add up to over 100 units. It would be an entire bankroll loss, like I said in the original tweet. 

15:17
If we're just going to go on semantics here, but you notice how he goes back to like prove that I lost on Masterclass over the last four years. Well, how about we prove your that you've ever won on consensus group? How about we do that? You're charging 280 bucks a month? Do you see how, like all of this gets twisted? These guys lie to themselves so much that they believe what they're selling. This is the biggest problem with the scam tout industry is that they lie to themselves so much that they start to believe it that people are out to get them, that it's unfair, that even if he's only lost for the past two months and people got buried, you have to accept responsibility for that. 

15:59
Go back to bender's tweets from last year, the year before. You notice he's doing daily recaps, weekly recaps. Those are fucking gone now they don't exist. Why do you think those are gone? I I can put two and do together, so all of this stuff is just be at. Obviously I'm not going to take a million dollar bet for him to prove his results and and it's it's a fake. It's like a fake it is a. 

16:25 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
The million dollar bet is that's like real fugazi. No one's going to do that. That makes no sense. 

16:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
And it's an attempt to make me look like a coward. And it's the same thing with this next one, which is him issuing me a $250,000 head-to-head challenge. Five to seven picks a day my choice. Money held in escrow 30 days. We'll use BetStamp to track a company you own. We can agree on max min odds, one and two unit bets only. He goes on further in his TikTok video that says we'll meet at Woodbine every single day. We'll record the picks. We'll make this all public. 

17:01
What makes anybody think I want to do it? I would love to take a challenge where I feel that I have a big edge and when constructed properly, I can have a big edge in a lot of sports betting challenges. I don't want to take a five to seven picks a day challenge where by the end of the month we're picking 150 to 210 games at a random time of the day, like meet me at noon at woodbine, like what? What are the? I'm not running from this. It just doesn't make logical sense. I hate that and people are like you're scared. You know what part of me is scared, because it's not a big enough sample that's ever going to prove my worth. The second thing is I don't actually have time to devote to any other thing in my life like a fucking betting challenge. 

17:49
You know, ben the better challenged me, one of the worst bettors of the time. He challenged me. I deflected hard. I said you can't take me on in a challenge unless you beat my pets first. It started with the tortoise. He lost to the tortoise, tortellini heads up. But like I don't want to take on ben the better in a betting challenge where we're picking three to seven picks a day over the course of a week, even if I'm the best better in the world and he sucks, there's still like a 20 chance he can win. That my reputation is ruined. I don't want to do public stuff. That's not who I am like. I just want to make money, do my own thing, fill my own content. All this stuff is just massive deflection from the real original point that I made. And it's again if Bender beat me in a head-to-head challenge, does it prove that his picks win? No, but as soon as that happens, I've now legitimized him as a better. 

18:42 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, this challenge is like you could at least see a path to where maybe you could accept the challenge. The million dollar one is a total joke. But yeah, I totally agree with you, like I've been offered big challenges. 

18:54 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So what's? 

18:54 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
the challenge. 

18:56 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
He wants to do five to seven picks a day for a month. 250 a month, till somebody calls it quits 250k a month. But there's got to be a challenge. You would do. He calls it quits 250k a month, but there's gotta be a challenge. You would do. Oh, 100, first of all. 

19:09
Fezzik Fezzik responded to this as well. If two guys have a legitimate beef, instead of challenging a guy to 100,000 or 1 million or 2 zillion contest I laughed at that, by the way not why not just make a reasonable offer? I do agree with him in one sense, where people always make, like these offers that nobody on the internet is going to take, right, yeah, he recommends we do something reasonable, like two thousand to five thousand. I'm actually interested in a bigger challenge than wasting my time on a two thousand. Like I'm gonna make picks a month, every for an entire month, and meet a guy at woodbine and bet tickets for two thousand dollars. Like that's not gonna happen. Happen, I don't like that. But here's what I was going to do in all seriousness, in all honesty. That challenge came in. I haven't responded. I was thinking about it a lot more and I was thinking to myself I'm going to make this happen, but I want to do it on my terms. I'm not going to let someone else dictate the terms of this particular challenge, because I don't want to flip coins for 250k. Right, if we're, if, if he's going to be able to find an off-market price or what, or do what, I don't want to flip coins. The way that I bet is high volume. I look for a lot of edges. I bet at certain times of the day, so I don't want to. I don't want to abide by the terms that someone else sets out. Fair, listen, I 250 000 for anyone, including me, is is money, is serious money. Okay, I do fairly well off sports betting, but I'm not going to just randomly like this isn't like I'm going to nut up. Uh, you know I'm testing the dick measuring contest or anything like that. Right, I want it to be under my, my terms and circumstances. So I'm like I'm gonna dm this guy and I'm gonna say to him I'm in, but let's, let's work on some sort of thing. So I go to dm him, jeff, and what I realize is that he's already been dming me for a long time, since february, from when he got into the argument with k. 

21:03
Now on Twitter, there's a message requests folder. I don't check the message requests folder. It's usually from people I don't follow or don't follow me. I try to avoid people who don't follow me, just put it that way. I think if you want to say something to me, follow me on Twitter and I'll see it. I check my message requests folder. I see this from Bender. 

21:24
As someone with an extensive following who is respected by many in the sports betting community, you have the ability to create serious damage to someone's reputation and business when you make defaming posts an outright lie. You have absolutely no basis in which to make that comment and I can prove this is an outright lie. In fact, I have averaged over a 60% return for my members over the last five years, including winning 87, 110, 71, and 53% the last four years. You made your comment with the intention to mislead others untrue. That was not the intention, in believing that people who followed me have lost their money with zero proof or knowledge of me or my numbers. 

22:03
At this point, I am formally requesting you issue an apology to me and the people you misled with this tweet, admitting you made the comment even though you didn't know the facts. Secondly, as the damage is so widespread at this point, with 90,000 people having seen it, I formally requested you do a video and post it to all social media platforms stating that you have lied to people about me. I'm requesting both of these to be done in a timely manner to limit the damage you've already done to me and my business with this defamatory tweet. Yeah, like. 

22:42 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
This is just the behavior of a guy, guy who's a bit insane I would get so excited to receive this oh, I was like I would. 

22:52 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It would, just, it would be um, like it'd be such a dopamine hit yeah to like, read someone who you know in your heart you've kind of demonstrated here is up to what he's up to. To then like say, you're responsible for his reputation. 

23:13 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
This I actually don't even. I'm still in my head laughing. I actually cannot believe this was actually said. First of all, you made your comment with the intention to mislead others. I didn't make my comment with the intention to mislead others. I did not make that. I made my comment spur of the moment, based off of previous interactions and based off of what I've seen on Twitter in the last three months and the records that I've collected that indicate that the last three months have lost an entire bankroll. 

23:41 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Basically, how good he says he's gone 53 the last four years no, I think those are rois each year according to individual year rois, yeah, yeah, 87, 110, 71, then 57, then 53. 

23:55 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Really got a question why? 

23:57 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
why you're selling picks at that point for one. Absolutely right, I mean. I think that's a fair question. I am actually sorry. Okay, I'm very sorry. 

24:08
I apologize to Bender that I ever got involved with you, because you are a fucking idiot. That's all I can apologize for is ever interacting with you at any point in life, because you fucking tilt me so hard. You are the epitome of what is shameful in this industry absolutely shameful. You cannot just run from recent results and pretend that they don't exist because of records that you have been collecting yourself over previous years, not documented by third party. You are your own source of truth. If you cannot see that, figure out a way to see that, because you're blind to what's going on right now. Own your results, move on with life. Interact with people on a real human level. 

24:58
This is the saddest thing. Post this as well. I'm a troll's worst nightmare on here. Because I value my name and reputation over money, I'll spend any amount of time here. Because I value my name and reputation over money, I'll spend any amount of time, any amount, to make sure people don't lie about me. So you know again, I don't want to even read this whole thing. It actually makes me sick. It is the classic George Costanza you lie so much you believe it. 

25:19 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
That's where I'm at right now at right now, the I mean this is just. You know, we had we did this a few weeks ago where someone was in a tizzy and she just needed to go for a walk and put her phone down because everything that came out of her accounts made it so much worse. This is a troll's worst nightmare. Troll's worst nightmare. Like he's got a troll, he's got to turn his comments off because a troll's taking advantage of his socials. He's no one's nightmare. 

25:55 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
He is a troll's worst nightmare, because trolls can't respond to him on Twitter. 

25:58 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, they can quote him, though I guess you can quote he's not hard to get his attention. 

26:04 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
That's very true, I know it's just so. 

26:07 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, I agree with you, though. He's he. He needs to take a walk. He just needs to take a walk. 

26:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
And also what you said, like if you've ever lost a hundred units over any spam of span of time in a service like that, means that if someone if he bought his bitcoin a tenth, whatever short early, even at 17, which I assume he was in on before and someone makes a joke at you while it's flirting with a hundred, enjoy your bitcoin like you didn't need to like self-sabotage yourself to this point, like that's the thing, like it's a comment on the internet you know how many negative comments I've gotten on the internet. 

26:43 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Imagine responding to everyone and being like oh, by the way, you have this following and like you're lying about me. And this is the world man. I watch ESPN countdown while I'm waiting for pizza buffet to start on 11 am on Sunday. Imagine someone going on air and being like you know what? Travis Kelsey is completely washed. At this point. He can't gain separation or whatever. And then Travis Kelsey responding and being like I need you to issue a public apology to me because you have defamed me and now I might not be able to get another contract in the NFL. Please issue it immediately on all your social media platforms, espn. Do you see the ridiculousness in all of this? 

27:23 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I've already offered to fund one circles back lawsuit. Don't tempt me to offer to fund a second one, Rob. 

27:32 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
But, jeff, it doesn't matter. 

27:35 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
These tweets just tempt me to be like you. Keep going. I want to see where this goes. I'm willing to pay the piper. 

27:44 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I'm very well funded to, I have no issues. It would be a complete waste of time. 

27:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, but it's a business expense and a personal expense. I don't want no, no even personal. 

27:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
The reality is, jeff, this guy went and did a TikTok right afterwards, in the first minute of the TikTok. He's like Rob Pizzola, by the way, who promotes a bunch of scammers on his podcast. Like, how is that not the same level of defamation? I'm not going after, I'm not going to litigate, it doesn't matter to me. By the way, where did that comment? Even you know where that comment came from. Someone just like replied to one of these tweets and said, oh, rob promotes a bunch of scammers. He took it as gospel and ran with it. What scammers am I promoting? What I interview? Industry guests, bookmakers, sometimes touts, sometimes betters, people with checkered history sometimes mathematicians. 

28:32
I interview people. If you want to say I promote right angle sports, I am extremely fair with that. By the way, I am a subscriber to right angle sports. I personally see value in that subscription. I think you need to be a serious better to pay that type of cost. I see value in betting a major market, getting ahead of a line move and then deciding what I want to do later on, because oftentimes you can are about of of of the game completely there's value in getting ahead of the line move. So if this is a right angle sports thing but by by the way, we roasted right angle sports last week on circle but like it came up how they're running their social account. Secondly, they keep a verified third party history, bet history on bet stamp. Verified third party. They do not run from results when the things are not going well. 

29:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
They are the complete opposite of a scam in my opinion, and everything they post is pretty widely available when it's posted 100%. 

29:34 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We can debate the merits of buying picks or selling picks and there's no right or wrong answer. There's going to be people who are just anti-tout in every, and that's fair and that's fine. But to call them an outright scam, I would say is is definitely, and that's the only thing he could possibly be talking about here. And to you know, in my experience I think right angle sports actually does things the right way. Not a promo, not suggesting you go and buy I. I just want to be explicitly clear. I'm stating my mind here. But you can find the record at any time. They recap winning weeks. They recap losing weeks. Maybe the Twitter account goes off the rails sometimes. 

30:14 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah Well, I honestly think you're looking too deep. I doubt he was even referencing right angle sports or any. I think he saw that comment and just ran with it. I don't think he even knows what right angle sports is. Honestly, it's very possible. 

30:27 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
He doesn't, I have no idea. Anyways, that was my week, that was. 

30:32 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I would just say I would like to. I mean, we'll see where it goes from here. I think you should offer him a contest. 

30:43 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I was going to, but I'm and this is going to sound like I'm running from it. Now Let me level with the audience here. For those who don't know me well, you're going to get a very intimate version of Circles Off this Thursday. It's coming up this Thursday If you want to see it. It's just me alone and it's just me talking, speaking my mind. It will be very intimate. You'll understand a lot more about me. 

31:12
I don't have time to do anything right now. I bet I don't pay myself a salary. I bet I rely on that for my income. I run this content network and I do a lot of the content for the network. Yeah, any additional thing that's added onto my plate right now feels almost impossible to overcome. 

31:34
I'm moving on December 12th. I'm packing boxes at home. I'm organizing the most random shit that I didn't think I would have to deal with. This is just a headache to me, but I was going to do it just purely out of you know what he wants to come at me. I have some pride. I'll meet him in the middle. And now I am so completely off of it because it's just another thing and I honestly want to distance myself from this guy as much as possible. I do not want him building a brand off of me. Let me tell you that, because if we're recording stuff, publicly, releasing pics every day, he's just going to get more and more engagement. That's mine, the ones that I earned over the years by building a following and being honest and reputable, I guess. 

32:26 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, I think I'd like to see a contest. No everyday videos. Going to Woodbine every day actually makes no sense. I'm not getting out of my house to drive a fucking piece of kiosk. Month-long competition. Results are set at the end. That's what I'd like to see, but it's obviously up to you. 

32:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I would love to do that, but do you know what is going to go into creating that? 

32:51 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, it'll be a lot we have to find an escrow, we have to find rules. 

32:54 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
They're going to have to be agreed on by lawyers. There's going to be stuff that inevitably is not going to be thought of. That's going to come up in the middle, it not? 

33:06 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
going to be thought of. That's going to come up in the middle, so there's it's. It's. It's such a waste of my time, okay, so then here's another idea, and it's like a ladder, like a video game, like throw like your. Look like you had ben go against a tortoise. 

33:17 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes, throw like your lowest henchman at this guy, but if but ben ben desperate Ben was really desperate, like Bender is doing. Well, he's obviously wealthy. Whether that's come from betting, from pick services crypto. 

33:35 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Listen and you said you deep-dived what you could see. And he probably does make money sports betting. We said this off-air before the show, which isn't easy I think. 

33:43 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I think you might have said which isn't easy, I think. I think I think you might have said it on air also, possibly there's a difference between being a pro bettor and being able to win for other people as part of a large service. That's where, like to me, it's not hard to win. I know it sounds arrogant. I've done 180 plus episodes of circles off. Now I get people messaging me all the time like I didn't realize. 

34:09 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Well, you would just say like follow the injury reports, know when to bet, know how to read into top down bet to know how to read into like up, I don't know a quarterback meeting the media or not. Yeah, just stop being an idiot. 

34:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Stop doing things that you are conditioned to do generally. Uh sorry, to call out people who are losing sports bettors. I don't mean it that way, but it's not hard to to win at sports betting. I I do believe, like I said, he exhibits a lot of behaviors that a winning sports better would just price sensitivity, like in the way that closing line value, exactly things of that nature. He knows that's important. He knows that it's important to get out. So I'm not questioning necessarily bender as a sports better, but when you start to get the service involved, that's like remember when we did the episode of circles off with steve fezik? 

35:01
I wasn't actually going to bring up much of Fezzik on this episode, but it's topical. And I'm standing there and Fezzik and Johnny are just fucking going at it. They're arguing and I talked to Steve a lot after that interview and he's like Rob, you know that I'm like I'm a winning better. I'm like I know you're winning better, steve. That's not what Johnny was arguing. He wasn't arguing that you're not a winning sports better. It's whether or not your clients are going to win off of buying your service, because some of your clients can't go to the South Point at 2 am and bet a price because it's only there, like there's stuff that comes into play there. So there's a delineation between someone as a sports better and someone as a tout, and to me Bender exhibits a lot of the wrong practices as a tout in my opinion, and that's kind of where I would draw the line. 

35:51 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Again like this just seems if you bought your Bitcoin at like $5,000 and it's flirting with $100 and someone makes a joke like you got your. Bitcoin at $ hundred and you've bought in early, man, like just yeah like that's it like you know, congrats. 

36:08 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We will move on in one sec. The last thing I'll say is that I, I can get my back up against the wall and and anyone in the world can. If so, if, if someone comes at you, I mean we're gonna get to one where someone really got their back up against the wall, yeah, in in like a very destructive manner. But people, when you're put in a bad position, you feel like you're being called out embarrassed. I understand, you know, I I get coming back at someone. 

36:35
I, a few weeks ago, simon hunter, called me uh, I don't want to say for youtube, but a, a PDF file, let's go there. He called me that right, which I'm like. Yeah, it's like a really shitty thing to say to someone. My immediate response is defending my own honor in a way that, like, naturally makes sense. I would say you could argue that this is what his version of defending his honor is. Here, let's do a million dollar contest 250. That that's fine, I get it. I I actually do want to say that I get it. Personally, though, I think there's just much better ways to and this is a matter of my own personal opinion there's much better ways yeah, just show them. 

37:15 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Show the documented 60. Why would? 

37:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
you not. That's it why. Why would there not be even a google sheet right now that says here are my results. 

37:25 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
If I came at you, rob, and I took shots and I called you a fraud, like there are ways in which you would react to that. 

37:34 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes, to defend yourself and your integrity, I probably, honestly, wouldn't even respond, but if it got me hard enough, there are ways that I would react. Normally I might listen. It's a bad thing to do. I've done this before but sometimes I'll post like some screenshots from a PPH account that I might have used that week that won a lot of money and be like good luck ever trying to win this over your lifetime, let alone in one week. 

38:01 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I'll do stuff like that because I'm cocky and I want to defend my honor as well, and you could do that last night, I think, by the tone and yeah. 

38:09 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't want to post the Packers alternate stuff because those are bed into some Anyways, anyways. 

38:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Move along. 

38:17 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Anyways, that wasn't the only lawsuit threat. This week there's an account going around that's called Jeff Rosa Leaked. Jeff Rosa went over to was it Dub Club and is posting college basketball. So Jeff Rosa second time I think we're talking about him on Circle Back. He had what I would call a successful year in college basketball last year posting publicly to Twitter and build up a following, and is now selling picks with Dub Club. There's one person on this Jeff Rosa leaked account that is buying those plays, posting them publicly for other people. 

38:56
Now just letting you know Jeff Rosa's DMing this guy that this is illegal, purposely leaking paid information. It's also pretty easy to prove you're deliberately doing it, considering the account name and profile. I'll ask you to stop it. It's costing me subs. I can take legal action, which I don't want to, but if it doesn't stop, I will. Copyright infringement. This was hashtag circle back. It was sent to me in dms by many different people. It is sad that the immediate reaction to lots of negative stuff happening in the space now is you're getting sued I will say this is like no I. 

39:34 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
this is a story where it's like I'm really on no one's side because I think that jeff rosa leaked is kind of annoying and and I don't really know Jeff Rosa at all, but he seems like probably losing better. But this is different because like this guy is clearly intentionally ruining his business. I agree. I agree when he says it's also pretty easy to prove you're deliberately doing it. I agree, you're posting the pics. 

40:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
This is what I'm saying. There's a right or wrong way to go about things. But so Jeff is getting dragged because this interaction has come out on social media and they're like, oh you lose, or but like I understand why Jeff would be upset, that someone you can still you can post the play after it goes live. You can do a daily recap. There's so many more ways. If you like this. Jeff rosa leaked account, I get it. He thinks jeff rosa's a loser. He wants to kind of prove it and I mean, maybe there's other motives I'm not aware of, but there's ways to do it without posting the pics as they come here. I don't like it. Yeah, I don't. 

40:39 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I don't really I don't need to need to like Jeff Rosa to not like this Because, like you said, there's just other ways you can document it. You can be a hard ass, you can be a dog on that bone, like GRP on Chernoff yes, right, but you know this just feels wrong. It is wrong. 

41:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It is a violation of terms. 

41:03 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Listen, we all got memories, you know, ordering up that WrestleMania 10 pay-per-view, having the neighborhood over to watch. You set the VHS, you copy it for personal use. But at the very beginning they let you know this is not for copying and redistribution Like that is illegal. 

41:24 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It's intended for personal use only. 

41:25 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, there's an FBI, even logo on that warning. You know it's so easy to mock like the pick seller and you know it just sounds so like nebby I don't even know if that's the right word here. 

41:40 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't even know what the fuck nebby means. I'll be honest with you. 

41:44 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I do think we need to know if Jeff Rosa leaked is posting the plays like immediately after Jeff Rosa posted it or like is it hours after? 

41:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That's a big delineation A hundred percent. I don't present any of this as fact, by the way. I'm just merely stating opinions on I don't have the time to dig into, I don't have the time to dig into every one of these stories for like eight hours. 

42:06 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I love threatened lawsuits, though you do. 

42:11 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Have you ever threatened someone with a lawsuit before? Never. 

42:13 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Never and I would covet being threatened. I would. It means I did something really fucking good by my standards, I see. 

42:23 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You agitate it. You were enough of a shit. Yeah, I did something, right. 

42:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I would see it as like doing something right if we got there and in due time, but it's still a bit of a wild west. It's not the internet like in the early 2000s. In terms of the Wild West, yeah, but this is hard to. I guess it's just your opinion of Jeff Rosa. Probably is how you feel about the whole situation, I would agree. 

42:56 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I think a lot of people don't like that guy and they're like what the fuck? Why would he threaten a loss? I get it Like when you buy picks most most of the time when you buy picks, there are terms and conditions associated with those picks. Um, I'm never. I'm gonna use my words very carefully here, but I was a uh warren sharp subscriber for a little bit sharp football, because I'm like this guy can't get away with release, releasing lines that are not available anymore, like I I have to. 

43:24
And within a few weeks of creating a warren sharp bet stamp account, publicly tracking, not showing the plays until they went live, I received a linkedin message from someone asking if they could talk to me, got a call from them and it turned out that they were part of warren's inner circle okay, so to speak and basically said like hey, you can't do this. There's specific terms and conditions which he sent to me saying you can't do this, and I'm like well, why wouldn't you want the records to be out there? You can't find them anywhere on the site. It's only just like. And they're well, don't want people reverse engineering what Warren does Bogus excuse, in my opinion, because he's selling them anyways. It's public, it's one thing. If it was completely private, it's public. Anyone who has access could reverse it. 

44:15 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
So if I'm a subscriber of someone and I'm paying and they go 4-1 on Sunday. I can't tweet. They went 4-1 this Sunday. 

44:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You can. 

44:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
And then next Sunday tweet they went 1-4. 

44:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You absolutely can. What you cannot do is post those picks in a public forum while they're still relevant, so to speak. 

44:39 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
But on Sunday night what I was doing was nothing wrong. You can set it so they don't appear on the profile until the game begins, and therefore you can't bet that line anymore correct. 

44:48 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I got bullied in that situation. I'm full. Listen to me. There are things I will fight for, a lot of things in life and, believe me, there's nothing more. There are maybe some things that bother me more than like someone who's who's scamming or or misleading, let's put it that way. I just didn't want to get into that. At that time, man like this was when we were forming the hammer. I was still involved in that. I have limited resources of like. I just have a limited time. 

45:18 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It sounds really dumb, okay, but I would just put it this way, in a way where Bender is clearly like you, punching down, and I'm not for punching down. Yeah, sharp is punching up, and to me that is unequivocally acceptable by the terms of the internet. 

45:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You're saying that Punching up is always allowed. 

45:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Like I'm nothing, I I'm a nobody. I've tried my hardest, though, on the internet, like I don't want to punch down anymore but people. 

45:47 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
But people think. Some people think the opposite because they're like well, now you're trying to build a brand, I don't give a shit I just don't need to punch down. 

45:55 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Punch up, always punch up. 

45:58 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I'll also say like just because I'm far from a legal expert, but just because something's in a terms and conditions doesn't make it binding. I don't know if he could hold you to that in any sort of way. 

46:12 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Listen, I feel very confidently that what I was doing was not wrong in any capacity. I just don't want to have to deal with things on the side. 

46:21 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
That's fair. Does he still sell pecs? Oh yeah, oh yeah. 

46:23 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Of course, again, I, I, I think I think Warren sharp I'm just stating opinion here is a winning better. I would think he's a winning NFL totals better. I think that he's the fucking runs Like he. He is the number one at misleading, like newsletters um facts to support his runs widely available number. Like releasing stuff after it moves is a joke man like you can't. 

46:55
You cannot hold yourself to the record of what you've released at when it wasn't available to that. Anyways, we'll keep it moving. It's deleted tweets time. This one was, uh, talked about quite a bit earlier this year in circles I remember it from the summer well, kurt benkert in the summer tweeted chargers are taking my spot at worst team in the nfl this season. 

47:25
What up then it to be patriots then? Saints wouldn't be shocked to see herbert get traded and a full reset in la in the next two years. You'll notice at the bottom of the screen if you're watching on youtube. This post has been deleted. People have started to call him out on deleting this post and we get to his response here. Jacob, if we can move it along, which is if you're going to post a bad preseason, take post the apology. That was not long after where he issued an apology a month later. I was wrong about the Chargers. Please use this as a public apology. I'd love to see them go all in for Herbert with a few receivers, maybe even a tight end between draft free agency and trades. Until then, I will love watching them run the shit out of the ball. 

48:09 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
What sort of shit for brains do you need to have to have watched the league for all those years and to think it's possible that Justin Herbert could lead a bottom three team if he's healthy? Like on what planet? When you watch this league week after week, does Herbert got flaws? Does he have things to prove? Yes, yes, but like what are you talking about? They had a last place schedule. I'm just insulted. That thought even came in anyone's brain in the summer. Put it with the Saints and the fucking patriots and then debbie such the fucking pussy they gotta delete it that you can't even own it kurt, I know I knew right away your first reaction was going to be about the chargers. 

48:54 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, then the deleted. You gotta own it. 

48:56 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
You gotta own it my, I kind of have the opposite opinion, in terms like I don't know that much about football, so it seemed like that was probably a pretty bad take at the time, but I have no problem. Someone going out there and making it yeah fine, whatever, but delete it. Dickless apology. Also. Like whatever I was wrong, totally fine, but exactly like to go and delete the tweet, yes, is just so embarrassed I hate that. 

49:19 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
pretend like they post an apology. I've made up for it, see, but why would you delete it then? 

49:25 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
You're completely embarrassed about it. If you're deleting it, can we go back to the first one? 

49:28 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yes. 

49:33 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Serenity now. 

49:34 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Serenity now, Jeff it is you know, it is you know. I get lost in the first sentence to miss the second one. 

49:43 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
It finds out a bad take. 

49:45 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
No, no, no, no, no no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have no concept of how the league works, just zero. You know how the league works. You know how the salary cap works. You don't know how any general manager thinks. And this is up there with the dumb fucks thinking the Chargers were trading for JJ McCarthy this summer. Yep, yeah, I just need to read that part again. 

50:09 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I actually really used to enjoy Kurt Benkert on YouTube. I used to love his YouTube shorts where he would break down schemes and plays using Madden. He's a very good Madden player. Honestly, I really liked it. It was like you look at how the D's lined up here, I'm going to set this guy in motion. If they do this, I'm throwing to this guy. If they do this, I'm throwing to that guy. It was really good breakdowns. He then came to Twitter and turned into a hot take artist, which is fine. That's his prerogative. That's how he wants to build his brand. When you're a hot take artist, you don't delete old, shitty hot takes. You own it and and he thinks he's owned it by issuing an apology now that it's gone and scrubbed from the internet. You have not owned it, not owned this was your opinion. 

50:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
You've run at some point in time. You're exact, you're running from you know how like many embarrassing hot takes your like cowherds or your Russos have yeah. I know it's just part of the brand. It's part of the business. 

51:06 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Stephen A Smith is like the coldest guy on earth. 

51:10 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
They're not deleting anything. Even the best minds in sports have bad takes 100%. 

51:16 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Absolutely. 

51:17 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I make bad bets every week, Horrible bets. You should see some of the bets I make. I've bet NFL games under it's over in the first half. Baseball games same thing, Baseball first five innings over. 

51:30 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
If it's going to be public, you've got to prepare for it. 

51:33 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, of course this is just the lowest grade. I actually don't know what's a lower grade. Well, I could tell you one, right now A little quickly. 

51:44 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
What we're looking at now. 

51:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
The no comments or the deleting, Like they're both punishable yeah. 

51:51 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, I don't know, which one I hate more? Right in the same realm Maybe deleting. 

51:57 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Deleting might be, I guess, no comments. You create this safety zone, these pillows. I can understand if news organizations want no comments because some things and some stories are so polarizing there's just no point. Just turn comments off. But opinion no comments. 

52:18 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
On sports. 

52:19 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Putting air in your own tire for your like. 

52:21 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Pick record no comments just from a pure like respect point of view. I find it that I respect the person a lot more when they just own the bad take. He had the apology, yeah yeah, no effect like someone roasts you and like you're an idiot about the charger. Quote tweet the guy. I'd be like I was totally wrong about the chargers. 

52:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I will be wrong plenty of times again in the future this is how I felt in the offseason and here's the thing to defend kurt in the sense that, like, obviously, I like, uh my brain went to like chargers radio when I saw that tweet for a moment, but I think it was after week one, where he's like I was wrong, like I'd seen enough in one game. I think that said the 9th, the 13thth of September I feel like September 11th was the first weekend, so it was like one game and he's like you know what? I've seen enough. I take it back. You are now okay. You were wrong, that was stupid, but you didn't take long to break. You got broken after one game and you admitted it. Why do you have to go and delete? 

53:20 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
it. I agree. I'm totally with you On the subject of deleted tweets. Kirk wasn't with us for Circle Back last week. Jason was in studio with us, but as soon as we wrapped up recording last week, our phones were blowing up. 

53:36
This was ugly man and I think people might have thought that we intentionally excluded this. Listen, it's actually pretty sad that we're going to talk about this this week, but everybody is fair game, including Joey Knish, who is a member of the Hammer Betting Network, co-host of Hit the Books. This started with Joey Knish going after a man of the library man of the library. I don't state this as fact, but seems like he's got some mental issues where he thinks that all the sports are fixed delusions of grandeur yeah, something's going on there. 

54:12
Knish tweets minus 1000. Man of the library is broke ugly and hasn't had sex for free in 10 plus years. Totally fair tweet. Yeah. 

54:19 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, I think it's, in the realm, funny. I'm not going to defend Kanish much here. That tweet, I have no problem with it's acceptable. 

54:27 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
It's acceptable For the internet. It's acceptable. It's a whatever tweet as. 

54:31 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Jeff might say it's a punch down. You know you don't punch down Whatever. 

54:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I chuckled. No punching down can be part of a brand and it can work for you, yeah, but I'm saying like, as I don't think it's good for you. 

54:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
If you want to command respect, you don't punch down. 

54:48 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Okay, I'm learning more and more from you weekly. Jeff Dacucci who actually watches a lot of our content, by the way comments on a lot of our shows live in real time. He responds saying big fan of Joey K, just not sure he's the one who should be making this comment. Big house pool, apparent bounty of success, yet terminally alone, crippled by social anxiety and on the wrong side of the attractiveness curve, glass houses, as they say. Too far I would. I would say that, as someone who's experienced mental health issues before and gone through some bad times, the last thing I would want, like Joey, is public, and I will say this is one thing I really respect about Kanish. Okay, he's been very public and forefront with battles with social anxiety. He's talked about this before. People always were like, wow, you're so vocal on the internet but you're scared. He is who he is. I would not go after that. I also tend to not take jabs at people's looks. I think it's kind of a low blow. 

56:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah this tweet. Well, they both did that. They a low blow. Yeah this tweet. Well, they both did that. They both did that. Oh sorry, we're going to get there, don't get me wrong. No, no, no. In the man of the Library tweet, call him ugly. About man of the Library, call him ugly. 

56:11 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
It's just a bit different because Knish in the first tweet. Again, I'm not going to defend Knish here at all once we get to the second tweet, but like we don't know what man in the Library looks like, that's more of a joke. He's a bit of like a wild friend. 

56:23 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It feels less personal. It's much less personal. 

56:26 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
It feels more of like a roast and this is like a very personal attack, especially like you said, Kanish comes out, talks about his anxiety, which is tough to do, and Dikuchi like total cheap shot, A hundred percent. 

56:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
You know, it yeah, like there's other ways to say that Like the pillow is cold. 

56:48 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I, I, you could, you could have said, you could have done this entire tweet with just the last sentence glass houses as they say yeah, yeah, yeah, and it and it would have worked. Listen, and it would have worked. Listen. Not everyone's putting thorough thought into tweets. These are emotional reactions. I get it, but he wasn't involved here. 

57:07 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
But there's also yeah, he got himself involved we watch his hit the books every week. 

57:10 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I see him in the chat. 

57:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
And there's a segment of the internet or of, like the community that I guess anytime Joey takes a shot, they feel like you're not allowed to take, like I guess what you said you're so, you're so out there, you're like you call everyone out, but then it's always a little. We got to be sensitive around Joey. But hey, I don't know, you you're going to send that to Joey. You've got to sort of know the terms of engagement. 

57:45
I would agree Like you can't send that, excuse it doesn't excuse it, but when you send that off you have to now know like the range of outcomes of what can come next is is now like well beyond like the normal scope of a back and forth especially like you clearly are about to pinch a nerve talking about social anxiety yes very open about that. 

58:07 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, that is. That's very much a cheap shot yes, pinch a nerve he did. 

58:13 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes, kanish responds, bro, this you and your girl in quotations, and I'm in the glass house question mark. She looks like a um expletive white walker from game game of thrones get the fuck out of here. We have not included the picture because it's irrelevant, but he did then post a picture of the coochie with his girlfriend yeah, and join a lovely summer day on the boat, like I. 

58:41 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I that was so out of bounds. 

58:44 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I literally saw that in studio last week and I stood here just shaking my head of like there's just certain things that are unwritten rules and you just do not go through someone's social media post a picture, call them unattractive. Or you can go through it for social media post a picture, call them unattractive. 

59:03 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Or you can go through it for your own personal mental bank. He did a lot worse than say unattractive. 

59:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I'll say that that was too far as well on top of scrubbing somebody's personal profile. 

59:15 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
The tweet generally is just unacceptable, like this is, and I'm often in the deep end of fights on Twitter, whatever. Both these tweets, but especially Kanish, are way too far and this is the most unfortunate interaction I've seen on gambling Twitter since I've been there. 

59:36 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I don't think Cucci really knew that it was going to be. Like what's it called a nuclear war? Like destruction, guaranteed destruction, on sure on both sides. That knish totally out of bounds. Like you said, rob unwritten rules, like they kind of exist. You know there's times where things are allowed and things aren't allowed. That to me that's never. That's never allowed. The only time I've ever invoked someone's like anybody, be it wife or spouse, would simply be respond to something vile. They said like if their profile picture is them with their daughter. And then they say the most like disgusting or vile thing to me be like. I hope you don't like talk that way around your beautiful dog. I don't even know, I don't even probably use an adjective Like. That's the only time I feel like I've ever would invoke like family in an Internet war. Well, kanish is on, is on to bring her into. 

01:00:40 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
This is and post a photo is for somebody who has like no beef here whatsoever yeah, and we all kind of live in this in this gambling twitter space. 

01:00:50 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
These are both guys who are like obviously within the space, like there's just not really any reason to get personal like yeah, you can well like he followed it up with like another knife attempt here. 

01:01:03 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Right, I feel bad for knish. I'm sorry I hurt his feelings. The male loneliness epidemic is serious. Again, invoking like the same well listen, he's alone? No joking matter. Could you imagine the pain of being 40 alone, unable to brave social settings, clinging to internet micro fame like he tried to stay? These are both people at fault here yeah, they really are. 

01:01:22 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, yeah, this tweet. I don't fault the coochie for as much because, like sure, it's like you took a low blow, I'm gonna finish. 

01:01:29 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Went nuclear, oh yeah yeah. 

01:01:31 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So like you gotta hit him where it hurts, yeah, once you know you can get a response out of him by doing that. So why not do it again and once? 

01:01:37 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
you go at like you could say all the gross, mean things you want about me. We can just go back and forth with twitter words once you bring like my wife or my family or take it to that place at all, let alone post the picture. Yeah, it's almost like by internet rule. He's got free reign to respond however the fuck he wants like that by unwritten internet rule. Once kanish did that, even if coochie's first thing was over a line. 

01:02:10 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Now it's like bro, you're like you've got like six tweets before we would say call off the dogs yeah, I'm, I agree I'm very conflicted because, uh, personal relationships matter, right and and I like kanish and and we're friends and I. I chat with him online pretty regularly, but my initial reaction was, like this is not good. You and I I messaged him on the side and it's not like I'm running the company. You got to delete this. I'm like listen, like I get it. People come after you. There's certain things that they just they strike a chord with you and you immediately, some people know how to like bottle that up. I'm not actually great at this, but I can. I know where the line is. He crossed the line, very clearly crossed the line and for like, sports gambling. 

01:03:04 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Twitter beef, like I mean, I don't know what, any sort of twitter brief? I that's not okay, anywhere. 

01:03:10
Yeah, no, I'm saying even if you're arguing about politics on twitter with somebody, which is an insane thing to do, um, I don't think that should be allowed to go there, let alone sports gambling Twitter. But like you said, rob, I'm buddies with Joey. We had an exchange this weekend. I think he called me a cuck, I called him a simp. It was all like I like Joey, I think he likes me, so it's like okay, we're just doing our thing. 

01:03:39 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
In a way and I don't want this to be misconstrued in a way I actually really appreciate people who are real okay and like they, they don't hide, they express their feelings. It's kind of like in a way like spanky. 

01:03:56
For me is one of those guys where I just appreciate how he approaches every situation, like himself, and he doesn't hide that, he doesn't. He's not out there to please or like be politically correct, or I appreciate that, but you you have to know where, where that limit is and I think the audience, most people who follow Joey like do appreciate that and the unpredictability of like this guy on the internet. 

01:04:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He's got these social anxiety and issues, but, um, not only does he like sports or love college football, he's got this like very unpredictable angle to him and you have no idea how it's gonna go. And because he's so authentic, that was bad, yes, but I I don't want to say that helped him, but joey, being who he is, helps him way more than like a tweet like that can hurt well, we as much as I think that tweet is way over the line. 

01:04:56 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Oh, that's way over the line and there's things that are like. We experienced something similar with a mutual friend of ours in the past couple weeks. Right me, me and jeff used to work and produce for um cam stewart, who's a good friend of mine, when we were at the score hardcore sports radio and cam was doing a um piece of media where he was talking about the bills and chiefs game. That was upcoming a few weeks ago. Now cam hates the chiefs because he constantly bets against him and loses. It's part of it. He's like oh, they get all the calls and whatever, but he's ranting at this point. Fuck, the chiefs don't want to see them. They get all the calls. I'm sick and tired of this stuff. I feel bad for this. 

01:05:36
The the people of buffalo, the city of buffalo. They've been through a lot. It's not the greatest. They always lose. It would be nice for them to get some sort of win against the Chiefs this week. I'm betting this game out of spite. His co-host says to them something along, brings up a Taylor Swift comment as it relates to the game she's going to be at the game, something along those lines. And he, off the top of his head, very instinct, says, ah, throw her in the falls. Okay, okay. This is the comment. I've known cam my whole life. He is top five nicest people I've ever met, not an exaggeration most generous person you know. I said this when we used to work with him at the score. He's a losing better he would have a winning day. He'd always pay. Come in with coffees the next day, donuts. 

01:06:22 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He is genuinely he'd lose for five straight days. When one horse race, buy pizza for everyone and rob would be like cam. Like I'm not your accountant, but you've lost for five straight days. You don't need to buy us lunch. Yes, exactly it's. 

01:06:35 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It's okay, but that's who he is as a person and he said something instinctually in the moment which, which he regretted, said after. I'm sorry, it was a bad joke and he has suffered Internet hate for two weeks now of people who think he's like a woman hater. Cam would never in a million years harass or abuse a woman. It would never. It's how he is wired as a human being. But because of that one lapse in judgment, he has seen that way by a very large subsection of people and you got to be careful with this stuff and that's like and he's also a bit sensitive. 

01:07:12 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
So the stuff being said on the internet, well it's, it's incredibly harsh. 

01:07:16 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, yeah, people are. 

01:07:17 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I do think we're comparing two different, like what commission did, was a lot worse than that. 

01:07:24 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, I would agree with you. 

01:07:24 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
That's like a pretty throwaway comment that like maybe people are overreacting to because it was on, probably like actual television. It got picked up by like SI and whatever, and that's unfortunate Like obviously, whatever, probably don't say that, but that's like such a throwaway comment I got roasted for defending him. 

01:07:40 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
a week later, I didn't see any of these comments. They're all muted on Twitter. 

01:07:45 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
And also like again, I love Kanish. Yeah, I actually really like him. But it's also different, because he said that on live air as a throwaway comment. This guy had time to think about it. Kanish didn't have to, he typed it out, he didn't have to click send and he clicked send. Yeah. 

01:08:03 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I would just say just never bring up like family. Yeah, always just got to keep it like one on no one on one, because you could be battling like a syndicate. 

01:08:16 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes. 

01:08:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
But you just got to keep it. The internet's not real, but it can become real very quickly when you inject my wife or children into it, I guess, yeah, I don't know, like there's lots of easy ways to roast the coochie. 

01:08:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
And I'm not saying appearance or whatever. I mean the fact that he's watching every episode of Hit the Books and he's I mean, that's a very easy comeback. It's like he spends every week watching him. Like who's got the upper hand in that type of situation, right? 

01:08:51 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
The problem now is like it's kind of obvious how to get to Joey, so I bet you he actually does ignore a lot of stuff. You have to you have to, because there's people that like, just want to like. Their goal is for him to reply and go through their posts and start what he started here yep, yep well, he recognized it. 

01:09:10 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
He deleted the tweet. It doesn't obviously abolish it okay but he deleted it. He recognized he made a mistake. 

01:09:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He didn't exactly apologize for it, but he deleted it right in closing, I think joey's a smart guy and he loves this show, or smarter than we give him credit for. Uh, I check if he tweeted something right now because I feel like he knows to tweet his dumbest stuff. He knows when we record, like, the exact time frame, and I feel like he knows when he wants to tweet his dumbest stuff, to do it and it puts us in a hard spot. But, like you said, we got hit up with a lot of people being like this has to be spoken about almost for this show's credibility, and 100. 

01:09:51 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It was a huge. It was a huge talking point on gambling twitter last week. Sadly, it was can't, uh, can't stray from it. Um big talking point here. Uh, there's the circa survivor that's going on, huge survivor pool 14 million roughly in total prize pool and there was one survivor entry this week with no pick. Didn't happen. Bill Crack tweeted about it 144K in expected value Up in the air. And, as of the time of this recording, I still I know the entry that didn't submit a pick, but have not heard any rationale as to what could have possibly happened. And I'm not gonna lie. Once I saw these tweets coming in it's from my three sons second entry, which was remaining I was thinking to myself, first and foremost. I hope to god this wasn't a proxy mistake and On top of that, I hope it wasn't the proxy that I use because I recommend him to other people. But also I like my mind started to go to bad places Like what could possibly happen for you not to like this has got to be the highlight of your week. 

01:11:21 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
You hope the person's safe and healthy. That should be the first. Well, it's not. 

01:11:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I mean, I was thinking about it from the other side. I know the way you framed it. I was like I was. I'm going to be honest, I wasn't thinking to myself. I'm going to be honest, I wasn't thinking to myself. I hope this person is safe and healthy. I thought I think, like this person might've like the guy must've been in a car accident or something worse, like that's where my mind. 

01:11:43 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Jail. 

01:11:43 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Jail's possible Jail. You got one call, though. 

01:11:47 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Is that one call? 

01:11:49 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
You want to go to a dark place. We could take this to a dark place. 

01:11:53 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Just do it, and then I can cut it if I have to. 

01:11:55 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
No no, no, no, no. This is just no, because this is just fair and balanced thought. Who would have to die in your life for you to still not get the pick in? Like, let's say he's alive. Like I could like I'm not even trying to be rude, god forbid you could be in a state where something happened, something happened unexpected. Can I be honest? No one. 

01:12:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You're going to tell me no one, there's a chance. No one, I would probably get to pick in no matter what. Yeah, exactly, I hate to say that, but I'm leveling with you right now. 

01:12:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
If I had a chance to win $14 million. 

01:12:32 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That is life-changing money for me. I would. Yeah, that is life-changing money for me. I would that's life-changing money your whole family 100. Get that pick in. Maybe, maybe I'm not researching and predicting like you know who what, because lots of people put I know people that are still left in this and they are spending days, 20 hours a week, trying to predict the path other people are gonna pick sure the journey that like and and they're celebrating when the selection counts come out based off of if they ended up on a team that was like lowly selected. 

01:13:04
So there's people putting what I put 20 hours it was worth 144 in expected value. 

01:13:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
What was the reset? The cash street value of it like 80k there no more like 140. 

01:13:17 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, like someone would pay, someone would probably get somebody to pay 200 200 yeah, people overpay for it shows a little, I know I just hope. I hope it's a funny story, not a bad story, I know that's really what? 

01:13:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
uh, jail is an interesting one, it no? 

01:13:33 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
but jail, you could still get it through. I think you lose track of time, right? 

01:13:38 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't know. I've never been in a jail cell, but I imagine there's not a clock on the wall, but you've got to be in some real hard jail. 

01:13:44 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Like. 

01:13:44 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I don't You're in a drunk tank you know, I've never been in jail, but I believe there's like levels of jail where it's like you've got to be taken in for something pretty serious, to be like totally removed. 

01:13:57 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I mean the picks are due Saturday by 4 pm Eastern time. I mean this is through Circa in Las Vegas, in Nevada. I've been hiking in Red Rock before you know bad phone reception there's lots of, if you've made it this far. 

01:14:16 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
You have dedicated a lot of time to getting this far, or else you wouldn't be in this position. Yeah, like okay, you have, like it, planned out how you're going to get that pick in. You've got contingency plans, it's not just like oh it's Saturday, I better get my pick in. 

01:14:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
How many people do you actually think have contingency plans? 

01:14:33 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I know I pick it. How many people do? 

01:14:34 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
you actually think have contingency plans. I mean I did in like week four I have a 3.30 calendar reminder every week and I get an alert on my phone to submit my picks. That's for circa millions and for Survivor, I'm out of Survivor. 

01:14:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
If you were going on a hike like the day picks were in, would you not be like, okay, dude, listen if you don't? 

01:14:54 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
hear from me by this time, just send us in the pic. Yeah, I honestly, that's why my mind deviated to like worst possible, because that's what I mean. 

01:15:00 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I literally I was thinking any chance, if I'm gonna be in, uh, my mother-in-law's condo without reception during time, I'm going to pre-approve something that if you don't hear from me, yeah, you don't even need to see a bat signal, you just have the authority to go ahead or you don't do anything that could give a possibility that you don't get your pick in. 

01:15:23 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
It would have to be so. You'd probably submit your pick right near the deadline. Am I wrong? 

01:15:27 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Well, yeah. So this is really interesting. This Frank B tweet got me Ties win right. The line on hospital event has to be the favorite, at minus 150 or so I probably agree. But the last line is if they have a proxy and the proxy did not just submit a pick, then get a new proxy. 

01:15:44 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Well, getting a new proxy doesn't matter much now. 

01:15:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Well, but for next year but I always wondered like put your? And I don't know that this guy was submitting via proxy, he might have actually been submitting himself. 

01:15:54 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Is it confidential Like Benson, it's like legality would not be allowed to tell a story. Even if they know a story, they obviously don't, but I don't think they would disclose. 

01:16:02 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, I doubt they would I doubt they would disclose. 

01:16:04 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Maybe that's worth reaching out to Jeff Benson for. But if you're the proxy for this person, you're just making a random and the deadline hits and you're like I assume I'll tell you my, my proxy would just make you a pick. 

01:16:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Happened only one time, last year. 

01:16:17 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Pick for you? No, but he messaged me out like late and he reminded he's like rob, I haven't gotten your things yet. 

01:16:23 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I mean you're special, though you're not, I mean you're not the normal person here you have a very special relationship but, this deep like, yeah, wouldn't the proxy just make a pick? 

01:16:33 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
even if it was even if it was the panthers like I'm making a pick, proxies, like they follow this, they know it, like they'll make a fine pick. You would think like it's not like they're. 

01:16:44 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, they know the complete exactly. There's no point spreads. 

01:16:47 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Not all the proxy contracts, but some of them would have a stipulation for a percentage of winnings yes, well, absolutely so it would be. 

01:16:54 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
They're invested in winning, they're invested in it. 

01:16:56 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes. 

01:16:56 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Could be small. Whatever, that's their fine print. Yeah, I would honestly appreciate that if the emergency where I don't make a pick, you're riding or dying for me now. 

01:17:06 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, I'm worried. It's probably not a proxy. 

01:17:08 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Well, I'm in like a much, much actual darker place than he's dead, because there's a darker thing than he is dead, so sorry, there is. 

01:17:17 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, like what I've ducted by enlighten me like a god. 

01:17:21 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I'd rather he's kidnapped and I would rather be dead than like something happened to my child. Oh, of course so that's what I'm saying, like there's actually a worse story than this guy's dead. Yes, hopefully that's what I'm saying, and then you have no idea what sort of yeah just saying there's. You could put yourself in a dark enough headspace to see how someone could miss a deadline as we're talking here. Um, you know just among dudes. 

01:17:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Well, net, listen at this point. The pick didn't go in, he's eliminated, or she, I would hope at this point it's just like I slept through an alarm or something and it's not anything serious. 

01:17:55 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
So my three sons too. I guess there's so many people I'd say, wouldn't they know who the guy is? That's a dumb comment, Jeff. 

01:18:02 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I hope everything's OK for my three sons too. Before we get into our next topic, I do want to remind you we are sponsored by Pinnacle Sportsbook right here. I've been betting with Pinnacle for a very long time in Ontario. I stand by the book. They've been very good to me over the years in terms of offering me fair limits, good customer service, easy to get money in and out Everything that I could basically ask for from a sports book as a pro bettor. Find out what pro bettors have known for the past 25 years. 

01:18:31
Pinnacle is where the best bettors play. You must be 19 plus. Not available in the US, as always. Please play responsibly. If you do want to check out Pinnacle in Canada, head over to pinnaclecom. Slash hammer, all right. A few more topics to go. My guy Pips. I love Pips man. For those that don't know, we do have a channel that Jacob is a part of the Board HQ on YouTube. You can get it in audio form on Spotify or Apple Podcasts Daily basketball betting show. Jacob hosts. Pips is the co-host. Pips is in Croatia. Very, very smart NBA betting mind. 

01:19:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Very, very good NBA better yes. 

01:19:12 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Strongly encourage you to check that out. Action Network HQ. Tweets Trailblazers versus Thunder best bet under 224. The bottom line here says play the under 224. I make this number 214.5 and feel comfortable playing it to 216. Pips then quote tweets that these posts are so stupid. They claim that they have a 9.5 point edge on on the NBA line. Play up to 216 is insane. Kirk, you bet the NBA. How often do you have nine and a half point edges on the totals? 

01:19:43 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I will say every now and then DraftKings will open a completely insane total, but this was in the middle of the day. Like, quite literally, there has not been a nine and a half point total move. 

01:19:55 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
That's not injury related the day of in the nba, since I've been betting it you're not going to give out an opener though no, so I mean you could have a price that's horribly off? 

01:20:07 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
no, but this was 224, was the price at 230? 

01:20:12 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
that, yeah, I think you sometimes see prices that are nine to half points off, but that's an opener. You're never gonna give out. 

01:20:18 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yes, you're getting out, so they can't possibly have this edge yeah, and this is something Action Network and specifically Matt Moore does all the time and talks about all the time. I actually track him on Action Network. 

01:20:29 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
He's down units all time on his Action Network with like careful he might offer you a million dollar competition to prove that he's down units and he tracks, he tracks. 

01:20:38 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
It's his tracking, not my tracking. He tracks it. He's down all time, despite hitting like a massive, like 70 unit future. He's like plus 70 units on futures way negative off everything. I don't know for sure this is Matt Moore, but I'm sure it is. 

01:20:59 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Could be the action network, ai, we don't know. Yeah, it could be the paywall. Yeah, this is just like, obviously so the most ridiculous thing. I don't know that it'd be possible to know the answer, but in this case and I've never like been curious about this ever when I've seen someone make a pick on the internet, touting a pick and I could get into action network but I feel like they've just such I mean, they tarnish their brand daily. Um, how much money do you think this guy bet on this game? 

01:21:25
50 bucks maybe I've never cared about that thought, but no one's thinking, I'm just curious no, it's irrelevant, no, but I'm curious when you like how, like you write for action I know there's difference in betters and like guys who, just you know, write for content, how can you have a 10 point edge? And and I bet I don't even think the guy's- actually betting the game. 

01:21:50 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Well, you might not be well, here's the thing, right. 

01:21:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Um, you know I finally come around. I'm gonna mention fezik again, because last year, on forward progress, we used to give out our best bets and what. The number was good too. And fezik's like enough of this shit, like the the good two stuff and whatever, and for a while I'm like, well, people should know what they're, they should be willing to bet it up to and whatever. But the problem is in this specific instance, and what happens a lot is if you actually think the number is good to something that is so far off market. The problem is the number Obviously Right, like even in the NFL. 

01:22:29
Like if you give out a midweek NFL game and you're the market is at three and you're like this is good to minus six, like you're wrong, I'm sorry. This is a very highly liquid market with tons of people betting into it. You're just fucking plain wrong. 

01:22:47 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, plain and simple and not only is it interesting how much they actually bet, I think it's an an even more important point that if he was right and the fair line was 214.5 and he's a big better and the under was 224, he could have bet unlimited on 224 before it got to 216. That's the biggest edge you'll have in your life, if it's true. So just the fact that it was still 224 and he wrote it exactly he's obviously wrong. 

01:23:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I guess what I'm saying is I don't anticipate Moore treated this like a Paul Tyson opportunity, no, which he should have. Which is yeah at 10 points, of course. 

01:23:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes, we're also assuming it's Moore, because Kirk has a personal vendetta obviously. 

01:23:33 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
No, but I listen to, even know who wrote this. So you think? 

01:23:35 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
this is the type of write-up he would do. 

01:23:37 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
He always says stuff like this I make the total 265 and the total is 230. Like. He says stuff like that very often, so maybe that's just what Action Network is, but he's also kind of their NBA guy, so it would not surprise me at all. 

01:23:51 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You know. You know, what this really lacks is self-awareness. Yes, because I often think this is not the first time again. It just happened to be this week. It happened to be pips quote tweeting an action network. It could have been any brand, I know, I know it feels like we're picking on action network at this point. It just happened to be this. But the self-awareness to say that this is what the number should be when the limit what are midday limits on nba totals like on the board. 

01:24:22 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, you probably could get like 30 40 grand, just like very easily move the number right. 

01:24:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So to tweet that it. It shows a lack of awareness of how the betting market works. Right, this happens all the time. It's like I make this get you know, the money line in this nhl game is minus 130, I make it 221. It's like, well, you're fucking wrong and don't tweet that because it makes you look like an idiot. The smartest bettors know that you're a complete idiot when it comes to that. So that, to me, always gets me about these things. It's's like they don't even really have the awareness to realize that by putting this publicly onto paper, it is such an absolute terrible look. 

01:25:03
This isn't in our lineup, but I do want to bring it up just because I thought of it right now, making a last second pivot. I'm, I am, um, I could pull it up on my phone, but I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to paraphrase in my head. You had a tweet this week, kirk, about being on the right or wrong side of gambling Twitter. Yeah, the wrong side is all these specific behaviors. The right side is these specific behaviors. It's basically separating, like, the recreational version from the sharp version. 

01:25:33
You did say on the wrong side of gambling Twitter are collabs. Yeah, I will say the first time I was recommended to get pips for the hammer. I went through his feed and I saw that he was doing collabs with other content creators and I thought to myself there's no way this guy is actually a winning better. Who recommended him to me? It was only after talking him and to him and consuming his content for a couple months. I'm like you know what? This guy has broken the rule sharp basketball better doing collabs. When are we going to see, uh, when are we going to see other sharp content creators get into collabs? What? 

01:26:18 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
do you mean collabs, like when travis scott gets a mcdonald's combo? 

01:26:23 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
no, like, like release a play on twitter and be like this is a collab with another person who releases plays like it's a like it's a song. Together it's a song pips is one of those rare guys who absolutely wins and is very sharp, but, exactly like you said, he was on the wrong side of gambling. 

01:26:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Twitter and acted like that. I'd like to believe, though, rob. If you told me you and hitman were having lunch and out of that lunch birthed a prop, I would think like-. 

01:26:58 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That would never happen. 

01:26:59 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Like it wouldn't. It's promotion, it's promotion, it's promotion, it's very good promotion. It's the stuff we should actually be doing but that we find it so cringeworthy that we don't do it. 

01:27:08 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
At least I can speak on my behalf. 

01:27:10 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Also, a problem with collabs is, even if you're winning better, if you're posting plays, you're probably moving the market when you post it. So when you're collabing, it allows you and another person to put this play on your record, while both of you are moving the play immediately when you post it. So it's kind of like doubling up a play for you. 

01:27:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Pardon my ignorance, but a lot of these bigger groups. We're not collaborating on place no, no, no, but like uh, doesn't it all go? They have all these people and they work and they make picks, but the picks have to go up through, like the main guy, to get released in some ways. Isn't that, yes, a collab of sorts? 

01:27:52 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I guess you know what. You had a guest on a show and they gave a pick. Wouldn't that be a collab, Like if you bring somebody on for primetime NFL, they give out a player prop. 

01:28:00 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
No no. 

01:28:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
That's not a collab. Yeah, you and. 

01:28:03 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Jason are giving collabs every week. 

01:28:06 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I guess. Listen, I'm about 90% decided that in December I'm going to run my twitter account like a recreational sports better I look forward as a sociological experiment your account's gonna grow but but I'm gonna be doing some, me and you, jeff, are doing some collabs okay, in december. 

01:28:24 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
So it's gonna be like threat you're gonna do like a thread and like here's the top. 

01:28:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It's like me and jeff put our head together for there's no pga events right in december. No well, we're gonna find some golf event that we put our head together for there's no PGA events right In December. No Well, we're going to find some golf event that we put our heads together on. We're going to find. By the way, I mean this isn't in the script either. Did you realize there was this massive like match last week with Bill Charles Barkley Bill Murray. 

01:28:51 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I saw it last week. I saw it after the fact yeah Was this not the worst Promoted event. 

01:28:57 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
In the history of the world. 

01:28:58 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I think there's another one this week for Thanksgiving, I think. Well, like a real one, but they still Scotty and Rory Versus Bryson and Brooks. 

01:29:08 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Why are they not promoting these bad guys? I want to watch these, these matches. 

01:29:12 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
They're like a fart in the wind, but I like them these better. 

01:29:14 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I want to watch these matches. They're like a fart in the wind, but I like that. I like them because I listen. 

01:29:16 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I hate it when they have the airpods in their ear. 

01:29:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I can't watch here's the thing I I watch youtube golf. I love youtube golf. 

01:29:23 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Same yes right, it's fine, I love bob does sports. 

01:29:26 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I love bryson's uh channel. I used to watch rick shield. He's a little too dry for my liking, but I love youtube golf, so that is like an extension of youtube golf for me. Yeah, fair, fair. 

01:29:39 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
But how did I not? 

01:29:39 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
see this event. 

01:29:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
There was so many like I didn't even know that the race was in walberg. I didn't even know that the f1 race was in vegas last week that's because they don't care about us, they just care. But I mean compared to last year. Like in the week lead up, I couldn't miss it. 

01:29:54 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Sure yeah. They just want the billionaires to fly in and gamble. 

01:29:59 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Sure, I'm just saying it was a lot quieter. 

01:30:01 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I feel I would agree with you on that, I would agree. Anyways, I've taken us on different tangents here. Volatility Last Thursday night for Thursday night football, we had Cleveland Browns Pittsburgh Steelers game played in Cleveland Lake Effect. We saw the weather change pretty drastically in that game, with a lot of snow in the second half. Farley Betts tweeted action addicted prop bettors are going to lose massive amounts of money tonight because even in volatile weather they can't resist. You do not have to bet every game. My God, Mr Peanut Better, who I'm quite fond of nowadays, If you don't know how to price the weather, it's fine to stay away. But the idea of volatility or nonstandard conditions is bad for betters, is 100% wrong. These are the best spots for betters, especially if you have less sophisticated tools. Slash models Um, we use a lot of this show to talk about gossip. This is probably a good chance to educate people on why volatility is actually good for sports bettors. 

01:30:59 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Absolutely so. This Farley Betts tweet is like the classic. It's like oh, you must be the biggest degenerate in the world if you bet on the preseason, when the preseason is literally the easiest time to win. If you think about betting on a spectrum of something is 100% predictable versus 0% predictable, obviously, if something's 100% predictable, the books will just be able to price it perfectly and have absolutely no possibility of an edge. So once you start going down that spectrum of predictability, it becomes much easier for bettors to win. So if you're like Peanutbutter said not sophisticated, better, you could say I'm going to just dedicate all my easier for betters to win. So if you're like peanut butter said not sophisticated better, you could say I'm gonna just dedicate all my time to this crazy weather game. There's gonna be more off-market prices and I'm gonna find a few edges. Yeah, that is so much more realistic than betting on, you know, main side the day up well at the end of the. 

01:31:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I'll use NFL because I'm betting a lot of NFL right now. But if you have a game where both teams are healthy and whether you know it's a domed environment, it's not really hard for people to price anything in that game. Side total player props, it's pretty straightforward. Once you start having OK O-line issues, the weather's out. You know bad weather, this and that. Now you have this divergence in the market, right? 

01:32:19
You look at that cleveland pittsburgh game. All the early money on the total came on the under open 41 and a half soft opener got back pretty quickly but you could pretty widely have gotten like a 40, 39 and a half under. Got bet down to 36, 36 and a half bet back up. You get like a really wide range there of when you could have came in the market and found a valuable bet. You got that with a lot of player props. You got the live in-game market which, listen, I make my fair share of mistakes. Um, I'm gonna get roasted by friends who are like oh, rob only talks about like winning situations. But snow started coming down in that game and some people were hammering the live market under. 

01:32:59 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I bet Pittsburgh under 10.5 second half. 

01:33:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Okay because of the snow. 

01:33:04 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Just the pace, the snow under 10.5 second half and even to a certain point it looked like we were fine, even when they got to 10, I thought I could get out of this, but then it all just flipped. 

01:33:15 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So Thursday night I did not do the live watch along for forward progress because I was fucking ill Sick I don't know if it was food poisoning, stomach flu but I could not have been on air doing that entire game. But I was in my basement watching that game and the snow's coming and I'm like, all right, right, I'm gonna start betting this game. And I'm noticing that every time the odds get posted they're getting hit towards the under and I'm thinking to myself I'm like I don't believe that this. You know, listen, someone's got an opinion that it's I mean, the wind wasn't too bad, it's just snow. 

01:33:50
What do we know about snow in the nfl usually favors the offense, not in every instance, but I'm like I'm gonna take position and that's like the divergence you see in market. Nobody really knows how to price that. You get multiple opinions on that. That was a really nice winning night for me and all I had to do was like apply some logic. But it was also created by other people going the opposite way, absolutely and not even for kind of like you're saying I'm more sophisticated, better. 

01:34:17 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
There's so much more likelihood that the game is wrong near close on a game with massive uncertainty. But it's not like these books take way less limits when there's massive uncertainty. So those are the games or types of situations where you can have massive amounts of money and be confident on something even if you're not with the clothes. It's kind of like the paul tyson fight where you could get unlimited money on that, yeah, and take a position and it could be wrong at club yep so I could totally see why, to the casual better the unknowns screams, stay away. 

01:34:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I agree there's unknowns here and that, like you know, and in some ways, farley, you know, like in some other people we've spoken about tonight, that tweet in some ways is a tell, because on the other side of it, when I games like that, I know for a fact I'm lucky enough to be a flight on a wall in a forward progress discord where I know, like the lack of consensus, the unknown, creates a lack of consensus across the betting market and that is where the pros are just foaming at the mouth, yep. For the alts, yep. I see how you guys are talking to each other on these weather games and and you're foaming at the mouth because of the lack of consensus in the market and where that lack of consensus works in your advantage. And then you 3X that by finding the alts where the lack of the consensus, and then boom goes the dynamite. 

01:35:48 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Well, you brought it up, so I'll bring it up now that you've said it. I'm thinking of the biggest wins I've had betting sports. That you've said it, I wasn't gonna like. I'm thinking of the biggest wins I've had betting sports and generally they are around um hard to predict events right, and one of them would have been I want to say it was monday night football three or four years ago in buffalo was buffalo new england jason was at the game, producer jason, but it was. 

01:36:12 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It was extreme wind game josh allen didn't hit his rushing prop in that game. 

01:36:16 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Mac jones threw three pass attempts in that game. Right, if you know that going into a game you're, you're betting unders in every capacity, alt under which is exactly what I did, and I'm just taking a stance that like this is. 

01:36:30
I mean, listen, the unders got the under got bet in that game, but I was was like no, no, no, this is not enough for these conditions. You look at this past week in the NFL, right, people? You know my wife sits down with me on for football on Sunday, the one, the one o'clocks. She's like what do we need? I'm like it doesn't matter. She's like what do you mean? It doesn't matter. You always tell me what we're on. I'm like we need Green Bay to win by a lot of points today and that's in the four o'clock slate. So it doesn't matter what we're cheering for here. And just an example for that game and again, this is self-serving pat on the back, but maybe you can use it as some sort of educational moment Brock Purdy is announced as injured earlier this week, before they even practice, which is unusual. 

01:37:12
So on Tuesday, you know that Brock Purdy is dealing with a shoulder injury on his throwing shoulder. On Wednesday, first injury reports come out in the NFL because teams practice the first time. Brock Purdy takes the field but does not throw a ball. He just goes through what they called mental reps with the team. Okay, thursday called mental reps with the team. Okay, thursday he takes the field, he throws like a half dozen balls. There's a san fran beat writer who's like there's no zip on these balls. After the practice, purdy is supposed to talk at their presser and he doesn't show up for it and the team announces he's getting medical attention. 

01:37:51
This game is. Pride is right now green bay minus two, which is the fair price, assuming brock purdy is 100 healthy. I now think there's a high likelihood he's not 100 healthy. He might not play. My immediate type of reaction to this is I'm going to bet green bay in, not only the spread but as many alt spreads as possible, because if we get a backup game here, brandon allen, I'm going to be sitting on incredible numbers and there's a blow out potential. And that, to me, is why uncertainty in sports betting is your friend, because you can jump on these types of things beforehand. I mean, I saw fezik do it. He teased through zero and people are like fezik. Why the fuck are you teasing through zero? You're an idiot. Well, he knew the line was going to move the other way, to like minus six well, he knew his six point teaser was going to be a 10 point teaser. 

01:38:45
Yeah, so that's why it's not my, it's not what my first reaction would have been for that game I'm looking for, like the upside, rather than the safe play, but that's what volatility and that's what it creates in sports. 

01:38:59 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
You're not getting four points of CLV on an NFL spread midweek with no uncertainty. 

01:39:05 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes, I love when both teams Wednesday injury reports come out and there's like fucking 24 players on the list. I love that in the nfl because I can get an edge simply by parsing through news and pricing the probabilities of players playing in games. 

01:39:22 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I love that much better than the clean injury reports, but you also see the center on that sucker and know that that matters more than the fantasy bros. Like guys who will start on a fantasy lineup is what I mean by fantasy bros yeah, yeah, fair enough. 

01:39:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Anyways, volatility can be your friend. Uh, let's end on this, because I saw this and I immediately loved it. Uh, br betting tweeted betting on roomba pool is the definition of betting on anything. Um, for those who are watching on youtube, we got an image up here, but essentially you got all the pool tape, all the balls on the pool table. You put a Roomba out there. It starts to move around in random directions as the balls get sunk, as we'll play on the video here. Uh, money gets exchanged and I'm thinking to myself as I'm watching this. I'm like, wow, I, me and my friends could easily get lost doing something like this. 

01:40:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Like this is an absurdly great game. I am so jealous of this Because, you can see, this is just dudes having a good time in their Red Cups, in their Yetis, with their cans, in someone's like lodge house or cabin. Like I am so jealous of the whole setup, let alone this magnificent gambling game. Yes, Everything going on here makes me jealous and you know, at the point in my life where, like, getting together with friends is just like painfully rare. 

01:40:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, so I'm jealous of everything that just went on. I saw Kenny's tweet, which was I'm dead serious. I could stand at this pool table for hours. This looks like a perfect Friday night with the boys, and you know it, does, it, does it, does, it, does it really does, absolutely. 

01:41:10 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It does. 

01:41:12 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
It's hard to disagree. 

01:41:13 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I will say you know my friends and I have come up with so many random betting games through life, just stuff where it just comes down to chance. But it's so fun and this is an exact I mean I will do this, I will do this. I got a pool table at the new place. This is happening, it's already done. 

01:41:33 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
So how would it work? 

01:41:34 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
You bet on a color to go first, I think you're betting on which hole it's going to go, in which pocket? 

01:41:42 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, we used to play a game called Poker Pool back in the day, where you would just get issued five cards off a deck and once you sank those balls, you would win. So you could probably do something similar here, where you're just dealing out cards to people or randomly assigning balls to people. 

01:42:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
There's a lot of markets available. There's tons. 

01:42:04 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, exactly, I mean I would like to book this market, nevermind play like a 50-50 with friends, but this is fun. I love betting games, one that was introduced to me a long time ago which I found fun. It I love betting games, one that was introduced to me a long time ago which I found fun. It's weird, though. You've got to have the right group of people, but it's very much like a party-style game. 

01:42:19
I was at an event in Vegas and the Wizard of Odds, mike Shackelford, was there. I'll never forget the Wizard of Odds and I didn't know this guy and he just came up to me and he tapped me on the shoulder and, uh, he's like I bet you 20 bucks that if I go ask nick costos who's nick costos over there, who was the, the president of the united states in 19 I don't remember what year 54 I'll give him two guesses and I bet he can't get it. And I'm like you're on, let's do it. And we went, nick got it, and I'm like all right, and he just kept giving me all. 

01:42:58
He's like I bet you we go up to that person over there and we ask him you know who the minister of education is in his home state? And he's not. You know he'll get it. I'm like sure, let's do it. And we just repeatedly did this and the the questions were getting like wait, he's clearly played this before and had a bunch lined up, but it's like I'm gonna go ask this guy to reduce 18 over 100 into its lowest common form as a fraction. Can he get it? And I played that game for three hours, eventually got sick of it, but I was like this is fun I might steal that game. 

01:43:33 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
It's pretty. I might steal that. That sounds really I do love gambling games. 

01:43:37 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I do during covid when there was no sports. So I would be my friends do gambling games. We don't bet money, we bet drinks on it, so if you lose, you drink more. Our favorite, one of our favorites during covid, when there was no sports at all, we would watch marble races on youtube and we would choose a marble at the start of the race and then based on how poorly your marble did relative to the other competitors, that's how many drinks you had to do. 

01:44:04 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That was a lot of fun, love that Drinking games and gambling games are both right up there. When you can combine the two hand in hand, it's even better. Jacob didn't tell you he was watching the marble races before his buddies got over. 

01:44:15 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
he knew he knew the scouting they're like why, 

01:44:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
has this video been three quarters viewed already. He's like, oh nothing, it was accident, misclick, misclick you could, you could do that yeah yeah although you'd have to really remember like all the videos. 

01:44:29 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
There's like 30 marbles in each video. It would be pretty impressive to remember that. But yes, you could get a big edge there, all right. 

01:44:35 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That's going to do it for this week's episode. As a reminder, hashtag circle back on Twitter If you see something that you want us to talk about. I review them every single week, so make sure you use that hashtag. Hashtag circle back on Twitter. Drop us a comment below. If you're not subbed to Iran Circles Off, make sure you're subbed A new episode of Circles Off, dropping Thursday with just myself, rob Pizzola. It's a very different episode. You might love it, you might hate it, but I think you should check it out regardless. Peace out everyone. We'll see you next week.