How You Can Make Money Betting On The World's Most Infamous CEO | Presented by Kalshi

00:00 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
coming up in today's episode of Circle Back. 

00:03 - Joey Knish (Host)
If I want to do. You know Joey Love Island theory here. Maybe she reacted, played it up a bit because she's been wanting Mr Andy to leave his wife here. 

00:13 - Chinamaniac (Host)
If you tried that at the 2040 game at Foxwoods 2040 limit game, there's a 50% chance you're getting punched in the face. We all know Trump does a lot of stuff that doesn't happen. 

00:26 - Joey Knish (Host)
So tell us why this is different I'm looking at the photo here. 

00:29 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
What look at the sides of this thing? What could possibly be in this book like? What could possibly fill up all of these pages? 

00:36 - Chinamaniac (Host)
when I first read this tweet, the first thing I said was this guy's a big time fucking loser. 

00:41 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
I mean so I saw some ulterior theories that I think might be true here, that he doesn't want to get exposed. 

00:48 - Chinamaniac (Host)
One thing I want to leave with all the listeners. 

00:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Here is disclaimer. The content presented in this show is intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any individuals or organizations mentioned. Statements made about public figures or entities are based on publicly available information. Thank you, own opinions. 

01:41
It's Circle Back here on the Circles Off channel. It's part of the Hammer Betting Network and presented by Calchi. This is the show where we cover the latest and greatest stories from gambling Twitter, and sometimes those stories go beyond gambling, but they still very much involve Twitter. We had the biggest story, I think, in the world, which we are going to cover today with a little bit of a betting spin, and I can't wait for you guys to get to that point. So make sure you stick around for the full episode today With myself, your host, jacob Grummenia, lead producer here at the Hammer, and your host as always on Circle Back, our usual crew for these Friday episodes. 

02:17
First of all, we have Fluff no Lie Chris Dierkus in the bottom left corner. We have Joey Knish in the bottom right corner left corner, we have joey knish in the bottom right corner. And our fourth for today is china. At china maniac. He's been a previous guest here on circles off with an interview which I'm going to link in the description below. A very good interview for you to check out. He's a 17 year gambling pro and he's part of the gambling chronicles podcast, china. Thank you so much for joining us today hey, thanks for having me on appreciate it very much. 

02:45
The pleasure is ours. Uh, knish, we see your joey corporate today out in the office yeah, you know what? 

02:51 - Joey Knish (Host)
uh, listen, I mean I, I knew I had the best hair on the show. Uh, after isaac left and uh, china's, china's not giving me a run for my money on that, so, uh, happy to have him on. But yeah, yeah, a little. 

03:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Uh, you know what the the clock never stops here for for joey, uh, joey, joey on the grind putting in the hours, putting in that nine to five, but we do have somebody who might be able to help you. Leave that nine to five condition. We have the easiest way to get out of that nine to five work and become a professional in the sports betting space, but it's not necessarily. 

03:26
Exactly. It's not in the way you might think. That is exactly what it is. It is about creating a dub club or a WAP. We have chef parlay at one snow G who said if you ever feel like giving up, remember this I quit my nine to five over a year ago. The very next month, I ran up $60,000. And now, just a year ago, the very next month, I ran up sixty thousand dollars. And now, just a year later, I've touched over a quarter million dollars. 

03:49
Bet on you every time. This was screenshot it by spinfluencer, who does content similar to what we do here on circle back, but does it on twitter covering these sorts of stories, and quotes it by saying bet on you every time, but also bet on me by giving me money for losing picks the inspiration we all needed at 5 am. And this is kind of the story with these wops and these sub clubs. It's not about actually providing a winning service and making money in that way, kanish. It is about how much money they are making off of the people that are subscribing to the picks. What do you think on that, kanish? 

04:22 - Joey Knish (Host)
it's amazing how many of these like are. This is like commonplace. Now. We see like one a week where one of these people who've built up an insane following from um, just you know doing uh, you know eight leg parlays, home run parlays, nba parlays, and they're talking to you about, oh, how like is great, I'm flying to Spain, I don't have to work anymore. But it's never about like how much. It's almost I don't even know. Like how can't people compute this? It's not even like how much money I've made gambling or betting. It's. It's like WAP, dub Club, all these subscriptions. They changed my life. It's unbelievable and it's. 

05:01
But it's just subscription money that the people are paying you for pics. It's not actually I've won anybody money or I've myself been successful, or maybe they'll give you that cover story. It's I'm getting this x amount of pay. You've even seen people screenshot the payouts. Like you think I'm a pretender? Look how much I'm getting paid. It's like that. That's the fucking dub club subscription fees. You idiot. Like this. Like this is. This is a. I don't know. Maybe this is the new people used to go to work around here at the motor city, you know, on the line for Ford or GM and earn a living. This is the new. Now it's either you know streamer or dub club, or you know whatever fluff does. 

05:42 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Wow, what did I do to get attacked there? But I think I want to touch on something you mentioned the cover story. In this tweet we saw the cover story. She, chef Parley, said that she ran up 60K in one month, implying that she bet and made 60K in one month. 

06:00
And I think, like most of the dub clubbers and wop guys do a good job, in my opinion, of like really going with the cover story that hey, it's fanduel that they're profitable off of. Which draft kings are the profitable off of? And of course, you have the dum-dums that like show like their dub club earnings for the month and it's like, okay, if that's what you're flexing, you're not even like, you're not even trying here. It's pretty sad when, like, anyone pushes back at them and asks for like proof of like winning slips or proof of like their pnls, and they're like, oh, I bet on stuff on the side that I don't share them to my subscribers and I can't, I can't give that out. It's just like all this is obvious tells. I don't know how they get so many subscribers. I wish I had low enough morals to do it, because then I would probably make a killing too. 

06:48 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
But uh, unfortunately I'm not that kind of person yeah, I always wonder where the subscribers come from, uh, but we'll go to you china, on this one. You're you're pretty vocal about not paying for any services, not paying for stuff like this. You think that if you connect with the right people, you can make money in sports betting. What are your thoughts on something like this? 

07:09 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Yeah, I mean, that's the name of the game Connect with the right people network and let you know, just let them do the work. I just you know, it looks like this is we got a female here selling, you know, selling picks, that's it. Do you get a bunch of followers across social media and you just sell picks? 

07:29 - Joey Knish (Host)
And the chef cooks up the parlay for you. As our former co-host Nadu would say, she's in the kitchen cooking up parlay for you and earning some money, so maybe not such a bad gig. 

07:42 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Yeah, one thing we were talking about before we went live was you know Mizraki wins nine or ten all-ins in a row. It was one in 364 to hit all nine or ten of those. The odds of this person here running up this much gambling in a month is probably triple that. So I don't know. 

08:04 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
We're going to get to Mizraati a little bit later on, as you can see with the rundown, but without further ado, let's get into the biggest topic in the world. I think this was absolutely everywhere over the last 24 hours up until our recording and I imagine it will still be dominating news feeds, twitter feeds, even when this comes out, friday 8 am Eastern time. So we had a video that was posted to TikTok, I think it's by at Instagrace. It says and this made rounds from Pop Crave at Pop Crave, who showcased Coldplay's Chris Martin accidentally exposing astronomer CEO Andy Byron having an affair with his CPO, kristen I think it's Cabot, and there's a video of them on the big screen at the Coldplay concert and he's got his arms around her. Looks like they're having a good time, but as soon as the camera pans to them, there is a look of fear and horror. Quickly Andy Byron ducks out of frame, kristen Cabot quickly turns around. Very awkward situation. Coldplay's lead singer, kristen Martin, immediately said either they're extremely shy or they're having an affair. Well, it turns out it was the latter. We see here from the Astronomer website astronomerio. If you don't know what Astronomer is, by the way, it's a tech company that helps businesses manage their data workflows, making it easier for the companies to schedule, monitor, fix data processes. Whatever, it's a big company. It's worth over a billion dollars. Andy Byron here is the CEO. As I said, chris and Cabot, on their website, listed as the CPO Chief People Officer. 

09:47
Immediately after this and this became big uh, annie byron's wife removed his last name from her facebook profile following that viral video and the alleged affair which may not be alleged and our sponsor, cal, she put up a market to see if they think, if people think he will leave his role as CEO of Astronomer in July. Now I have the market up here. Originally, when I saw this, I actually thought it was going to be one of the fake markets kind of like we saw with Will Jeff Nadu be on the flight. It was a fake market. This is actually a real market. That's up right now on the main page on Cal State. At the time of recording, I pulled this screenshot. It gave it a 44% chance. It's now up to a 49% chance. Currently $172,000 of volume in this market, so it seems like a lot of people betting into this as it's coming up. We'll go to you, philip, first of all and I saw you laughing. What was your reaction to seeing this one? Did you think it would get as big as it did? 

10:43 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
No, this is incredible. I feel like this happens a lot more often than people realize. It's just like they don't get caught in this stupid manner. 

10:51
Well, they're not ceos of billion dollar companies yes and I'm actually trying to pull up cal chanel because I definitely like a side there. I think not to get fired or not to leave is definitely good. Everyone like, like, overreacts to these kinds of things. It's just a scam. At the end of the day, can the CEO print money and make money in the company. That's the only thing that matters. If he's a shitty person and cheats on his wife, that doesn't really affect the company whatsoever. She, the CPO, is probably more likely to get fired because she'll be used as like, like side damage or whatever. I don't know. 

11:26 - Joey Knish (Host)
Collateral damage. 

11:27 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Collateral damage. Thank you, thank you, collateral damage for it. So I'm shocked that they're getting this much hype against it. I kind of want to fade the market there. Interesting. This is hilarious and I don't get why people are acting like. This is such like a massive deal. This has to happen with, like politicians, a lot of powerful people all the time. It's just, it's just funny. I mean it's very funny. 

11:51 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
This is very funny. 

11:52 - Joey Knish (Host)
The thing being like if they just here's. The fact of the matter is nobody outside of you know, like their, their circle, would have any clue who these people are if they didn't blow the cover out of themselves, like if you just got on camera and just like, laughed and were into it. They never make them, or it never makes the internet. It's never anything. It's the fact that she's like like I don't know, there's some people are in their head like, oh, I'm the c, you know the c level. Nobody's gonna know who you are if you get put on the you know the kiss cam or any of that stuff there. So, yeah, she, she definitely didn't play it. Oh, and you know, I mean listen if I want to do. You know Joey Love Island theory here. Maybe she reacted, played it up a bit because she's been wanting Mr you know, mr Andy to leave his wife here, and so I think that was the final blow. I'll be interested to see if they're still together here in a few months. 

12:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, that's an interesting point, because I don't think they're going to continue. They're both married. I don't think they will be married for very long after this. Will the relationship continue? Is that allowed within the company? I don't know. She's been reported as the HR chief. I don't know if that's the exact same. 

13:05 - Joey Knish (Host)
I think that definitely reports to the CEO, as, as the official only person here that's worked in a corporate environment recently, that, yeah, I think. So that if she was just in the now, if you're the CEO, it's a rough look, no matter what when you're married, but if she wasn't reporting directly to him, it's a little bit more at least. Okay, it's still a superior. It's still a superior. But if you weren't, then I don't think you would get it. This looks like because if you're in the C-suite here and you're not her, you're like, wait a second, you know why was you know? Kristen's bonus is 600 percent of stock options and mine was 30. Well, now I know why. Or now I know why she got the you know the promotion. 

14:00 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Yeah. 

14:01 - Joey Knish (Host)
Chief talent officer over. 

14:03 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
We need to figure out, we need investigative research. And when was she promoted to a CPO? That's what we need to know. 

14:09 - Joey Knish (Host)
Send it to Jason, our only investigative resource within the company. Maybe he's not he's no Pablo Torre but maybe he'll have it, you know, by the end of the year or something. 

14:19 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, I was going to mention the same thing because we talked about the fallout. If he's going to leave his role, if she's going to leave her role, like will they quit, will they get fired? But you're right, the internal investigation that will go in, the bonuses that are played, the raises that have been involved, the time frame of all this, the internal dialogue. I think what's also interesting, this is a big company, so imagine like being an employee of astronomer and like having this like sort of suspicion and then seeing it confirmed on the world stage. This has to be one of the best days of your life, especially if you don't. I mean, look, he's a ceo. I imagine people in the company don't really like him to see this. It must be a really fun day for them. Uh, china, your thoughts on this? 

14:57 - Chinamaniac (Host)
yeah, so the the market is, will he leave in july, correct? 

15:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
yeah, so you would have to leave before august 1st 2025 this is, this is free I. 

15:06 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
This is ridiculous. 

15:07 - Chinamaniac (Host)
I'm, I'm now I was hard on the no until, like I just thought about I mean he's the ceo, like I mean there might be an investigation, maybe it carries over, but I think ultimately, like this guy's gonna be hitting the road, it's just a question of when it's gonna happen. I mean, joey corporate, I mean tell us Like something like this happens and the CEO's involved something. This public, I mean you've got to think this guy's going to get the wood laid to him here. 

15:33 - Joey Knish (Host)
I would lean actually lean with China too, that it happens, but not within the time constraints of the Cal State market. I would take the no, just because I don't think it'd be wrapped up by the end of July here, but he probably moves on at some point. Just due to how, like, if this hit the paper or something, like I hit the paper, I sound like you know, I'm like you know GRP or something. But you know, if it's just like a story came out on social media and there wasn't this video, but like, this is going to be a lasting meme forever, so the company probably moves in another direction at some point. Media and there wasn't this video, but like this is going to be a lasting meme forever, so the company probably moves in another direction at some point. I just don't think, yeah, I, I'd agree with club like within the next, you know, 13, 14 days, uh, that's, that's a quick turnaround yeah, I just bought it, put an order in for the. 

16:17 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
No, this is ridiculous in my opinion and and this is shows this is the counterparty. And on cal she I I hear about this on a podcast and I just immediately go place a bet. No further research. Who needs it? 

16:28 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That's for sure. Trust your gut, trust intuition. You should start selling these picks, man. You're giving them out for free. You could be making. Yeah, I wouldn't tell you. 

16:39 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
If you're hearing this tomorrow or Friday morning. Rather, I wouldn't tail this because information could have changed like I could be punting. I don't even know, so I wouldn't do it. 

16:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
It's a fun sweat though very fun sweat for this one, and it's only two weeks. I guess that's why the market kind of was put up as it was. It's down to once again, 44 percent. Uh, as I was trying to get a screenshot of this for the show, it took me like 10 tries to get a screenshot where the price stayed the same because it kept on moving and moving and moving, so a lot of people seemingly buying this market on the front page of Calchi, our sponsor on the show. As I said, you can sign up to Calchi using the link in the description at any point as you're listening or watching. If you're watching, though, right now you can use a QR code that is in the bottom right corner of the screen. Again, go into CalSheet. I mean a lot of liquidity in these very strange markets, as we've learned, if you can think of a market existing, like the CEO of Astronomer leaving that position, it might exist on CalSheet, with liquidity, a testament to the product that they have. 

17:42
We're going to switch gears here and go into the poker sphere for the next two topics that we have on the show. We're going to start off with the what is it? The Hustler Casino Live's Max Payne Monday stream. I think it was where we had some very familiar faces involved in a game. We have former panelists here on Circleback Fridays and Jeff Nadeau, who made it and was number one trending on Twitter when he actually got off of his commercial flight to attend the event which we talked about a little bit before. Well, I mean, we got dunked on pretty shortly after we recorded the Circleback Tuesday. We recorded on Monday shortly after Nadeau did arrive on the plane. It was the biggest story on Twitter at the time. He played in the event with the likes of C Blaise, fred Feinstein, nba green beans elf, and we have a couple of funny moments here. C Blaise was talking to do up like the entire time, also kind of gotten his nerves when he shoved his pilot chips over. Let his intrusive thoughts win. 

18:37
I don't really understand why, but had a long conversation, wouldn't itau, about his time with Barstool. The company that ran it said, was Jeff Nadeau underpaid at Barstool Sports? Blesbeth wants to hire Jeff Nadeau and pay him what he's worth. Meanwhile, jeff Nadeau makes a sick fold mid-convo. Jeff Nadeau is talking about how he was offered $85,000 to work for Barstool as a salary. He wanted $200,000, and there was a conversation about whether it was Dave Portnoy or Jeff Nadeau who was being selfish. In the end, elf posted the final results, where we saw Jeff Nadeau lose $4,000, elf profit $1,000. A lot of people dunked on Brett Feinslot and BA Greenbean for going down nearly $12,000 in the event, but it seems like you guys are pretty excited. Kanish, you are the most excited out of all of us to talk about this. What's on your mind with this event? 

19:28 - Joey Knish (Host)
Okay, first off, I know that I'm sitting with two guys that you know played poker. We even called professionally for many years. First things first. The someone knocking over your chip stack is a pretty big, like if you're at a private game. That could go badly. I disagree. 

19:48 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
No, no, no, I disagree completely. So it's funny. I was actually at a private game in Vegas and I did that to someone as a joke and it's a good way to build friendly banter with someone. I would be shocked if people took it the wrong way. As long as you know the person and Blez and Nadeau know each other, this, in my opinion, should not be taken seriously. It's a good joke. It really lightens the mood. A lot of times In a lot of these private games it's about building kind of a friendly atmosphere and I think it's pretty funny to do. I'm actually shocked that Nadeau took offense to it. I think it's a little annoying and if he continues to do it it could be problem, but it's funny in my opinion. 

20:32 - Joey Knish (Host)
And what if it happens at a WSOP event? 

20:36 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Completely different, completely different. That is like out out of line You're it's, it's more serious, but in a home game environment, which is hustle casino is a home game environment, I think it's very on brand and funny. Chad, I'm curious if you disagree with me there. 

20:51 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Yeah, yeah, wsop event, you would probably. You might even get kicked out of the tournament and have your chips removed for touching somebody's um, for touching the chips. But you know, in a situation like this I agree with fluff it's a little bit of breaking the ice and there's really, even if the person across was a maniac, there's really nothing they can do. If they act out of wine and retaliate, somehow they're just going to get kicked off the screen. So I don't know. That's just kind of where I leave it. I thought it was pretty funny, though, the uh, the reaction that nadu had there. I mean, he was just completely caught off guard and I thought it was a great move by bled. I thought it was a great move by Bles doing it too. 

21:29 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
In the end. Bles lost 8,000 on the event. Sorry, go ahead, Kanish. 

21:33 - Joey Knish (Host)
No, I was just going to say I definitely it got an audible lap out of me watching the video, but I was interested to hear your guys' takes. Usually in some games I've been at if you touch somebody's chips, you know it can be depending on who it is and get a little salty. 

21:50 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
It's. It's funny. Um, I have an experience playing one three, which is typically the lowest stakes the casino in borgata. I was playing with some, with some friends there, and someone put a five dollar chip out for their big blind and I just took five one dollar chips to change it for him. I'm trying to like speed up the game, be friendly, and he tells me don't ever touch my chips again. In a very serious, angry tone and, ironically enough, the lower stakes it is, the more serious people take it and the more offended they get, because typically the money means a lot to them. Typically they don't know what they're really doing and the higher stakes you go, the less serious it is, because most of the guys there have plenty of money to gamble with. I I've played private games where there's like ten thousand dollar pots all the time, hundred thousand dollar pots happening all the time, and they could care less because these people are all guys with lots of money that are very serious, are comfortable outside of and don't care about money being gambled. 

22:50 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Yeah, I'll tell you this too If you tried that at the 2040 game at Foxwoods 2040 limit game, there's a 50% chance you're getting punched in the face. 

22:59 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Well, that's limited. Those people are crazy as is. 

23:07 - Joey Knish (Host)
Just as far as the actual stream went. Um, it's funny. I didn't want and I am not a poker expert by any means but you know, watching a little bit of stream, I was usually like, oh the, is it sashimi? Sashimi, uh was like, oh, this girl, like this girl's gonna wait, like like she, if she could sit with these people all day and be like you know, like like never have to work all day in her life again. Like easily you could tell that like who was actually going to, you know, end up with the chips at the end of the day. She seemed like a significantly better player than who else was there. 

23:42 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Yeah, I'd be shocked to try to disagree with something here, but typically the bigger the pot is, the more likely it is that there was just a cooler and both people kind of played it okay, the hand okay. And I I'm referring to a big hand that, um, that brett feinstein played with. If it was jackie spades versus three deuce. I don't know if you guys saw that hand he fucked enough. Other guy had two pair turned a full house. I just think it was played well and a complete cooler. Nothing you can do there. 

24:10
And it was funny to me people that don't like him dunking on him for that hand. I thought that was the wrong way to dunk on him. He did a ton of things wrong during hustle and played very poorly in my opinion. But it was all in smaller pots. But the problem is and you'll see this a lot in recreational players is they only remember the big pots and they played them typically okay or even good in some cases and they think, oh, I played good, I didn't deserve to lose. But if you really sit back and reflect, you've got to look at all the smaller pots that you played where you raised with a dumb hand or you called with a dumb hand and it was a small pot. That's where your mistakes add up and compound, and that's when you can really tell if someone's good or bad. 

24:53 - Chinamaniac (Host)
John, if you were with you yeah, I tend to agree with you there that you know a lot of those small pots. They just compound over time. You know people will make big mistakes in the small blind versus the big blind button versus small blind, button versus big blind. They accumulate and generally people only remember the big pots that they lose and usually you know those are most of those play themselves and you know the smaller pots will just compound over time and that's where most people lose their money yeah, oh, go ahead, sorry, yeah. 

25:24 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
and it's important to note, for a lot of these smaller pots poker you can't use results a lot of the time in a single session and someone might say, oh, I won a lot of the smaller pots, well, that doesn't mean you played them well and I was betting on the market and I got some good prices in my opinion. A little stat about myself when I played semi-perfectionallyally for two years on sessions of eight hours in length, I only won in about 62 to 65 percent of those sessions which you might you might be thinking, oh, if you're so good and you're a professional, why shouldn't you be winning 100 of the time? No, there's a ton of variance and and you can go multiple sessions, you could go multiple months losing. So taking a single session and saying, oh, you played good or you got unlucky, and looking at a couple hands is pretty ridiculous in in my opinion. Sorry, jacob, if you want to. 

26:15 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Oh no, I was gonna kind of change topics just a little bit. I'm just kind of gonna ask a bit about like events like this. Do you like seeing more like personalities playing in these sorts of poker events like, what do you guys make of this, as people who tend to watch poker a lot? 

26:31 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Well, I'm scared to comment because a certain panel member here said that watching streams is the biggest time suck for sports betting. So I'm a little scared to give my opinion there. That's true, what do you? 

26:41 - Chinamaniac (Host)
think Shia. Yeah, I just don't watch them and if I did, I would want to see personalities more than even high-level poker play, just for the entertainment factor. I like the table banter, I like the way it was when poker first boomed in the early 2000s, the mid-2000s, the characters, what made the show. And you know by now for people that do watch these shows over and over and over, you're just seeing the same stuff for the most part, unless you have some fish in there that are just bombing pots left and right. So I don't know, I just I don't watch a lot of these streams and I just feel they're a big time suck. 

27:18 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
You know you did mention actually I will use your tweet on the Tuesday show where you talked about William Kasuf and you thought it was an egregious decision paraphrasing but you thought it was an egregious decision from the World Series of Poker to ban him for the rest of the year. So you're more you like the personality. You're not quite in it for the very good, necessarily poker player, but you're more in it for the personalities that develop on these sorts of things. 

27:39 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Sure, but there's one thing that I didn't know. All I was watching was the clips, and then somebody told me if you had watched the actual streams and saw how much this guy was dragging the action down, then you know it might be a different story. So you know, maybe I changed my tune a little bit there, but I guess there is a line that has to be drawn and that's where, you know, the tournament directors come in. So if they were dealing with that for days and or levels and levels and levels, and he wasn't letting up, then I guess he probably did ultimately get what he deserved. 

28:12 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
I'm excited that you said something. I wanted to bring this up at one point and I think that's what most people are missing. People that don't play poker are saying, oh, I wouldn't be bothered by the table talk. Or even people that did play poker are saying I wouldn't be bothered by the table talk. And that's not the problem. Table lock isn't the problem. It's when he gets dealt like nine three off under the gun pre-flop and takes 35 seconds, 45 seconds to fold and is blabbering on. Everyone else has got to. They need to play as many hands as possible to accumulate chips and they don't want to see him sitting there taking and that's what made it annoying and that's what caused the whole problems and that's why everyone's kept calling the clock on him and that's what put eventually put the 10 second runoff on him or the time timer on him. So I thought the wsap got a little too far, but it's cool to see that he's banned. 

28:56 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I think he deserved to be banned before we move on from this topic, because because we talked about jeff to do, we cannot move forward without me asking you guys about all the content surrounding jeff nadu on a commercial flight flop. I'll start with you. Did you like the content? Some people thought it was really stupid. I was pretty locked into it. Um, I I, thankfully we had the stream open. We were in office on monday. We had the stream open when he actually arrived, uh, from his flight. So what did you make of it? Flop. 

29:29 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Extremely well done by Nadeau. This was his best work. I mean, I thought at one point maybe he is on the no-fly list. I also thought maybe he's scared of flying. This was extremely well done. He got to number two, or number even one on trending on Twitter. 

29:44 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, he was number one at one point. 

29:54 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
It doesn't even matter if he actually is scared of flying. He played it off so well. This is a master class in content. How can you hate on this? It doesn't matter if you think it was cringe. Extremely well done. He got all of barcelona involved. 10 out of 10. 

30:01 - Joey Knish (Host)
Brilliant work, brilliant yeah, I, I mean I was captivated like, absolutely captivated, like a like that scene in the barstool office where they're sitting around the. I mean I was captivated, like, absolutely captivated, like a like that scene in the barstool office where they're sitting around the. I mean that was like me and like some of our group chats here and just like I actually like clicked on the, uh, got onto the yak stream, uh, as they were watching him come off the plane. Um, it's just phenomenal. I agree, that's the, that is his mona lisa, the. The nadoo peak here. Um, hopefully the fucking guy learns to parlays it into something here where I don't know. I'd like to see him return to barstool or something like I know nadoo's always uh, switching it up, but I, I do think he would be. Uh, this would be a good time to strike while the iron's hot, and for you, china, this might be one of those. 

30:49
China probably doesn't know who they do with. He's like. I've never seen a they do flip in my life. 

30:55 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I was going to say this is maybe one of the time sucks you mentioned before. 

30:59 - Chinamaniac (Host)
No, I thought I actually. I agree with Flop. This was extremely well played, 10 out of 10. I've kind of been following the fly, no fly, how it originated, you know, and I was thinking the same stuff. Maybe he's afraid of flying, he doesn't, he doesn't fly. But the best part of the whole thing is his flight was delayed 20 hours on the um on the on the way back today. 

31:20 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I don't know if you guys got that yeah, I mean I said a lot on the on the tuesday show. I come off like an ass, because obviously he did end up flying. I was just like I didn't believe there was any issue with him flying. But when he was at the airport and then didn't get on a flight, that's when I was like, okay, well, now it's starting to get a little bit. 

31:42 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
If you hear this, please don't tell if that was intentional or not. Let that be a mystery. Yes, I don't want to know, I just I have in my mind. 

31:51 - Joey Knish (Host)
Some some like anonymous name do troll called, got his information. Yeah, because that's the thing, is his name. The guy talked about his birthday eight hours a day for the entire. You have his birthday, you have what airport he's flying out of. Because he's doing a stream. Like if you just called and had all that information was like, oh, I forgot my confirmation, you have his birth date. You have what airport he's flying out of. Because he's doing a stream. Like if you just called and had all that information, it was like, oh, I forgot my confirmation number and canceled it. I just want to believe that's what happened forever. 

32:17 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That's what he claims happened. That's what other people have claimed happened is somebody got a hold of the airport and was able to get the flight canceled, which is pretty crazy. Some people thought that was like just insane behavior. Some people thought it was funny. I guess it's a little bit of both. It is completely insane and I would not recommend it at all, but also I did find it a little bit funny. Do we agree on that? 

32:39 - Joey Knish (Host)
Yes, I mean, normally you wouldn't have that on a random person, you wouldn't have that much information. 

32:45 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, but you do Don't post a screenshot of your id. 

32:50 - Joey Knish (Host)
two weeks ago. Here's her name. 

32:51 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
But, like like every year, I think you'd have enough for some customer service agent to be like okay, yep, sir, flights canceled yeah, in a position of the do don't post a photo of your id, leak your birth date, talk about what time your flight is, what airport you're flying out of. I guess that would have been maybe the smarter way to go about it. But happy he was able to prove that yes, he is able to fly. But we're going to stick now into the poker world. Get a little bit more serious with the poker in this one, because we're talking about the winner of the World Series of Poker main event and newest Poker Hall of Fame member, michael Mizraki, aka AtTheGrinder main event and newest poker hall of fame member, michael mizrocki, aka at the grinder 44. Michael wins the beautiful bracelet from at jostens whatever that is in the 10 million dollar top prize. Congrats grinder. That's from the world series of poker. 

33:38
Quite a few people were singing his praises. Here we have tim uh fior vanti, who said michael mizrocki won his last 10 all in and calls on his way to victory. Nine of them were pre-flop all-ins To go nine for nine. In those hands, mizraki's chances were around 0.275% one in 364. Aggression plus experience plus luck equals unstoppable. Jonathan Hales said the Grinder played 12 events this summer, cast all 12, and won the two most prestigious braces in the game. D may win the points race, but there should be an asterisk beside his player of the year because Mizraki summer is the best in world series of poker history. Finally, phil Helmuth said Michael Mizraki goes straight into the poker hall of fame. No wait, no fuss, no must, as all 33 hall of famers agreed unanimously. Never happened in the history of poker that someone went in like this. But then no one has ever pulled off a feet quite like this. 

34:35
One. Grinder won the world series of poker main event and the players championship this year, his fourth players championship. Folks, folks, he won the two most prestigious events at the world series of poker. By the way, the main event had over 9600 players. All right, china, we'll go to you to lead off on this one. I'm going to defer on this topic because I don't know anything. But, uh, what you want, you're interested in talking about this. What about this? Has you kind of captivated? 

34:58 - Chinamaniac (Host)
I mean it's just, it's amazing. 

35:00
I mean, to win four of those poker player championships is insane. 

35:04
And if you polled the people that play in that 50k poker players championship, a lot of them would probably rather win that than win the main event, just because of the prestige and who you're playing against, all the top competition you're up against and, um, I've seen a lot of people kind of bashing ms rocky a little bit, I mean for his style of play and he's not playing like you know all these wizards play now and he just got lucky in this and that and while some of that may be true, there's a lot that goes into the style of play that he plays. 

35:37
He's not going to. I think he cashed in 12 of 12 events. But I know there's guys that I used to state that play a similar style to this and it's boom or bust and if they get that chip stack, you know if they, they can get really lucky, maybe deep a few different spots, people are going to give them action and then, before you know it, you're sweeping a tournament with a shitload of people in it. So I don't know. I think it's an amazing accomplishment. 

36:01 - Joey Knish (Host)
I don't think anybody will ever do this again and you let let me tee this up for you, flo, and respond. Shaina, he doesn't play, as you said, like what you would call how a lot of guys play, like the perfect math style, the solved poker style or the style that you're going to play, the EV math strategy, 100% of the time, every time. Do you think that, in the results we've seen, gives him what I'll call, you know almost a a bit of an advantage because he's playing a style that's so hard to either predict or play against, or the hyper aggressiveness or the, the lack of be able to predict what he's going to have? I guess I would say, what do you think made this run for him? That's more than you know. If you win one World Series of Poker event, you obviously need some type of sun run in that, but to have the prolonged, you know this year, the tournament success he's had, I guess, tell me why he's this level of player in tournament poker. 

37:09 - Chinamaniac (Host)
I think a lot of it is. It's it's kind of like an outlier scenario. He's just he's he has to be running good in certain spots to get to get chips and just outrun people. He might, you know, like I think he was down to two big blinds late in the tournament here I mean, and it's the same in in, in the PPC I mean, and it's the same in the PPC Again. I haven't watched a lot of these live streams but I'm guessing he's giving a lot of action and he's probably gambling a lot when he's an underdog PLO, no limit and he just gains chips and people are going to give him action. And I just think it's kind of. You know, he may play great in certain spots but you know a lot of it is how you run when. 

37:51 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
But a hand that sticks out to me is when he got an all-in. I think it was one of, if not the biggest pot he got Kings versus Ace-King versus Wozniak, who ended up getting second, and it was a 140 million chip pot and Wozniak had three back to 10 million chips and Mizraki made it 30 million off of the 70 million stack. And that was a very big mistake there with Ace King because it doesn't give him a chance to fold If Wozniak goes all in. He's now priced in and has to call, and a solver GTO style would have made it like $20 to $25 million chips and that would have given him the ability to fold when Wozniak went all in, but because he was priced in and called, he ended up doubling up and winning it there. So you saw, bad play combined with good luck equal a big victory here. 

38:47
So I think this is more of a sun run I I it sounded like Sean. I thought there was a lot some more skill there and he certainly is good at capitalizing against weaker opponents. But when you're making it in deeper tournaments and you're playing with a lot of the good field that was left like Kenny Hallert was very good, adam Hendricks was good in the final table. Even Leo Margers was quite good as well. He's just not winning in these spots and needs a lot of run good to survive Early on in tournaments. When it's a lot of fish, I certainly agree he can run people over. 

39:21 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Of course that's the skill part that I'm talking about. I'm not talking about how he plays. In the later stages of the tournament it was clear that he wasn't playing optimally and it took a lot of run good to win it. But you can get stacks playing against fish early in tournaments, playing like a hyper aggressive seeing a lot of flops they think you're crazy. You make some hands and before you know it you have a shitload of chip. So it's a boom or bust strategy. But I think for a guy who's playing like a non-quote gto optimal you know wizard type strategy that you know that's. That's a fine strategy to have if you're trying to actually win the tournament and not just min cash like someone like Alan Kessler does every tournament. 

40:08 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
All right, we'll get back to circle back in about 30 seconds and we'll be reading your comments when we get there. Don't go anywhere. Hey everyone, jacob Grimenia here, lead producer at the hammer and your host of Circle Back. Do you want to know the best way to support what we're building here? Check out our sponsors. Seriously, we are selective with who we work with. We only want to team up with brands who offer actual value to bettors. We're not shilling junk. No miracle picks and no knee brace endorsements just yet. 

40:35
If you enjoy the show and want to help us keep growing, then check out the links that are in the description and see what we've got lined up for you. Every visit helps, especially when I have to upgrade Kanisha's mic set up for the 10th time this month. I'll put it, I'll put it. I'll put it that way. First comment of the day comes from Jimmy Underwood. 13 says I'm buying a pick and if the pick has juice, I just add the dollar for the pick plus the juice I'm paying. No thanks, too much. Free information can do it myself. Uh, child, you've always been on this stance. You're kind of goes back to the first topic that we had on the show today, but there's just so many other ways to profit. You don't need to buy anything right. 

41:11 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Oh yeah, you, you, you don't need to buy anything, and if you do buy things, you're going to have to avoid so many landmines before you find the right things to buy. So I just believe that in the long run, the correct strategy is just network, network, network, and just let other people do the work for you, and all you have to do is attain accounts and you can just run it up. 

41:34 - Joey Knish (Host)
There you go you know I I'll give this is. He probably won't even remember it, but pazola had a quote it's a while ago now, uh, I don't even remember what it was on that you'll see so many people who buy picks that get. It gives you like an outlet to be like angry when the picks don't win or to blame somebody. His quote was something along the lines of like you will take so much more enjoyment in betting and gambling, even if you're losing of like you put your own work in and imagine it leads to winning. Then that's when, like, you really feel. You know, like the, the satisfaction as opposed to buying somebody else's, where, if you're not going to do it like china said and do it on up, you know, like the, the satisfaction as opposed to buying somebody else's, where, if you're not going to do it like china said and do it on up, you know a more. You know professional level of the account. 

42:21
I think you're you're just better off betting your own opinion and taking your own like stock of it. And if you want to put the work in to try and do it and you know, plus ev manner, a good manner, then there you go. If not, still, uh it's. There's no saltier person on earth than the customer who buys picks. And you go to a RAS chat or a Discord or something, and that's a service that had won over the long term. You talk to anybody that's sold. There's no more scorned person on earth than the uh, the person who's lost for a few weeks buying picks. So, uh, yeah, I just, I agree, I don't, don't, don't do it for yourself, what about you flip? 

43:04 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
uh, I have nothing to add. 

43:06 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
They nailed it all right, let's go to our next comment here, which comes from not a, not underscore, a underscore rapper, underscore bets. Kanish makes a great point on the Dina Titus and or other co-sponsors appearances at bet bash. Easy, quick appearance. Get quick standing ovation. Basically seal any Nevada gamblers. Vote for the rest of your time in office, all for 10 minutes of work and a quick speech written by some summer intern. Crazy house and politicians pass up easy campaigning whereas others seem to have experts running their campaigns. Get Kanish in Titus's office and she'll probably advance even further than governor Kanish. You brought this point up. You're getting your praises here. You want to elaborate a little bit more on your idea. Dina Titus, by the way, if anybody doesn't know, is the representative of nevada who is pushing hard for the fair bet act which we've talked a lot about, which helps out gambling. We talked a lot about on the show, on these shows recently. 

44:05 - Joey Knish (Host)
For anybody who hasn't tuned into those kadesh, you go ahead with more on this one yeah, I mean, my guess is some intern as and I appreciate the, the kudos there, um, but like some intern in her, you know that's doing her schedule or her chief of staff or whatever her assistant is like. I don't know what the hell Bet Bash is. You know what I'm saying. I'm not going to send her here and so you know like, hey, we'll send a video or something. But if you really knew what you would, the probation you would receive when you'd get in there. You hire, you know, a quick social team to come in there and take a, like you said, it's not like she's got to be there the whole time and you know be listening to Zilbo and GRP talk about. You know NFL betting. 

44:41
You show up for she's in Nevada. You make a. You know I'll show up for an hour, stop in. You know glad hands spanky Derek Stevens, everybody's cheering People are. You know you get a little of that and then you play that video on your site for you know how you stood up for the little guy you stood up for. You know the poker players and gamblers all across the country, you know. So, hey, I, yeah, and you know what. Hey, dina, you watch out. Maybe I'm coming for that office one day, you know, with ideas like this, hey, I. You know. With ideas like this, hey, you know, you never know. Baby Joey, congressman, will you know I might take it to the White House. 

45:20 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Well, maybe they're looking for a summer intern. 

45:23 - Joey Knish (Host)
You can find a place. Hey, you got to start somewhere, baby. 

45:27 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Of course, the last one that we have here coming at me directly, we have BlueYays2312. Says who was going to tell Jacob that the Sens did play a game on Parliament Hill a couple of years ago? So there was the market I pulled up about. Will the UFC host a fight at the White House by the end of the US's 250th anniversary, July 4th 2026. And I likened a UFC event at the White House to a hockey game played at the Parliament in Canada, which apparently has already happened, and since we talked about it, there has been more discussion surrounding the possibility of the UFC event happening at the White House. China. We didn't get your thoughts on this because you weren't on the show last week. Do you think that this is something that's actually going to happen? Do you think it's feasible for a UFC event to take place on White House grounds? 

46:21 - Joey Knish (Host)
We all know Trump does a lot of stuff. 

46:22 - Chinamaniac (Host)
That doesn't happen. So I know. So, uh, you know, tell us why this is different. No, this is gonna happen. 100 like it's out there. Trump's a big ufc guy there. There is gonna be a fight on the front lawn and it's gonna be it's probably gonna be john jones and tom espinal. I mean, it's it. That's just the way that jones announced he's coming out of retirement just for this fight. They will get this. They will at least get this fight set up to go down there real quick. 

46:46 - Joey Knish (Host)
Well, the parliament hill I don't even remember that the senators played a game like also parliament hill, doesn't really it doesn't have I will admit it doesn't have the same grand feeling as the White House does. 

47:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
No, I don't remember that at all though I was actually going to just quickly check here because I don't recall this either but apparently there was a winter classic that occurred in 2017 for the ottawa senators. Yeah, right in front, right in front of the parliament, like literally right in front. So, yeah, I guess, if, uh, I guess if canada can do it, then I guess so can america. And if somebody wants to make, I mean donald trump is going to push to make this happen with his involvement with the usc and his liking for the us. So, hey, another market. I won't put words into China's mouth, but he says 100%, it's happening. Kalashie has it right now at 70%. So if I had played it last week, I would have been on a poor position when it was at 63%. You let us know again in the comments down below if you think this is something that is going to actually happen. We're going to switch gears. 

47:53
Now we're going to go into the sharp football preview that Jared Lee Jared Smith bets posted. Jared Smith does NFL content and betting content in general. He's featured on the show multiple times. In the past he posted the at sharp football preview. This is by Warren sharp arrived today. Blown away by the depth Literally, it's thicker than my mouse and he shows a photo of the preview next to his mouse by his computer. Jokes aside, nobody does a better job than Warren compiling the info required to get me ready for the NFL season. Strongly recommend you purchase a copy. Okay, kanish, let's start with you, let's firecracker out the gate. What are your thoughts on Warren Sharp and purchasing a preview like this? 

48:39 - Joey Knish (Host)
Nobody, nobody does a better job at making people think he knows what he's talking about than Warren Sharp. He is the king of the, you know, and it's like I still think he this isn't to take it, it as like I don't think he's a smart guy. It feels like in some aspects, especially in the past, he could have won betting NFL, but it's been this big ruse for a long time that that he's putting on and that's worked very well for him. That he's got got him a job at the ringer and all that well for him. That he's got got him a job at the ringer and all that. 

49:20
Um, listen, if you just want a bunch of football data, um, I like the nfl football data maybe you want to buy the sharp football preview, but I don't see there's to me there's not a lot like. There's so much nfl information out there. It's great that his team puts a bunch of it, you know, into one spot. I don't know if this is like for me am I buying the Warren sharp preview, you know, and loading it up? No, but if you're into that, you know, I guess they okay. If you're a, you know, I don't know, Okay, Semi, you know an NFL fan. Maybe he gives you a. You know that preview gives you a lot. It's, I'm sure it has a bunch of information in it. Do I think that information is going to like tangibly help you like win betting? 

50:04 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
or in some instances. No, sorry, all the comments there from Joey Kanish are of his opinion and aren't necessarily statements of fact. I I will. 

50:13 - Joey Knish (Host)
Listen, I, I say a lot of stuff that's, uh, you know, out of pocket. So uh, don't, uh, you know, don't, take that to the bank uh, flop. 

50:20 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
What's your thoughts on a preview like this? 

50:23 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
I think joey kind of nailed it there if you're casual and you're not betting, probably good. You know, maybe make a purchase could be good to get a preview, get um a basic understanding of teams. If you actually want to earn betting, probably better ways. 

50:38 - Joey Knish (Host)
And I've given Jared. I gave Jared credit for his you know his home run derby pitcher thread on Hit the Books this week. So I know Kirk has filleted him a few times, but don't be coming, jared. Don't be coming for us this time, because this is a Warren Shop troll, not a youth troll. I'm glad you enjoyed the preview. 

50:58 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
China. Do you think there's value in getting a preview like this ahead of the NFL season? 

51:03 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Probably as much value as buying a fantasy football book in April to see how your guys are going to do in the fall. Unless you like reading about odd facts and this and that and all kinds of crap that probably isn't going to help you. You know, win money in the long run, then by all means go for it. But, um, hopefully here. I know that. Uh, smith has mentioned in the past that fezik was uh like a great father figure type guy. Maybe you know we can have sharp as the second guy here and now he has the dynamic duo. 

51:38 - Joey Knish (Host)
So there you go I didn't know he's made that uh, that that uh characterization about fez before, but uh, god love him. 

51:45
Um, I will say, you know in it to compare it to college football. 

51:49
I know people and I've taken a few shots of the phil still magazine, you know, over the last he's kind of you know mailed all of my opinion, mailed it in over the last five to seven years. But there's some college football mags that I know people still like and find value in, the difference being there's so much roster turnover and I call it new information year to year on a college football level, whereas the nfl doesn't have that much significance from, uh, you know your key players or any of that. I don't think that offseason magazine, that that change, is going to give you as much of a benefit or any type of EV as a college football magazine might have or at least did in the past. And there's just, I don't know, there's so many different ways now in the end, um, and there's just, I don't know there's so many different ways now in the end like to gain information on previews and stuff. The, the preview mag, seems to me just like kind of a dated concept I'm looking at the photo here what? 

52:48 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
look at the sides of this thing. What could possibly be in this book like? What could possibly fill up all of these pages? There's just no way. I find it hard to believe that there would be many things like this, many things of significance that you would need to know ahead of the NFL season. 

53:04 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Go ahead, I think, what you can do is like I haven't read it or know anything about it. But if you think every single player, you have the information on every single player, like maybe all their stats, their college stats for every single player, for every single team, that could add up to quite a bit of players. We're talking about 1,500 players at this point, or more, so that could make a big book. 

53:28 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I guess it could make a big book. I guess you know what I'd have to purchase the book to find out. I would personally find it a bit hard to believe that this would enhance my ability to bet on the NFL, but maybe there is value out there for some people. 

53:43 - Joey Knish (Host)
Maybe Jared will let you borrow his copy. 

53:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, bring it to Bet Bash and I'll have a little skim through and see what I think, maybe before I purchase. We'll go to our next topic here Into the golf space. We have the open championship going on, uh, this weekend, but we have a different tournament, which the name is escaping me right now. It's like the the barracuda, something, okay, the, uh, the barracuda championship, which was set to feature a very well-known golf YouTuber in Grant Horvat at Grant Horvat golf. He has 1.4 million subscribers on YouTube. He was supposed to be playing in this event as like a celebrity guest, I suppose, but that he had this to say after he pulled out of the event. He says unfortunately I will not be playing in a PGA tour event. The rules and regulations around the PGA tour tournament play will not allow us to film. The only reason I was in the position to receive an invitation like this is because of YouTube and you all watching the video. So if I'm going to play, we want to film it. I am hopeful that this won't always be the case. I would be honored to play in a PGA Tour event and bring you all along in the future. Huge thank you to the Barracuda for the invite and belief in YouTube golf. 

55:00
There was divided opinions on this, george Savarikas, I hope I said that correctly. It says to actually think you could use your own film crew during a PGA tour event is absolutely mind blowing. Jake naps, lifting coach at talk birdie to me, says the pga tour are idiots. And grant horvath is a bigger idiot. I get tv rights but they can let. They can't let one camera follow him. Does network even care? It draws eyes to the event. And the network grant is a bigger idiot because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity and he's going to pass on that because of clout. How could nobody find a solution to this? Get everyone in a room and make it work. 

55:37
People didn't like it, but we have some people who did like it and supported this. We have hayley ray ostrom at hayley ostrom, who does golf content, is also a professional golfer, says people forget that professional golf isn't grant's dream. He wants to be a youtuber and has become a great one. The point of playing for him would be to film and share the experience with his audience. If he can't, then why take the spot from someone else if he doesn't want it? And we have mckenna white, who also does sports content in general, says I think it's really cool and mature that a 26 year old grand horror bat realizes his youtube channel and subscribers got him where he is today. It's even cooler that he declined a cool opportunity because he wasn't able to share it on the platform that got him where he is today. Leave the poor kid alone. You don't need to understand and agree with everyone's choices. You're all being bullies. Akran Horvat Golf All right, flop your thoughts on this. Bad move. Good move from Horvat. What do you think? 

56:31 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
What I don't understand is couldn't he get film footage from PGA after and put that on YouTube? That's what I'm missing here. If he can do that, I don't see a problem. 

56:42 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
He probably does a lot of up-close personal content in the way that Bryson DeChambeau does. I'm not a big golf YouTuber watch I mean, I don't watch any YouTube golf but that sort of content, I guess, is what he's looking for. 

56:55 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
So I saw some ulterior theories that I think might be true here, that he doesn't want to get exposed in terms of everyone thinks they're a good golfer and then you go against the pros and you realize you're not a good golfer and I'm not. I've seen a couple of his videos before. He strikes me as quite good, probably the top 0.1%. The problem is the people playing at the PGA even the ones playing at Barracuda that aren't good enough to play on the open are still like top 0.001% and would cook him, and it might not be fun to be dead last, eight strokes behind, second to last going into the PGA Tour, and maybe that loses them credibility. 

57:40
I don't know and we'll never know if that's the true reason, but that's a theory that I believe. It reminds me of the Brian Scalabrini challenge, where he goes and plays these random D1 basketballers or these YouTube basketballers that think they're so good and Brian Scalabrini, who's a scrub in the NBA, comes in and cooks them and it's like, yeah, grant's good when he, when he's not on the pga tour, but when he's playing against real pros, he's probably not good anymore I'm closer to lebron than you are to me exactly, uh, that's. 

58:10 - Joey Knish (Host)
I will say this seems from a business standpoint, like are you? What kind of fucking idiot? Like, okay, even if you can't film it, have your crew film you walking in, have them film you on the driving range, have them filling you afterwards doing it. How was it like? Do it like you can still have your crew there just because you can't film on the course, which I don't blame the pga for not letting him have his own film crew on the course, not only for tv rights rights, but like just for a number like you can't bring outside of your caddy. It's like you can't have your, you know. It's like you can't have your coach around yelling you instruction out there. Same with the film crew. So I don't blame them at all for not letting him do this. It just seems like a ridiculous missed opportunity where, even if you finished last or something, something you can parlay that into more content. 

58:56
Uh, I don't understand this decision in any capacity and the whole. Like, okay, those two, I don't know, I I don't know either of the two girls you brought up there, but like that it's so cool that he's uh, you know he's doing this for the people get the fuck out of here. He's not doing this for, like, there's obviously some business strategy that's probably stupid. He's not doing it because, like, oh, you know, I can't bring you guys with me to the course. So, uh, you know, I just, I just can't, you know, I don't have the heart to do it, give me up, he can't, he can't monetize it anymore. 

59:27
I I would say, that's right, right um, and just like, how are you passing up? Like if your golf is your livelihood, like you going to pass up an opportunity just to play and maybe hey, I don't know. 

59:37
Maybe the guy plays great, maybe he's in contention, maybe he makes the weekend or something. So, yeah, just like. Do you have? Do you have a competitive hype? Like any type of like? It's something in your soul that like wants to like, if you got an opportunity you know what I'm saying Like, if I I don't play I don't Joey K doesn't play basketball anymore, but at one point I you know, in the old days you don't play hoops Like, if you got a chance to like, think about, like, play in an NBA, in an NBA, even if you think you're going to get smoked, you wouldn't want to just experience that. I don't know, I'm out on this guy. 

01:00:14 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Do you not buy the theory that if you're watching Grant you might think he's a good golfer and then if you see him get absolutely cooked, maybe you don't want to tune into him anymore because you realize? 

01:00:23 - Joey Knish (Host)
Do I have the? I don't know, maybe some people have that. I wouldn't watch the YouTube golfer and be like, oh, this guy looks like Tiger Woods. I think he'd be better than him if he played on the tour. 

01:00:35 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
It's just. The tour went back. I would think you wouldn't stop enjoying the content because all of a sudden like oh, this guy was a fraud the whole time. He's actually not good at golf. I'm not going to subscribe to his channel anymore. 

01:00:54 - Chinamaniac (Host)
China. We haven't gotten your thoughts on this, so let's, let's hear him. Yeah, I'm with kanish here. I think this guy, I mean when I first read this tweet, the first thing I said was this guy's a big time fucking loser. I mean, why would you not, why would you not film content three days before, two days before the day? 

01:01:02
leading up going, going to sleep the night before the driving range, etc. Uh, and like kanish, like if I was invited to an NBA even celebrity all-star game because I was you know some type of content creator, of course you're going to go do it and they're not going to let you bring your fucking camera out onto the court so you can film in in whatever you, and they would probably let you use the clips later. And even if they didn't, you're, even if you did go out there and you did suck you're not going to lose people. You're probably going to gain followers from that. You might get some haters, but that increases your following sometimes. 

01:01:38 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
You can't do this at any PGA event. I don't know any sport that would allow this. You can't do this in the MLB, nhl, nba. You can't do this in the Premier League. Like there was a goalie who used to play the premier league named ben foster who did content when his team was in the second division. He had a gopro and net that he did content with, but when he got his team got promoted to the premier league, that was done. That was no longer happening and it's not like he's going to leave that role to go play in the league to be able to do that like. So I don't understand. Here I flip. 

01:02:06
You actually brought up a really good point there. Like maybe it was something about not getting exposed because, as far as, like, building his youtube channel, like like china can just said content before in the build-up, even if he does poorly, you can spin that into content as well and kind of, you know, make fun of yourself. I think that's content as well. The amount of people who will see you in this event and might go to your youtube channel as a result like your script is only bound to increase by like. The commentators are surely going to be talking a lot about this. His clips are going to be all over Twitter because this is such a well-known player playing in this that there's going to be clips Grant Horvat, birdies the ninth or whatever and that makes it to Twitter. That makes its rounds. So maybe it is something along the lines of he didn't want to expose himself as not being as good. I don't know. 

01:02:50 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
Honestly, kanish and Chet have kind of convinced me that even if he was probably eight or ten strokes under second to last which I imagine he probably would be you can still spin that in a positive light. But maybe it's kind of like a fear of failure internally. He can always say that like if something had happened earlier he could have been on the pga tour. But now that you have a chance, it's too real what happens if he goes and chokes and just gets loses by 20 strokes. Sure it doesn't kill his content or whatever. I think they've convinced me of that. But now he doesn't ever get to say that like, oh, I could have made it on the pga tour. No, you never were going to make it on the pga unless his shtick was like which I don't know. 

01:03:34 - Joey Knish (Host)
I don't even know who this guy was. 

01:03:35 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I've never, that's. That's part of the issue. 

01:03:36 - Joey Knish (Host)
No, I wasn't familiar yeah, unless it was like I can turn you into a pga god, like if you watch my content, I don't know, I don't. 

01:03:44 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
I don't think that's what it is, I don't think it is either. 

01:03:46 - Joey Knish (Host)
But like same thing of like. You know, almost like a, you know a big towel. If you follow me, you can be a winner of like. If you watch my channel, I can, you know, improve your game. You can get to a certain level, maybe, then and be like oh wait, this guy suck. He doesn't even belong on the tour. But I don't think that's it either. So I I don't, I don't see any rational reason for this, and it seems like he's also getting cooked by most people, like the response to this of him bailing on it has been like you're an idiot more so than a couple of girls that are like oh, you know, they're bullying him. 

01:04:16 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Here's the other thing he's never going to get invited back. So for turning them down and doing this, I mean, if golf is your thing and something like this comes up in the future, he's not getting invited, you know. So there you go. 

01:04:29 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Perhaps burned his one chance. Last tweet on this one MastersBurner at A-N-G-C underscore Burner says he has the photo of the I forget the exact name of the painting, but it's like freedom of speech or something. The man defiantly standing in the crowd and says I don't give a fuck about YouTube golf and maybe you watching feel the same. It says I don't give a fuck about YouTube golf and maybe you watching feel the same, but hey, a lot of people do like it, including CEO of the Hammer, rob Pizzola. I wonder if he has something to say on this one. No-transcript. 

01:05:12
This was hashtag circle, backed by Sean at sell yacht six. Thank you so much for using hashtag circle back as a reminder. If you want us to see some content potentially feature in any of the episodes we do, you can always reply to it on Twitter with the hashtag circle back, just like this person here. So the tweet says perspective cashing out below face value when it can upgrade your EV is underrated. One freeze funds when you can't or won't redeposit in parentheses, timing, balance, et cetera. Two roll funds into higher EV spots. Three, the cash out can look suboptimal to the book and help that account last longer. We haven't lit off with you a ton China, but I would like to know if you want to lead off here and kind of talk, would you ever consider doing something like this? Have you ever employed strategies like this? 

01:05:56 - Chinamaniac (Host)
I'll tell you a story at the end of this. But like, like somebody that's not going to read deposit isn't going to know what a high EV spot is anyway. So like I don't know. About number two, but yeah, I just I don't think a sports book is going to look at you as a. I mean, maybe they do, but I don't think they're going to look at that and just mark you as a fish and give you like an endless leash to just butcher them over and over. But I will give you a cash-out story. 

01:06:26
I had this big bet on a baseball game about. This is the only time I've ever done a cash out too. I think this is about five years ago. I had 15K on the Orioles on like a plus 300. They were up six runs going into the ninth inning and they wound up. They were up six, they gave up like 10 runs and somehow I got an even cash out and couldn't hit that button so fast. So that's, that's the only time I've ever used that cash out button. So there you go and I rolled that into some plus ev stuff. But for the average better, they're not going to know what to what a plus ev spot is anyway. So I don't know, I I think I I don't really agree with any of this I I completely disagree with with trying to hear. 

01:07:10 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
I actually really liked what her it said here. I've had this spot come up multiple times. Um, there can be a spot where you have a new account and you can't get funds into it. It might take it 24 hours, 48 hours, to get funds into it. Okay, it's not really like. You are like low bankroll and you have all your fun side. You just you need to moving money around. 

01:07:32
Takes a while and say you have a tennis match early in the day and it gets suspended, say for 24 hours. It's the next day you might have five or six NBA games that you want to get action down on that. That one bet is tying up some of your funds and if you cash out at like a minus three percent or or whatever you can roll that into and you're gonna actually it's actually going to be a plus cv cash out because you're going to be able to parlay that volume that you wouldn't have got that you're now getting and making more plus cv spots, etc, etc. Additionally, I I do think that the books look at at cashing out as kind of efficient and I think China is right. They're not going to give you an unlimited leash here. But what they are going to do is say, like you're making suboptimal decisions, you're more likely to be a recreational and if they have profile reports on, like what your expected ROI is, that's going to only decrease it. 

01:08:26
And if you're betting properly, other bets should be cloaked and not being seen as winning bets in the future. So it's just going to help your account survival. Even a little bit China's right. It's not going to make a massive difference here. And finally, there could even be spots where it's a small cash out that the book might appear as negative but it's actually positive expected value where, like if one book is so far off market and you can't arbitrage it in any other site or anything like that, the cashout might be really good if the whole market is much lower. So there can be multiple reasons why to make a quote unquote negative cashout and I think they can be used. It doesn't come up quite often for me, but it has come up multiple times. 

01:09:12 - Joey Knish (Host)
Yeah, I would say I'm more on the China camp of just. I haven't used it particularly like in the manners that Harood's speaking to. In most cases I'll give you like a scenario where you know if I got chargers, you know plus three, and then Justin Herbert's ruled out, and I'm like I'm on the screen or I'm in the account and I can boom, cash it out, even though I'm cashing it out at a small loss on the position I have then re-up at if I still think you know it moves. So you know, plus seven, plus seven and a half with the backup, I still think that's about. Then maybe I'll re-up the bet right there. 

01:09:45
Um, I just don't. I don't have a lot of scenarios outside of that, or like a player future or something where if a guy gets injured you try and cash it out before he gets pulled. Those are the only scenarios where I can have done any type of cashing out in the Theroux scenario and I get Fluff's. You know, theoretically it is possible. Um it just I don't think that's what I'll say would work for most people and I don't think from a like an account standpoint it it would give you a too much additional longevity either all right. 

01:10:26 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Now is the time for us to move to the chopping block on today's show. This is a content that doesn't quite warrant full scale segments we still wanted to discuss anyways. If you're enjoying, by the way, so far, please make sure you do hit that like button. Make sure as well you're subscribed to the channel. Help pump us up to 20,000 subs and keep seeing more Circleback content and more content coming soon on the channel. First up we have Jeff Feininberg, who posted the behind the scenes footage of him and grp wins. Yes, we had takes by jay jason cooper, who is, uh, our host and producer on the for progress channel for nfl content here at the hammer also appears on this show quite regularly as well. Jeff feinberg always on the tuesday circle back. They went down to chicago to visit grp wins and a little bit of taste of what is potentially behind the scenes there. I just wanted to bring that up. You guys have anything Kanish you excited for this content to come out. 

01:11:19 - Joey Knish (Host)
I'm excited. Jeff, give me a piece. Do you have anything for GRP? When he was going down. I think this will be fantastic content and I'm excited about it. 

01:11:33 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
What I'm looking forward to the most. I, I I asked jason to make sure this gets axed. I I have to know where the money's coming from, because I'm not sure if it's coming from the betting. I see him at diners every morning. I see him at restaurants every night. I see these big time draft props. You know know, he's putting money down. I give credit to him. He's talking game, he's putting money down, but I'm curious as to where this is all coming from. We'll go to you in the next one. China. 

01:11:58
You shared in our group chat here photos of the disaster of a deck that is being built in your backyard. You said deck job gone wrong. Five-day job turned into four weeks of this. So you're having a composite wood deck built around your above ground pool in your backyard. And describe the photos for people who aren't listening here. There's some very awful cuts on the composite, like right around where you're going to be stepping to get in the pool, there is a staircase that has been like, like almost sawed in half and just left there, as is. There is garbage and like discarded wood Two by four is left all over the backyard. A wheelbarrow exposed screws underneath the deck. China, what is this nightmare going on? How did this happen? 

01:12:45 - Chinamaniac (Host)
All right. So I decided to expand my deck and double the size. I hired the kid that built the original deck. Kid did an amazing job. Now he pulls the GC scumbag move of all time and subs the job out to somebody. Not only does he sub the job out to somebody, that guy doesn't even do the job, and he just leaves two guys in my yard to do this deck job. 

01:13:09
Now the one thing I am fortunate about right now is the deck itself is actually level, but those putts and that stuff, like oh man, like I almost had a heart attack when I went out there and saw this thing. I was like what the fuck is this shit? Like I told them, I said keep the deck maybe an inch to an inch and a half, two inches max off the pool. So what they did was they just jigsawed it all the way around and just made sure each spot was two inches off the pool. I come home and my wife's just looking at me, staring at me. She didn't say anything. I knew what she was thinking and that's exactly what she was thinking about. So fortunately, they got off the job. 

01:13:48 - Joey Knish (Host)
I didn't pay them all the money and I have a Jedi coming in to reconstruct the whole thing oh, I gotta ask I'm I don't know if I'd hire you as the project manager, uh, for for my next renovation, where? So this was a five-day job. Where did you not look at, were you not home, or like this? How did you not go out there and kind of do a quick like hey, what's like just seeing what's happening out here and be like, wait, this doesn't look great? 

01:14:15 - Chinamaniac (Host)
well. Well, that's what I did when they made those cuts. I went out there and I was like hold on. And then they recut it. They put in a new border which they tried to charge me extra for, for fixing all those cuts. They tried to tell me now I ordered a custom border and I had to pay an extra two K, which is insane. But what happened? After about five days, we had the 4th of July come up. I went on vacation. They said they were taking vacation the same week. So before you know it, it spilled over. It trickled a little bit here, a little bit there and then finally, this Monday I just had to call the thing off and you know the guy that actually contracted the job out to somebody else. He agreed with me. He's like I think that you should do that. He's like I can't do it, but like he kind of he definitely fucked me over by subbing the job out because he's the guy that I wanted to leave with. 

01:15:07
All the listeners here is when you get a house and you start doing these renovations and projects and all that type of stuff, make sure the people you are using have a portfolio and they are all five stars or as close to five stars as possible, Because it doesn't matter who you use. Even if you do use people that are five stars, they're going to cut corners, but usually they will honor the work and fix it. In this case I probably cut a little bit of a corner by having this kid do it, but again, I did have the his past performance. The first deck he did was great. But but just make sure you get everything in writing and you know who's going to do the work and they're going to be there every day, or people will just take on too many jobs and they will fuck you over so I didn't quite understand when you were messaging about in their group chat. 

01:15:53 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So the the original contract you hired, hired another contractor who didn't work for him to do the project correct. 

01:16:00 - Chinamaniac (Host)
It was his friend. The way, that's the way he, the way he phrased it to me, was he said okay, I going to have my friend XYZ help me with the job. He helped me when I built your original deck. So I said great, you know like he worked under you and you guys did a great job. But now he left it to that guy, who left it to his two workers who made those cots, cut those stairs. That trash has been in my yard for a month. It took me two hours just to get the trash organized. Nails are on my deck. I got a six-year-old running around out there. Nails, screws, uh, wheel barrels still out there, hoses, it's, it's, it's just a danger zone right now I I think that's crazy, because I used to be at work for a contractor. 

01:16:44 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I was second command at this contract business and I would get like left at a job like this so my boss could go elsewhere, but I worked for him, so it was still him representing it. The fact that it's they've they hired somebody else like you could have just hired somebody else. If they couldn't do it, I I just I think that's absolutely insane. Hopefully it gets fixed up for you and I do agree, going to a new, a new contractor is the right move. 

01:17:09
Next up we have we have some news around Barstool and Dave Portnoy on 3Sports. There's a tweet here that says Report Fox Sports and Barstool are nearing a deal that would include Dave Portnoy on Big Noon Kickoff at FOS Reports. And then Front Office Sports at FOS says Fox Sports is nearing a deal with Barstool Sports that would see Dave Portnoy appear on Big New Kickoff. But they think that this is Fox is betting on the move, being a counterpunch to ESPN's Pat McAfee on college game day. Let's go to you first, nissen Phillip, we haven't heard from you in a while. Do you have any strong opinions around Dave Portnoy, pat McAfee, the content they do. 

01:17:49 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
I actually like Pat McAfee's content quite a lot. I'm not a super big barstool guy. I think they're cool. Some of the clips I liked, obviously I thought Nadeau was funny. I think Jack Mack is funny. I like watching some of those guys, but I'm not super into this at all. I find McAfee very funny. I think Portnoy in general is very funny. It'd be cool to see like a good rival content. I think competition breeds out the best, so hopefully it works out for them. I don't have any strong takes, though I'm excited to see it. I'm really easy with content. I find most content to be quite good. I don't really hate a lot of content. 

01:18:29 - Joey Knish (Host)
I mean I just I don't really like love. I mean, I'm not a McAfee guy to begin with, but either like even though you know I find Portnoy entertaining in this format, in like the pregame show format, when you just add somebody in there for the entertainment aspect, it usually doesn't go particularly well. Like you're just adding Portnoy to a cast that he usually doesn't, you know, belong to, like if he's in his element in you know a barstool roundtable where you know everyone's got the rapport, he's picked the people, they're talking college football. It's much different when you're just on kind of like a public broadcast show where you can't say as much. You get these small blocks of times to make points. 

01:19:11
Uh, you know, from a McAfee standpoint he's trying to be a little bit of like comedic relief and something I don't know. I'm not a big pre-game show guy to begin with and then adding in people who are there more for their brand than for like what they bring to the show or any analysis. Uh, I just don't think it works particularly well. But I see why Fox, I guess, is trying to answer with their own version of what ESPN's doing. How about you, chyna? 

01:19:39 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's worth it. I mean you could hit a home run here. It might be dull, but again I think, kind of like Kanish said, you're going to need the barstool roundtable there. Are they going to give them that much time? You're going to need Portnoy big cat and then you know whoever, wherever else they have, that stirs the straw, but it will be entertaining. If this is, fox is still big 10, right. 

01:20:04 - Joey Knish (Host)
Is it still big 10? Yeah, so it's like it's broken up a little bit now where they get. So Fox still has some like the big noon, like kickoffs and that, but now, like Fox has like pieces of different conferences as well, like Big 12 and stuff. 

01:20:21 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Well, we know Urban Meyer's on there, so it'll be interesting having the Portnoy Michigan versus Urban Meyer type thing. But I don't know. I guess it's worth it. It's like you know, it's like taking a shot on an originator. 

01:20:35 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Maybe they're going to be great, but this could be a big bust too. And the last one that we have up on the show today comes from Spanky, a sharp bettor, hosting Bet Bash coming up, which we will have Hammer people in attendance. We have a live circle back there as well for you to potentially check out. And it says attention, spank Odds users. Spank Odds very widely known odd screen in the space, but they have changed their name now to Spot Odds. The Spank Odds brand is too risque for potential future corporate partnerships. You will still see temporarily some Spank Odds branding as we complete the transition process. Same great product, same great customer service, different name. You can follow us at real spot odds. I mean, I kind of understand to a degree. When I first, you know, got involved with Rob and Betstamp and in the betting space in general, I also was kind of puzzled by the name, but I'm not sure about the change to spot odds. Your thoughts overall on this one? Kanish. 

01:21:32 - Joey Knish (Host)
I mean I don't. I got a lot of thoughts on odd screens. We can probably do it more in-depth on another day. Another great odd screen BetStamp has a nicer odd screen. There's also another product out there that I won't mention that I think is gaining popularity. That's a little bit more, you know, price friendly, I will the name itself. I thought they could have shifted a little bit to. 

01:21:58
You know, if you weren't going to go with Spank Odds maybe something a little like I know Spot Odds is kind of like you know, sp I guess. But I understand it. If you're trying to do the corporate partnership thing and go up the chance, then you know you probably don't want to have, you know, a girl's ass on your product and the slap to start, you know, starting the thing. So yeah, if you're, if you at some point you got Joey corporate knows that in this building, you know you wouldn't be able to start your, your, your spank odds up. So I get the change. I'd love to do a deeper dive into the world of odd screens at some point at a later date. 

01:22:32 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Hey, let us know in the comments if you want to see something like that as well. Anything to add from you? Flop. 

01:22:38 - Chris Dierkes (Host)
I think the best part of this was just a comment I saw. Should we call you spotty now? This spanking? That was so funny. That was just the best I've seen from this. Like, I don't care if it's. I don't use bank cards. They're not really good for what I want. They're a good product in general. I know a lot of friends that use them. I don't personally know. So it's not going to change regardless. I would be shocked if anyone now doesn't want to use it because it's a name change. It doesn't mean anything. I just thought that one comment was hysterical and, um, I hope that nickname sticks. That would be funny. If everyone started calling him spotty now, it would. It doesn't mean anything. It's like a negative or anything. 

01:23:18 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
It's just funny should uh change his twitter name not his handle, but his twitter name to spotty uh for this? I think it would add a little bit of promo. No, uh, china, we'll give you the last word on this before we wrap up. 

01:23:28 - Chinamaniac (Host)
Yeah, I mean I think it's, it's the right move. I mean I think my wife came through once when I was doing some stuff and I had the free trial there and you know, you got, you know on a new deck for her there you go yeah. 

01:23:41 - Joey Knish (Host)
I'd sound and said wait, I'm getting a. You know, Andy Benoit, or whoever that CEO was, we talked at the start of the show. 

01:23:48 - Chinamaniac (Host)
It's just one of those things when you know like I think the way he explained it was you know it's going to be hard to move on with, like sponsors or this or that with the whole spank odds thing. So, yeah, it just seems like it's the right move. So, yeah, we'll have to start calling them spotty this summer, Right? 

01:24:03 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That will wrap up the show for today. If you could take one thing away from this one is if you are going to cheat, we don't recommend it. But if you are going to cheat, don't go to a Coldplay concert and especially don't react like somebody got shot. Essentially, what you do appear on the Jumbo Tron. That is it from us here at Circle Back. Thank you so much for tuning in. Please make sure you do hit the like button If you enjoyed the show. Make sure you subscribe for For more content like this. We're back on Tuesday with more Circle Back, with the Tuesday crew featuring myself, rob Pizzola, jeff Feinberg and Kirk Evans. We very much hope to see you there.