00:00 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Coming up on today's episode of Circle Back. 

00:02 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But the thing about cheating, stiffing etc. Is nobody's a cheat until they are, Nobody's a stiff until they are. 

00:09 - Kirk Evans (Host)
This is a lizard person. 

00:11 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
conspiracist Fats was drilling me last night. Here's the replay. Disclaimer the content presented in this show is intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any individuals or organizations mentioned. Statements made about public figures or entities are based on publicly available information and are not intended to harm or defame any person or business. This show relies on fair use of social media posts, which are presented in good faith for the purpose of commentary and criticism. Viewers and listeners are advised to form their own opinions. 

01:06
Circle back here on the Circles Off channel. It's part of the Hammer Betting Network and it's presented by Underdog. This is the show where we cover the latest news from gambling Twitter and, my goodness do. We have some amazing content and amazing stories for you today. If you do enjoy along the way, make sure you do hit that like button and subscribe to the channel to help us on the road to 20,000 subs and to just drive the channel forward. Help grow this thing and the Hammer. We're already going even further. 

01:34
Today is moving day. We're recording this Monday afternoon. Earlier on today I was in the Hammer's new office. I'll also be there a little bit later to help with the moving of all the furniture and all the equipment. But funny thing going on, the Hammer is moving our entire company across town. Rob Pozzola not here for this. Rob ducking us out in Vegas making everyone else do the dirty work for him. He's busy losing in a poker turn, which means he's also not here today. We have Henry at Big Buck Hunter here with us today. In his place, we also have Jeff Feinberg as normal and we also have Kirk Evans joining us as normal. But, henry, how do you feel about joining the Circles Off cast for the first time? 

02:15 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I feel great. I've been studying all of Rob's mannerisms. I'm ready to replicate the experience entirely. 

02:21 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Sounds great. We have some fantastic stories here. As I said, probably none bigger than what we have to lead us off here today. It is an absolute grand slam. Well, it can't be a grand slam but lead off home run, I might say, for the poker story that is going on involving Mobbin44. This took Gambling Twitter by storm yesterday and it involves quite a lot of the characters overall from gambling Twitter and into spaces. A little bit Quite an intricate story. So switching it up a little bit Kirk Evans, actually to go into the details behind this one. 

02:55 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Yeah, so I really did my homework yesterday. You know hours of spaces trying to figure out what was going on. I'm also not a poker expert, so, henry, I imagine you probably know better than me if I say anything wrong on the poker side. So the story starts there's been, I think, quietly known some bigger poker games on gambling Twitter being played on gambling amongst gambling Twitter for the past few months. It started out small, so I think the assumption was everyone was good for the money and I think that kind of ethos just stayed in the games throughout. But as the months went on, more and more people were allowed into these games. 

03:54
And also, I think a pretty important part of the story is Tommy G was in these games who, by his own admission, is not a very good poker player and was willing to risk significant amounts of money, so that all that was happening for months and accumulated into a game. That happened I think it took place Sunday night, saturday, friday last week, at some point where a game was going on 15-30 blinds which to my understanding is pretty big risk, and Mobbin 44 was in that game ended up starting up around 7k and then ended up going down to around 9k at that point, when he started going down, a lot people realized that no one in this game had vouched for him. There was no proof of funds. Immediately people got scared, said all right, 44, you got to send funds, send proof of funds, put in escrow, whatever. And that's really where things got off the handle. There was an allegation that he sent a USDC payment. That was fake, a $6,000 fake payment. I believe. Those funds still haven't been transferred and he kind of booked out and still owes those funds. 

05:16
Then, really, when things got off the rails was Adam from the Adam and Earl Spaces. From the Adam and Earl spaces. It came out that he sent a text to Bluebeard saying this was weeks ago, on May 19th. Want to cheat here in a game? This blew it up to a new level and then it came out that Bluebeard clearly said no here. Obviously, the verbiage of wanna cheat here added a lot of speculation of okay, if you're saying cheat here, have you cheated in the past? Have they known this before? So Bluebeard said no there. Bluebeard over the phone told Chris Flop and man of the Vig and then yesterday, yeah, things kind of went completely off the rails and that's where we're at. 

06:16 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So a lot of stuff came out from this. There's a lot of accusations being thrown around here. Henry, I know you dove into the spaces somewhat reluctantly for this one here. What is the kind of story that you gathered on this situation? 

06:33 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Well, there's a lot of faces to it. I mean to start, as soon as I saw that there were medium to high stakes games running on Twitter spaces, I was like everybody who's participating in this knows that it's about minus 5,000, that in a few weeks' time you're going to be defending yourself against insane allegations in health spaces and he is going to have the most bad faith actors on mic saying the most insane things possible to you. And if you know that you have to own that. You know what I mean. Like you can go on there defend yourself. But you made a deal with the devil and so kirk already said it this game ran around tommy. He's the, he's the whale in this game. 

07:24
There were a lot of other very solid to professional poker players in this game and then maybe some more intermediate guys, and a lot of guys made good money and they did it knowing they would get themselves in the situation. So you kind of have to sleep in the bed you make knowing they would get themselves in the situation. So you kind of have to sleep in the bed you make. And a similar thing you know like it's really easy to talk about counterparty risk and say you should always escrow, you should always post up. The reality in both sports and poker is it's never that clean and sometimes a spot is worth the counterparty risk and people are bad at calculating it and bad at being honest with themselves about it. I've actually spent a little time trying to figure out some of the math on it because they're not to get too nerdy. But there's some weird things where the bigger you hit, the higher your counterparty risk gets, and sometimes a spot that actually seems like it's worth it, like you might. You know, if you put a five-leg round robin in with a bookie on a pph book, so much of your equity comes from going five for five and how many bookies pay out a five for five round robin on college football totals or whatever. So that's kind of a tangent. But, um, so the there's so much trickled down from it because the game is running around tommy and the it it used to be. 

08:49
The game was run by fake sharp, who is a real poker pro and a professional sports better and who has been in a lot of high stakes private games and kind of understands the ins and outs. Um, but then at one point it was being hosted by Adam. Adam wanted to go to sleep and he handed over control of the club to Tommy. And then Tommy now has the ability to add people to the game and issue them chips, added mob in 44. And so you know, if that was anybody else who made the mistake of putting a guy in who had no credit, no backer, they would be on the hook for the money. 

09:29
But nobody really wants to put tommy on the hook for the money because they want him to keep playing. You know. So like and a lot of this doesn't get said like nobody who hit tommy for 10k is gonna say, well, I would make him pay it, but I feel like I'll make more money getting to keep playing poker with them for longer. And it was kind of funny like everybody's getting so mad in the spaces. Last night, and when tommy finally gets on the microphone, his only real complaint was that people kept quitting when he wanted to keep playing at five in the morning, like he has no concerns about cheating or colluding or anything. 

10:04
So I mean we should get to the Adam piece separately and just talk about the mobbing guy. I think is its own thing. I don't know if he's paid anything yet or what. 

10:15 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I think $1,000. So what was the amount? To my knowledge, he lost $2,000 in the game but owes $7,000 in credit from the game. 

10:26 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
No, I think he somehow was—I don't know the exact details of here. I think the overall number was $9,000 that Maubin ended up owing and he's paid $1,000 of. It is what I understand. Yeah, I think we should address kind of both allegations separately here. So I would say the Maub in part's pretty cut and dry. He was playing with money, he seemingly was playing with money he wasn't prepared to pay or didn't have and he was cut. This is more the kind of classic you know. He got into a game, maybe got in over his head and now is probably going to have to slow pay. I think he's still answering people. He still hasn't fully ghosted. I think his allegations are pretty cutting dry. Henry, would you say you agree there? 

11:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It seems like it, but I you know I don't think he disputes them. From what I've heard, the other night it's says I can't pay, sorry, here's what I can do, and they're, and they're working it out. He doesn't say like no, no, I got ripped off or something. 

11:32 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
So yes, agreed. So I think that part of the allegations is like that's the cut and dry part and then the Adam part is really where it gets hairy. Interesting hard to really parse out what happened. I was saying so. I was on the L spaces yesterday and, classic, I was getting accused of you know how are you on the other side, which I wasn't on a side. I wasn't trying to take a side, I was trying to figure out what actually happened here, because to me this is a situation where there are a lot of possible stories and none of not one individual story is above 50%. So I would say the plausible theories are one Adam messaged Bluebeard to cheat. Bluebeard said no and then no, cheating ended up happening, but Adam was willing to cheat. I think that's one possibility where, if Bluebeard had said yes, adam would have cheated. 

12:29 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Can you describe who Bluebeard is in gambling Twitter space? Yes, okay, so. 

12:36 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Bluebeard works as a trader for Flop and is like a common person in the spaces I would say, not super well known, but respected, respected some not to be mistaken with blackbeard not to be mistaken with blackbeard and adam. 

12:55 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Uh, the nhl better host the spaces, as you mentioned, which we've. We kind of talked very fondly of in the last couple weeks on this, on this, yeah, on show. 

13:04 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
I also think it's very important to mention that, although people liked Adam for sure, I think there were a bunch of yellow to red flags, of things Adam has said in the past that pros thought were odd. I think a perfect example is he got a completely ridiculous line with gingy bets on the Knicks series, like a way off-market line, and Adam seemingly was presenting himself as a pro better and the bet was $1,000 to win $10,000, and he sold some of it off. I thought I immediately thought it was odd and I think a lot of yellow flag thought that was odd for sure. But you know, maybe maybe he's a pro better, but when you know, not that much money and but he's still, it's how he pays the bills, um so, but I think there were a lot of other things that people had said of like that was a bit odd, that was a bit weird, but no one exactly pieced it together. So, yeah, I think that's a plausible theory. 

14:16
I think there is a non-zero chance he was joking. I think there's a chance that he sent that text to, uh, bluebeard and bluebeard said no, and then maybe he did try cheating with 44. So I think there are a lot of the text is so odd. Wanna cheat here. Like it's such a strange text. Want to cheat here, like again. It is kind of damning like of who would send that text as a joke. 

14:52 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So yeah. So what's been thrown around is that this text has come out, but the claim is that he was joking. 

15:00 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
He claims he was joking. Gambling Twitter has mostly rejected that claim. Not a great joke, just don't. And and bluebeard said he didn't think he was really joking. I think it's important to point out bluebeard, over the phone, told man of the vig and told chris, and that's where the line ended. I'm not exactly sure what chris and v thought, but Adam wasn't playing in these games. That adds a lot of the other weirdness. Adam doesn't seem to be much of a poker player. He never really played in the high stakes games. He was playing in the lowest stakes games. Wasn't really a winner in these scenarios. So I think Vig and Flup maybe thought he was joking or thought it was a weird, just a weird thing to say, and kind of forgot about. 

15:49
They also didn't see the text, which, to be fair, does add a big component of. I think the text when you see it is a lot more damning than, oh, he said that, but maybe he was joking, um, so yeah, the allegations have been. I think most people have completely turned on adam on gambling twitter. I think some people think that, um, bluebeard was involved in it. Um, my take is that that text is so damning that I cannot in any way, take Adam's side. I think it's a ludicrous text that if I received in I don't play poker, but in a similar capacity in betting would my stomach would turn and I would say what the fuck is that? 

16:39
I don't think cheating actually happened. I think Bluebeard, chris and Vig absolutely were in the wrong for not sharing this. I think Brett, who also played in these games, was right to be extremely fucking pissed. I think Chris, vig and Bluebeard know they made a mistake and should say hand up, I fucked up. This was so fucking stupid. But I don't think they were involved in cheating in any capacity and that's kind of where I'm at. What do you guys think? 

17:15 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
anything from you, jeff. You've been, uh, you've been awfully quiet yeah, shocking. 

17:20 - Kirk Evans (Host)
You know, I do know how to keep my mouth shut the first time for everything. Yeah, I mean, it all seems quite predictable. I thought Harry kind of said it best, henry said it best with putting it out there, with like everyone knew what was going on. Certain things didn't want to be said. Do you want to cheat? And I'll jump in? Means like I don't want to play. But if you want to rig, if if you're down to rig this game, I'm in to join. Like that is unequivocally how that reads. I don't know what the history is. I don't know if he's won in the past to know that he's cheated. But we also know with cheaters, like when you get booked for your corked bat, that wasn't your first time stepping into the box with the corked bat like it just doesn't work like that ever. Um, all, very, all, very predictable. Like even knowing nothing of these games but hearing they're happening like shocked meters at a 2%, that this thing turned into something. 

18:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Right. So I I have had people joke to me about colluding at a poker game and last night I took a quick informal survey of a few poker pro friends and said has anybody ever sent you a joking text kind of like this? And everybody said yes, of course, like. This is the thing. And I've been in that position and replied immediately don't ever send me any shit like this ever again. And it's uncomfortable, like it reminds me of if you've watched the newest season of the rehearsal, where he talks about how, like, co-pilots don't want to speak up to pilots, like to say that in a one-on-one conversation with somebody where you're implying that they would cheat, implying that they would leak the message, they're like whoa, what the? You know I'm joking, so I say that. 

19:20
To say, bluebeard, I don't think this text shows that he and bluebeard had cheated in the past. I think he saw this, was mid-game, said no, and then a day or two later was like what the hell was that? Told a few people over the phone but was insufficiently specific. Um, but it's in this business you have to be uncomfortably transparent and uncomfortably honest. It's really important, like when I even interviewed at my first job, like, or at my current job like I was doing a quant engineering interview. 

19:59
You know it's like you know how would you reverse this binary tree, and I like took time to. You. Guys probably aren't thinking about this, but I'm going to tell you right now. I will be so brutally transparent and honest and never like leak customer information or anything. And they looked at me like this is a weird thing to bring up. I'm like once we're in this, you're going to realize that selecting for people like this is important. So it was. I would call it a missed opportunity by Bluebeard, vig, chris, anyone else involved, to not be alarmist about it. It's a good habit to have, but I don't think there's a smoking gun with them. 

20:40 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
For Adam's part. For a lot of people sorry Lesson learned? I think yeah, for some maybe not. 

20:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
The thing about this business, though, is it's I keep saying this business, which sounds so douchey, but the thing about this kind of stuff is it's important to suffer some consequences when you don't do things exactly right. Like I can both think that these guys weren't up to anything nefarious and also think they should get dragged through the mud here. That's just an important thing. That that happens, totally agree, totally agree. And then Adam, to me, is a more exaggerated version of that. I don't know anything specific. I haven't done any business with Adam. I've heard some of the kind of things that Kirk has alluded to that you know in general I think everybody's been through this when your career levels up, a little bit like, for whatever reason, you're getting more attention, your spaces is taking off, whatever you have the option of communicating to all these new sophisticated people you're meeting, that you're actually still down here and you're really excited to learn, or to kind of pretend you're already up here with them. 

21:52 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Yeah. 

21:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
And and the second choice is the wrong choice and some people make it and and you can end up in kind of a gross position. And so, you know, I think Adam kind of brought Tommy to this game, sort of got the game going. He was messaging the winners looking for tips on winnings and he wasn't playing the game when it was high stakes, I think. Sometimes it ran as a 100 NL game and he played and then he got like free rolled once and played, and so it's not hard to imagine some scenario where you feel like you fucked up and you kind of set this thing up where everybody else is making money and you're not rolled for it and you're on the outside looking in, and that's a bad spot to be, and you're on the outside looking in and that's a bad spot to be. Gun to my head. I would say he was quote unquote, joking. But the thing about cheating, stiffing et cetera is nobody's a cheat until they are, Nobody's a stiff until they are. 

23:07
And I always joke about the triangle of fraud, like you know opportunity, pressure and incentive, Like. 

23:10
But it is true, Like a lot of fraudulent stuff it's not premeditated, it's all of these things come together and even as it's happening, you feel like it's happening to you and somebody else doing it. 

23:19
Like how many times have you seen somebody? They're slow paying and if you don't pressure them, they kind of feel like it went away. And if you do pressure them, they're like this guy's harassing me, he's reaching out to my business partner, he's messing with my earn. Of course I'm not going to pay him now. Right, Like it follows this script where they're like never fully confronting it, and so I would say what I saw from the text is this is the kind of lack of self-awareness that can get you into trouble where, all of a sudden, you are either cheating or doing something that isn't right with your conscience, and it's like you have to cut this shit out way early and not ever send messages like this and not ever do anything approaching any of this yeah, I think, I think that's such a good point one the cognitive dissonance of people who are scamming don't think they're scammers. 

24:17 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
And then also, even if this was a joke, which I think is, as we're saying, more plausible than gambling, twitter as a whole seems to be saying even if it is a joke, it is such a spectacularly fucking stupid joke that you should never make, ever in a million years. When money is involved, do not joke about stiffing cheating. That is just as dumb as it can possibly get. But I do agree, you know, that kind of was my fact-finding mission of yesterday of like the idea of like sending that message so cold and then like Bluebeard would say yes, and they would jump in and cheat. It seemed so odd to me. But also it's so odd the idea that he would send that message as a joke. So I I do think both are possible. I did say leaning I was leaning that that it was a serious message. I I think that opinion was also formed with what people have told me, who I trust. But yeah, even if it was a joke, it was such a spectacularly dumb joke. And the last thing I'll say not the last thing, but an important thing I have to say, about when you make a mistake. I think this is true of Flop. I think Flop did mostly a good job. I think this is true of Vig. I think this is really true of Bluebeard and a thousand percent true of Adam. 

25:46
When you fuck up, don't make excuses. If you're on Spaces and you're up there and you fucked up, don't say okay, yes, this was wrong, but Okay, yeah, I did this, but it was this, oh, the reason, it was a joke and it was this. If you're Adam, you know what I love. If you're adam, if you're adam, you say okay, if you maintain it was a joke, you can maintain it was a joke, but you say it was a joke and it was the dumbest fucking joke I could possibly have made and I'm so sorry and I deserve all of this. 

26:15
You don't go up there and say he said oh, this is an echo chamber in here. You know I'm gonna leave. He was even saying I gotta give my girlfriend time. It's her birthday. No, no, you have to fucking stay in there and face the fucking fire. And bluebeard as well. Dude, I like you, bluebeard, but you know, okay, yeah, he's saying oh, I can see your opinion, I could see how you say no, I got this text and now, looking back, I can see why people are accusing me of cheating. You maintain your innocence because I do believe bluebeard didn't cheat. You say I did not cheat, but all the shit I'm getting I fucking deserve, because this was a massive mistake and I am sorry, and then people maybe will start to forgive you. 

26:57 - Kirk Evans (Host)
But once you start adding caveats, you look like a fucking idiot am I crazy to say this just seems like a lot to do about nothing if no one actually has the incident for which Adam profitably cheated on them and he got booked in this, like, I'm not saying it's nothing, but is there any incident where, like, adam crushed a poker game in one of these things, where, like, okay, has he ever pulled this thing off? And as for the Tommy thing, I don't know there was miscommunication. A guy got in the game, didn't pay. They were all so high on their own supply of taking advantage of Tommy that no one noticed. Obviously they're two separate issues. One noticed um, obviously they're two separate. They're two separate issues. 

27:49 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
But I got a guy with 200 followers on the spaces like attempted to cheat a poker game, unsuccessfully no, I don't agree with you there, because when you're the person who is plausibly getting cheated, you cannot look at things rationally, tommy. 

28:04 - Kirk Evans (Host)
If I was tommy, I would be fucking burning worlds down, I would think, adam tommy literally said on the spaces I, I, I'm a huge tommy fan and I'll say this you look at these, this crew that's regularly hosting or co-hosting or paneling of spaces. I'm a Tommy fan Known way back from like mid-2000 teens when he was a DFS guy Okay, you know, losing Millie Makers on a DJ 3-putt at Chambers Bay. I've known Tommy's deal a long time. He is the most honorable, incredible, insane person of the group and as someone that backs tommy and supports him, that's a this is a lizard person, conspiracist like that is, who seems to have more credibility than all these fucking 24 year old. Are you fucking kidding me? Okay, and you hear elf when he wants to hold adam to account. Oh boy, that's a new elf, that's a different elf. Where's that elf? Where was that guy? When other scammers were were on his platform saying whatever they want. Elf, like, got a lesson at judge judy before adam came on there. So we're impressed. Now we know what else capable of. We'll see if any of that shows up in the future. 

29:25
A lot of words to say. Tommy knew he was getting cheated in the sense that he's, like he acknowledged, on a space. I knew something could be up in these games. I knew they could be switching chairs on me like it doesn't make it right. I am not defending it. How they treated him is is pathetic and they made him his mark and that's pathetic. But he's like I wanted. He, literally to paraphrase, said something like I wanted them to be after me and still win it, like that was like I knew and that was like what I was trying to do. So it seemed like he wasn't naive about how fishy the fucking thing could be. And I'm not defending anyone. I'm not defending anyone, I think. 

30:03 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
I think there's a couple. 

30:05 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
You go, you go. Well, jeff, I think you answered your own question about does this really matter or not, by. You know the level of anger that it brings up when you actually get into the details of it. There were tens of thousands of dollars changing hands in this game. And think about what these? Why, why is vig and chris and, and all these guys messing around these spaces night after night? One they're, they're cultivating relationships and visibility to get accounts like. It's a, it's a networking thing, it's a it's a publicity thing and it's it's all about having your name be clean, um, which which I think for for both of them, it is and has been historically, and, and so to have something like this happen and be anywhere within 10 miles of it is like oh god. I sunk all this time into doing spaces at three in the morning. Okay, now there's questions around my credibility. 

31:07 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Not so much Adam trying to nickel and dime, it's more so on Vig and Flop like clearly knowing and being a part of something shady. 

31:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'm sure Adam woke up this morning feeling like he had the worst hangover of his life too. I can't imagine how that guy feels right now. And he was in a nice spot and uh, and he's not in one anymore. And I I agree with uh Kirk completely that I think there are things he could say and do to slowly but surely rehabilitate himself. He probably can't just go back to being space, this guy, but he could work one-on-one with some serious people who would then vouch for him and say he's matured a lot since then and he could have a career in sports betting like that's doable. 

31:51 - Kirk Evans (Host)
But I yeah and I, just before kirk gets in here, I do just want to clarify. I wasn't so much as saying is this a lot to do about nothing? I was just sort of asking the question, it's like, because it doesn't seem like adam came out with any of this. I don't. I didn't hear any story of like adam took home a huge bag running a game one night, um, so I was just presenting that as someone like really less, really less familiar from the details, uh, but it captivated and in some ways it was like what makes space is great, like an organic angry incident, um with with bad actors yes, and and I I do agree with you in the sense of it's much to do about nothing, in the sense of I do honestly believe that cheating didn't really happen. 

32:37 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Yeah, but it's not much to do about nothing, because if that was an earnest text from adam, one, it is plausible that there was cheating and two, even the intention of cheating without cheating is such a grave injustice crime not crime literally, but like in terms of the Twitter gambling Twitter crime it's just such a horrible thing. And if you're Tommy, who's potentially lost tens of thousands in these games, you have the right to be incredibly angry. And also, I think it's important to note because I think you got into this and I think felt like the Twitter spaces got into this a lot of well. They were kind of convoluting the idea of Tommy being a mark, let's say, as similar to the cheating thing. 

33:28
I don't see anything wrong with Tommy wanting to gamble and people who are a lot better at poker than him thinking, okay, I want to take this guy's money. You know gambling's zero sum at the end of the day and I don't have a problem with that that. So that to me is a very different issue than if there was cheating, which I felt a lot of the times in the spaces. Those two things were getting aggregated when they are entirely different and one is maybe a debatable moral question and then the cheating part is not debatable at all. If adam meant that text earnestly, it's completely over the line but why am I like and I might have missed something. 

34:07 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I maybe because I didn't mean to accuse vig and and flop of of anything. It seems like people are out there doing that. I don't even know enough of the story to make any accusation, but I'm supposed to be upset with them because they because someone with a lot of money, who's a reckless gambler, wanted to play poker with them and they ended up winning. Why am I supposed to be upset? 

34:29 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
with them. I think people are rightfully upset with Vig and Chris because they had heard of the text that Adam sent saying do you want to cheat here? And they did not inform the rest of the game. They didn't inform the rest of the game. 

34:45 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Okay, they didn't inform the rest of the game. 

34:48 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
But they might have not known like. 

34:49 - Kirk Evans (Host)
In full context yes, Totally. 

34:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
And one of the guys who robbed the ACR pro was like they should have said something about this. And Chris got on and said you were told the same thing I was. You just got a phone call. Being like I got this, maybe a joke text about colluding from Adam. I don't know what to do about it. He said well, I can't, I can't say that's just a rumor. At that point I think they felt the same way Like yeah, it's just a rumor. 

35:15 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Like I'm not going to destroy Adam with a rumor. 

35:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
He was an idiot on the spaces. He was christened shitting on, christened big. He was in the exact same and and and shark fake who I I don't know how um, I he might be really anonymous on twitter, I can't tell how much he's revealed around stuff but that guy is a serious poker player who plays on big streams and plays in private games and did a pretty good job managing these games and extending people only the credit they deserved, ending games when people got in the hole, like kind of further than he was willing to cover them on. Um, like so yeah, I mean I I think there are a lot of serious people who are involved in this who were people just kind of flung mud at, who more or less, were handling their business correctly. But this is I do just think it's kind of you play in the mud, you're going to get dirty, kind of stuff, yeah, but but I I'm not sure I I do. 

36:13 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
And look, I, I am good friends with Chris. I like him a lot. I all I don't know Vignier Lee as well. I think you're maybe letting them off a little easy. I think when you hear that you need to and I'm not saying I would have done anything different, because I can see their perspective, but I think it's a lesson of when you see something like that, you hear something like that, you need to hit the red button and say look, I don't fucking know what's going on. I don't know if it was a joke or not, but it's just too serious, especially when it's tens of thousands of dollars. 

36:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I think, we're holding them to a high standard because they're some of the few people we even take seriously at all in this situation, totally. 

36:54 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Well, that's where I was going because you had mentioned, like reputation is so important. And listen, I mean I don't know any of them on the network. That Flop is on Me and Vic used to have this thing on this but we used to have a beef but that's like long squash. You know our personalities didn't jive but like we have found a lovely mesh point and realize we agree on probably way more to say, even as someone that like for a moment, a brief moment in time, like considered him an internet rival. 

37:31
He's the straightest fucking arrow around. Yeah, like he is a straight arrow. There's enough times I've been in a spaces where he's been like his moral compass to me is like very on on mark vig and so if, whether's, I assume it's real but I don't actually know him, so maybe he's done a great job in cultivating that and the reputation. So the Vig that I have come to perceive there's no way I believe he would like a lot lost in translation, like I don't believe he would do nothing with like a serious cheating allegation which makes me believe it was never presented to him as like a serious cheating allegation, which makes me believe it was never presented to him as like a serious cheating allegation yeah, I think I mostly agree. 

38:13 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
I think I think it's just so much easier to say nothing than say something, and that's really where a lot of these mistakes happen. And I see, you've, I've seen it all the time and I would say I even fall into that camp of I thought there were like some weird things that had come up with Adam, but I didn't really mention it to anyone, not that it really like I wasn't part of these games at all, but I don't. Yeah, I think it's important to like you are what you do, not what you say, and and I think that it was much more an error of omission than anything nefarious, but it's still an error nonetheless. 

38:52 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It's sort of like when you introduce two people to work together and you say I think you're really going to like each other. It's going to be a good match. I don't vouch for either of you. It's like this. It's an uncomfortable thing to say. 

39:03 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It's like well an uncomfortable thing to say. 

39:04 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It's like well, what, what do you mean? It's like no, no, you guys can figure this out. Start small, build it up, build trust. I'm not vouching and and said like people, don't say it until you've got into a situation where you go from now on I'm fucking saying it because I don't want anything implied and you just kind of you learn stuff like that and you hope you do it better the next time. 

39:28 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Were they still playing poker at the end of last night? Are they going to be playing poker? 

39:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
on Tuesday night. I think they want to keep these games going. 

39:33 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
I was going to say the other way, but that I don't know. 

39:37 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't know if they'll stream them on Spaces anywhere. 

39:41 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
We've got quite a while here. Anything else to add on this one before we move on? 

39:46 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
all right, last thing I'll say is is is just to to. I didn't want to go too in on this, but what jeff said, I couldn't agree more with the elf thing. Holy fuck, was he annoying on the spaces. Just unbelievable how little self-awareness he has that he doesn't realize he's coming off so obviously vindictive and so obviously joyous that this is happening to someone who is his space's rival. It was truly boiled my blood. I don't think he deserves the most heat here because he's obviously far from the most wrong but just seeing how fucking happy he was made me so angry. 

40:40 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
But if you're enjoying so far, before we go to our next topic, a word from a presenting sponsor, underdog. All right, quick shout out to our friends over at underdog because if you've been watching the playoffs but you haven't been using them, then you're missing out on one of the best user experiences in the space. We've tried a lot of different apps over the years and underdog just nails it. The interface is clean, fast and simple, but not in a watered down way. It's intuitive. You log, you know exactly where to go and you can build entries in seconds without having to dig through five layers of nonsense. It's honestly one of those products where the more you use it, the more you appreciate how well it's built. Whether you're playing casually or taking it seriously, it just works and you actually want to come back and use it again. We've also heard from a bunch of you and even a few sharp bettors who said the same thing. I didn't expect to actually like this. That says a lot. So if you haven't signed up yet, now is the time. Just click the link in the description and use code CIRCLES on signup and that'll get you up to $1,000 in bonus credit as a new customer. Again, that is promo code CIRCLES right with the Second topic comes from a tweet from our very own Rob Pizzola, who talked about Illinois who is about to pass a law that would tax income on sports betting. 

42:00
And Rob wanted to put out this word here, saying Illinois is trying to quietly pass a hidden tax on every sports bet, no input from the people. That impacts most the bettors. I know a lot of bettors in Illinois. This is unfair and would hurt the experience. Tell lawmakers to shut it down before midnight. This was from a few days ago with a link to go do just that. 

42:20
Other people had words to say at. Norealcappers said, for specifics, a $0.25 tax per bet for the first $20 million and $0.50 for every bet after Back of the envelope math for FanDuel. Anyways, goes through a bunch of statistics here but talks about what the tax would impose on certain things in this space. And there was also where, from Sprott's Better who said, went on a brief research rabbit hole on what the academics think efficient sports gambling taxation actually is, might need to break out a hot tub time machine to go back and kill Arthur. I think it's pigu who, uh, is known for work in welfare economics? I believe it is, uh, but anyways, from the post underneath says gambling tax reform options. 

43:03
Um, this option would increase the excise tax rate on gambling from 20.25 percent of wagers to five percent. It would not change the legal definition of a taxable wager, ie the excise tax base. Ysop and UX tax code has excise tax taxes on alcohol and tobacco, sometimes referred to as sin taxes that are designed to decentivize certain behaviors because of their social or economic harm to society. A variety of recent studies point to similar harms for a rise in gambling activity which is not taxed commensurately. So essentially kind of going through the same lens of like tobacco tax and the alcohol tax, making it less likely for, I guess, somebody to get involved with something like this. But let's sorry with you, henry, on this one what sort of effect do you think this will have on the Illinois industry if it does go through? 

43:59 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't know the likelihood that it goes through. I haven't dug into it. But so this is just a net tax per bet and so very simply, if somebody in Illinois bets $11 to win $10 on an NFL spread, the expected hold on that is $0.50. And they would be taxed. The sports hook would be taxed $0.55 for taking the bet. So it is no longer profitable book and obviously actual hold is less than theoretical hold. So it is a regressive tax. The smaller the bets you're taking, the more tax you're paying on the bets. So I won't get into all the details of this, but there's been kind of an interesting side effect of the so-called excise tax on Handel. So Dylan Borghita, who's the I think he's the underdog VIP program manager and tweets a lot about like VIP programs and risky gambling and responsible gaming kind of stuff, he's seen some stuff and knows some stuff and I think it's an interesting follow. I had a thread about a month ago where he said it's not really a popular opinion. 

45:22
Everybody likes to shit on same-game parlays and talk about how high the hold is. But disordered gambling is usually straight markets. It's guys who bet the whole 1 pm slate and if they win they throw it all in the 4 pm slate and if they lose they go double or nothing on the 4 pm slate to try and get it back. It's people who are not entertaining the possibility that they might just lose all these bets. That cannot happen. 

45:52
Whereas same-game parlays, people kind of assume that they're going to lose and it's in the branding right Parlay insurance. 

46:00
You know they call them lottos and they at least like budget with the possibility that they're going to lose and the result has been smaller bets but it's larger quantity because the odds are so long and one of the reasons sportsbooks really like these to land the plane is because there's a net tax on handle. 

46:23
If they can reduce handle and increase hold, they can have the same net trading P&L but pay a lot less in taxes. So this is a very long-winded way of saying there is a current tax structure that has kind of sort of pushed people towards smaller, more responsible but very losing bets and that this has the exact opposite effect, which is this will incentivize books to get you to bet big. If they have to do this, they cannot take $10 bets. They're going to have to do everything in their power to get you to bet $100 plus, and those incentives always play out. Nobody ever just throws their hands up in the air and says I guess we pay another $200 million in taxes and don't change anything. They always change something. So it's a gross and ill-conceived idea. And that's just how it often is with sports betting legislation. 

47:24 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Yeah, yeah, I have a very similar opinion. So just to illustrate Henry's point an $11 bet to win $10 wouldn't be profitable for the sportsbook at all. A $10,000 bet the tax would be entirely meaningless. So that's what he's saying, with these perverse incentives of it will now incentivize the books to take as many really large bets as possible the books to take as many really large bets as possible. My main thought is and and I feel like this is my thought on many of these stories is just how bad the regulators are at conceiving these ideas. You know, like if they were having a massive tax hike and the tax hike made sense logically and it felt like the people doing it at least had a clue of what sports betting was and what would happen with the tax, I would feel at least a bit, even if it was really bad for me, I would at least understand it. 

48:22 - Kirk Evans (Host)
But it's just crazy how bad these ideas seem to always be and, yeah, this one is the most perverse in terms of it would seem to really incentivize problem gaming I don't really have much to add other than to say there just seems to be no logic in this and that's coming from the idiot here as well and it just makes me so concerned about what's going on on the more important um bureaucracies to help our cities uh, you know, run efficiently in our towns, in our countries, you know to run properly. It like it's so eye-opening when, when, um, an aspect that you have some insight on is operating so stupid. You're scared shitless that this is happening across everything and in all our major cities, from transit to any infrastructure. It does feel like it's probably the case. So that's my takeaway that we deserve to be scared shitless about where it's all going. 

49:32 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, it's. I think it's the one thing I'll say on this. It's is there's just a disconnect between like the communication between betters, regulators, all the parties involved. There's just complete disconnect. The people that are passing these laws, the people that are making regulations, aren't in touch with the industry enough to set things correctly, and I think we do have another classic example of that here On taxes. 

49:59
Good way to segue into the next topic here, because there is a conversation that is rising up once again, mostly in the NHL right now, but this conversation also applies to the NBA, and it's the discussion of tax advantages for different markets and their ability to find players at better prices on their contract. Kevin Weeks, prominent NHL reporter, says, as someone that was drafted by and played for expansion and relocated teams, the tax code has always been the tax code. Weather has always been the weather. Many people saying how advantageous that is are some of the ones used to mock those markets and clubs. But Matt Larkin posted this doubling down, just so people understand I'm not picking on the Panthers, who have no state income tax and are once again in the Stanley Cup finals says 18.75% of NHL teams six in total play in markets without state income tax. Those six teams have earned 62.75 percent of conference finals births since 2020. Get it with a question mark. 

50:59
So I, for starters, I think this is like it's a small sample size and it, you know it's appealing because the lightning were very good and and got to stanley cup finals and won a stanley cup. 

51:10
The panthers are very good, have gone to, uh, have won a Stanley Cup, have gotten to three Finals. 

51:15
So you know it's convenient that it's like this small sample size has been a run there, but it does suggest that these teams have a better chance of getting there, which I do agree with, and perhaps maybe a larger sample size would help indicate that. 

51:28
But in this day and age, it does feel as though, especially watching it from a Toronto Maple Leafs perspective, where there is a higher tax rate in Ontario and it does make it harder to find these players the Leafs have to go up against Florida and Tampa on a year-to-year basis and it does feel like there is a bit of a disadvantage there and in the NBA I cover the Raptors extensively in my personal endeavors and it does feel there's a disadvantage there in the free agent market where it's just so much more difficult to land somebody in free agency that's going to help the team, compared to a team that's in Florida or in Texas. We'll start with you, jeff, on this one. Do you feel as though there is an inherent advantage of being in one of these markets, in building a franchise caliber that can win a championship? 

52:12 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I guess so. But I mean, look, in every sport there's every free agency. Like tax situations are a big deal. Like this isn't just a hockey thing, you know, in football it's talked about with the Dolphins, it's not. You know, it happens across all major sports. If you are a good enough organization and you build a great team and a great culture, yes, it then becomes very beneficial because you have your stars and then you can onboard other players better to make you greater and maybe for it to last longer, other players around the league want to come onto your program. You have more wiggle room. They'll take less money because of the taxes, like there's so many little dynamics, but it's the same in every sport. So I don't I don't really think this is a big deal, uh at all. Like this is the final five percent. Like you need to like build the team, build, like you know, be 12, 16 guys deep, draft well, trade well, develop like mid-round draft picks. This is like the final piece of the of the cake. 

53:19 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
So I don't think it's important at all yeah, it's always really shocked me how, like, considering how capitalist minded america is and how, especially like sports fans probably lean pretty conservative as well How's like spectacularly socialist sports are. Like why, why, already there's a salary cap, already You're rewarded If you're shit with high draft picks. Like figure it out, the Leafs can spend way more on an analytics department and a coach and a GM than other teams. There's no cap. Like why are people so focused on fairness and parity? Like I just have never really understood that If you're a really good organization and have some advantages, like, yeah, sure you can take advantage of them. I don't understand this. Like massive strive for everyone should be be have the exact equal playing field in the same league. I I've never really thought that that makes that much sense and and people really do seem to want it in sports but not really in anything else. 

54:26 - Kirk Evans (Host)
so I've never understood that really and the leafs had this, but just differently, like, not with taxes. They were toronto. They had a great young core. There were so many veteran players around the league that wanted to on board with this group for less money to rail ride what they thought was going to happen in this market specifically um right, so again, like this happens everywhere, once you have a great team, then maybe, but I don't give a shit. Like no Moss, get this out of here, fucking loser. Canadian hockey fans Probably does this Anything from you, Harry. 

55:05 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I think if Kathy Hockel repealed the New York state income tax, the New York Knicks would win three straight NBA championships and she would have a lifetime appointment to the governor's mansion. So I would strongly encourage her to, and even more if she were to deregulate the New York sports betting industry. I think that would also have a similar effect. 

55:29 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
And you're being completely objective here. Well, I mean, it's only from my mind, no, but the guys in New York by the Canadian Cope. 

55:39 - Kirk Evans (Host)
No, but here's the thing Like these Panthers, they're great and I'm sure you know people are loving hockey in Florida. Maybe they're going to go win another cup. You play for the Florida Panthers. You're the star of the Florida Panthers. You're the star of the Florida Panthers. Your commercials are Ron Johnson's car dealer. Guys who are stars on Canadian teams are literally plastered on national campaigns. Right, so we don't like water in so many ways. In these situations, Water does find its level. 

56:12 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Truly, they're just blinded by the ways they're benefiting from certain differences across the landscape of an entire league. Yeah, also, and and someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you get taxed where you play. So it's not even as dramatic as people think like, it's not like. So you play 41 games in your home uh arena, so you'd get taxed at those 41 games. But if you play a game in Toronto, you actually get taxed at the Toronto level. I believe that's the case. 

56:39 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't know, I'm pretty confident. 

56:43 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, it's a bit complicated, but it does work in that fashion where, like, yes, for the 41 home games at the minimum, that is your tax situation. 

56:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Wait, you're telling me, if I'm an American citizen playing for an American hockey team and I go play a game in Toronto, I have to pay Canadian income taxes. 

57:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yes, that's a declaration of war. 

57:05 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
as far as I'm concerned, what are you talking about? 

57:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Well, look at the Canadians. They play most of their games not in Canada, or not most, but they play a greater chunk foreign. 

57:16 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
If you play for LA and you go play a game in New York, you get taxed on the New York income tax rate. 

57:23 - Kirk Evans (Host)
So the guys must have been loving the bubble, like the COVID bubble, everyone's in for it, especially the accountants. 

57:31 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Much easier for them to get the much easier. 

57:32 - Kirk Evans (Host)
and then the nhl bubble, and the nhl bubble was in toronto, so they all must have been furious true. 

57:38 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So, uh, I'm not. So I think that there is a definitely an advantage which you know. You create that advantage as well by having a good organization that players want to go to, and it does become a little bit easier at that time to get players on maybe better contracts, to stack your roster a little bit more. I'm not suggesting that there should be like a sports like regulated tax to help with this. I'm just saying that there there is an advantage present and it's just kind of like you know for to be a toronto sports fan just kind of like a sandwich you got to take a bite out of it. It's not something of like to be a Toronto sports fan. It's just kind of like a shit sandwich that you've got to take a bite out of. It's not something that you can control. 

58:16 - Kirk Evans (Host)
There are so many other ways to circumvent the cap that are bigger problems for the NHL. I'm not even the biggest hockey guy, but there's like that long-term injury thing and then you can bring a guy back for the playoffs, and his salary doesn't count. Sure, but Leafs are rich enough. Leafs have stashed plenty of guys down there and used their resources to take full advantage of something in the CBA that they can that 85% of the league would be in no financial position to swallow. 

58:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, still to me like agreed, like there's a lot of variables associated with this entire conversation. But, like you know, I just personally I'm just being a huge Raptors fan, watching them very, very close to being an NBA championship caliber team on a year to year basis, and maybe the one thing that stopped them for a long time is that they just never got help in the for agent market that other teams were able to get. Now, is that a just an issue with people not wanting to play in Canada? They just never got help in the for-agent market that other teams were able to get. Now, is that just an issue with people not wanting to play in Canada? You could absolutely make that case, but you cannot really fault the organization, because they built a very, very good organization, a very respected one, and have done that at least in the past. So it feels like a bit of a disadvantage. But good teams I think we've kind of come to the conclusion good teams can figure it out. But I would love to hear everyone's thoughts who's watching this in the comments down below on this situation. What sort of advantage exists for markets like that and if that advantage exists at all, all right, next topic here. 

01:00:08
Staying with basketball a little bit, we've got the host of NBA on TNT, alongside Kenny the Jet Smith, shaq Charles Barkley signed off for the final time. Now don't know the fate of this show in particular, which has become very, very popular. I think it's now being moved to a different network now. But I feel like this show has been really beefed up. But I'm kind of curious your guys' takes on this show. Kirk, you're the most, I think, in line with basketball here and basketball coverage. What's your take on this show? How much of a fit is this in the industry, do you think? 

01:00:42 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Yeah, this might be bad content for our show, but I don't think there are that many people on earth who watch more NBA basketball than me. I've probably watched eight minutes of this show over the last five years. I didn't know people liked it until there were rumors that it might go away and I saw everyone freaking out on Twitter. I think like they're funny. I could not care less about this show, honestly. If it goes, it goes. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Could not care less about this show, honestly. If it goes, it goes. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I never watch the pregame show, halftime show. Most times I'm watching basketball. I even have the commentary on silent and I'll be listening to music when I'm watching. So, yeah, I don't particularly care. 

01:01:28 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I wouldn't go as far as to say I could not care less, but I'm also in agreement where if it went, I wasn't really going to miss it. It's like, in terms of the actual basketball coverage on this show and the actual coverage of the sport, I don't think it's very good. I think particularly Shaq and Charles Barkley don't really provide much actual insight. I know that's strange to say about players that are so good, but you know, it kind of goes back to one of our previous conversations on one of the Friday shows about reporters. Oh sorry, we talked about Around the Horde last week on this show where, like, reporters are getting replaced now with former players. Maybe it adds to entertainment value for like the lowest common denominator of a fan, but in terms of like what I'm mostly trying to seek, I'm trying to learn something that I wouldn't have gotten if I had to watch the show. So I don't think it really provides that. 

01:02:22 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
but uh, henry, any opinion on you on the final nb on tnt broadcast not a not a big fan, but charles barkley did say the other day on a broadcast that FanDuel won't give him high enough limits so he has to keep a bookie, and so I just wish nothing but the best for him. I also know he free-rolled Circa once. He got like verbal agreement on a bet. 

01:02:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, we had that story, but then rolled out. 

01:02:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yeah, so that guy I'm Team Chuck'm team chuck agree, that's my only take. 

01:02:56 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So I believe somebody got fired over that, if I'm not mistaken. Um, but that was told on a previous circles off interview how about your wrist baby? 

01:03:07 - Kirk Evans (Host)
yeah, chuck is. Chuck is fantastic, I agree, even like hearing him when he does 20 minutes on like Dan Patrick's show every once in a while. It is truly phenomenal. That being said, most overrated show ever. I'm not a basketball guy, so take that with a grain of salt. If I loved ball, I would hate that fucking show. I would hate that you got these two guys at the ends of the desk. They don't know who anyone is outside of the top 30 players. That's even evident to me. Um, but if there is like a huge moment in basketball or like a tentpole story in the nba, I probably do. Would like watch their seven minute rap on it on youtube, like I for sure would. So out of respect to that, but I don't know, I'm probably the wrong guy because I'm not the biggest basketball fan, but I think the show is so overrated. 

01:04:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I've seen it enough uh, just to go back to what henry's saying, that was the matt metcalf interview. We heard a little bit more into that charles barkley story getting accidentally free rolled at Circa and I bet he he did win but you know, caused some issues there. But yeah, I'm in agreement, it's definitely an overrated show. It looks like it will still exist. But you know, do you guys think because we, all four of us and I think if you're watching this show in particular, you feel a lot more compelled to watch content of stuff like where you're going to actually learn a lot more of the intricacies of the sport, but has is it getting shaped towards that low and common denominator of a fan, the very casual fan that can easily digest content? Is that where the industry is heading, you think? 

01:04:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
the real preferences of viewers is that they actually don't care about learning stuff. I mean they, everybody will say they do, but that's not what they consume. So totally I won't draw any larger conclusions about the fate of society from that, but and the show. 

01:05:06 - Kirk Evans (Host)
The show really is just a common of speculation. 

01:05:08 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I wouldn't, come to side as old as sports fans. 

01:05:11
Yeah, well, I think it's part of a larger trend, but I mean shows as just being fodder for creating clips. I think they're at the pointy end of that. With regards to sports, they're much better at it than any complimentary NFL or MLB show, and as soon as the NFL or MLb finds a group of on-air personalities that create 30 second clips that do numbers, that all the content will break that way, because things only go one direction and while I bash it for being overrated, I do fully acknowledge that the sports that I enjoy have not come close to creating something that captivates it, like the majority of fans, that way. 

01:05:57 - Kirk Evans (Host)
So clearly they've done something special and they have a secret sauce that just putting great players and a great host does not does not simply replicate the thing I'm interested the most in. I've just been like a sports media observer and I know you know they have said some nice quotes over the last day, but a lot of like real vitriol from both Charles and interviews with other networks or Shaq as it pertains to like joining the ESPN family and opinions of some of the people over at ESPN. So this will just be another. You know that'll be what I will be interested in More like Kendrick Perkins and Chuck yelling at each other, but not like arguing about something basketball, arguing about how, like the other person doesn't know anything or something, but not at each other, like through their own shows on the same network. That's what I'm looking forward to. 

01:06:58 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
All right. Well, I'm sure we'll still get some content out of the whole cast there, but at least on TNT it is finished. We're going to read some of your comments from the previous week's episode and just a second here before we do. A word from one of our sponsors here, edge boost. Ever had your deposit blocked right before a big bet? Ever needed cash at 2 am for another shot of the tables but you hit your atm limit? Listen, I've had experiences like this, so I'm sure you have had them as well. You never know when you're going to get that message about a big edge somewhere. You've got to fill your account quickly before it evaporates and and you just can't get that money in there in time. Your bank blocks your deposit. Maybe you get the deposit through, but it takes 30 minutes for that deposit to process and all of a sudden, you can't get down on that huge edge that you wanted. Well, that situation arises no more with Edge Boost. 

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01:08:44
So your comments from the previous week's episode, loathsome Lettuce Wow, that was tough to say. It says I think you guys are finding a good balance of actual discussion of topics that are popular on gambling on Twitter in the gambling lens. I was critical in the gossipy nature of the show early, so credit where credit is due on the improvement. So I've verbalized I very, I, I very much hate, when I wouldn't say hate, but I dislike when it's referred to as a gossip show From Henny on the outside looking in. Do you feel as though that is an accurate depiction of the show? Is it a gossip show? 

01:09:21 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Well now I'm wondering, of all the lawyers sending you C and D letters, are really just trying to improve the quality of the content? You know, it was more of a suggestion that you guys stick to the facts, rather than a legal assault. 

01:09:36 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
I'm just a fan of the show who was trying to? 

01:09:39 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I am going to confirm if that can be left. 

01:09:44 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But proceed. Too much got cut from my first circles off. You got to give me that one. 

01:09:49 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
It's not up to me. 

01:09:56 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
The show was kind of born out of the elf spaces situation, and so I do think. 

01:10:04 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I believe this show definitely existed before. Did it exist before? 

01:10:07 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Yeah, it did. 

01:10:07 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It was perfectly timed. But we had run a couple. Did this show not exist before? Did it exist before? Just before, it was perfectly timed. 

01:10:11 - Kirk Evans (Host)
But we had run a couple episodes, elf wasn't even in existence. I don't think Elf came to exist until the NFC title game, like AFC-NFC title week, and then by Super Bowl, it was our show for a month. 

01:10:30 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I think it was week two. 

01:10:33 - Kirk Evans (Host)
That we started. 

01:10:34 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yeah. 

01:10:36 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Spaces started when we were on our second episode. 

01:10:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
The way I have always seen the show is that every week there will be a bunch of unsubstantiated gossipy bullshit all over Twitter that everybody loves or loves to hate, and that this is the show that will actually summarize for you which of these things are real and which of them are just people trying to get attention. People trying to get attention and so if you wanted a, a quick summary of did so and so, actually scam so and so, or people just making it up for clicks, you get it here. So I don't I don't know what you would uh, categorize that as, um, but definitely a morbid fascination with the the gossipy side of things. 

01:11:30 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Anything you want to add there? What's your perspective, Jeff? 

01:11:33 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I like I people hate it. I don't mind the gossip one bit, not going to lie. 

01:11:44 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Yeah, I think the gossip part serves some of our base and then more general another. But I definitely think we've gotten way better just generally of of curating topics and how to discuss stuff. But I definitely think we've gotten way better just generally of curating topics and how to discuss stuff. So I agree, I think we're getting way better. 

01:11:53 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
but easy for me to say and hopefully we continue to do so as well. Thank you for the comment there. Let's go to the next comment here from at Ricky Pucks. A plus on the spaces stuff. Elvespace used to have 1500 plus live viewers and now when I see on twitter, it's around 250. Early on, like it was like he caught lighting in a bottle, with these scammers coming on and trying to prove they aren't scammers and getting crushed somewhere along the line, he decided to try and make it quote unquote characters like he's trying to direct a sitcom instead of letting stuff happen organically, and it just spiraled out of control. The first few weeks, that space excellent. Now I can't draw myself to listen because so much of it is fake content creation. The last few days, jeff, you've been very vocal about the spaces and the direction it's headed and you've been a little bit of the prophet with this whole thing. You've kind of seen it unfold before it actually happened. So what's your take on this comment here? 

01:12:47 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, not just at the main events that went backwards or backfired like almost every step of the way. Like I'm batting nearly 9,000 on this, okay, like Ted Williams would be envious of my batting average on this beat, you make a choice, right, like I I'm not 24 um and I you know twitter was probably just starting then, but he got a lot of like it gained notoriety fast, right, but it was natural. It was natural and it was organic and it could take longer to build something on the natural, organic pace. But he wanted, like more spiking of um of interest and the boxing made him lose his mind. The natural like excitement around the mazzy perry wasn't organic, was it not? But it happened quickly and it happened the next day, so that led us to believe that had to have been, for the most part, organic. 

01:13:52
And then he saw the bump he got. The sponsor wanted boxing. He then promised boxing. He then didn't deliver two fights that he was paid for to deliver from sponsors, but the boxing broke him because he realized like the interest in the boxing was 10x and he did anything he could to hold on to that boxing situation, including getting an Airbnb. What went on in that Airbnb? I could use a mini documentary on the fact that we are now seeing Elf parody account on yacht with, with, with vance, and they are apparently confirmed. Oh shit, sorry, I should know it's fine. 

01:14:34
No, it's fine, go ahead, go ahead like I just mean, like what happened in that, like all of it, but um, but yeah, I think box boxing is what broke him, like the the interest in boxing broke his brain yeah, I think for me it's. 

01:14:49 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
The thing that really frustrates me about elf is I tend to try looking at everything on a spectrum versus. He is very binary in his thinking. Like he could have went you know, 50 in on like the more scammy types in the character arcs, but like still tried to stay true a bit to like a more sophisticated part of gambling, twitter, and I think that maybe would have worked better versus or like you know anything, if someone says something bad, you know you're against him. If you say something good, oh, you're with him. That's just kind of how he sees the world and I don't know that. I can't, I really can't stand that logic. But otherwise, yeah, I I'm a bit sad that the adam and earl spaces will not be happening for a while, because I thought they were much calmer and actually allowed people to speak, and I prefer that, even if it's not as popular. But yeah, that's kind of where I'm at anything for you, henry, on this? 

01:15:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
this I know you're not experienced in the spaces. 

01:15:50 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It still feels like there's a big gap in space's world. Like I think someone could come in. And you know, jeff nailed it the beginning of Elf. He was actually talking about sports betting stuff and then these absurd battles and characters would emerge organically and it would be hey, you should jump in. There's this crazy guy getting roasted. But the premise of it being something worthwhile to listen to, where you might actually learn something or hear interesting people saying something, and then every once in a while something crazy happened, was strong and a few times there's been a real conversation happening like I don't know. 

01:16:37
A few weeks ago Spanky was on Adam's show like looking for speakers for Bet Bash. People were kind of floating ideas and everybody's like this is so refreshing to have one of these again. Somebody is going to come in and do this properly and it's a halt. Like these guys, you do have to do it five nights a week for hours and hours, and hours. As much as you can talk shit about the 20-year-olds. Like it's got to be some guy in his early 20s without a girlfriend. Like who else can do this stuff? 

01:17:15 - Kirk Evans (Host)
There's a need in the marketplace, for sure, yeah, there's a gap. In the same way, golfing with Pozzola in the summer, last summer, there was a need in the marketplace for a show like this because I there were so many topics that came up on this show I just couldn't talk about with my like friends with real jobs, like they didn't understand the characters, like there was just too much and I wanted to get to a place where there were other like-minded people not totally like-minded, but in the same corner of the internet. We're like we could for lack of a better term gossip about these crazy things happening on our corner of the internet. Um, and I do full, wholeheartedly believe there is um a need for for the space. I don't know how to do it right. 

01:18:07
You'll obviously never be thrilled with anyone's space. They're going to do that many shows in that many hours, uh. But maybe I'm just like a spoiled, selfish listener who wants, like it to be classic radio where I could just change the dial. I don't like what this topic's. I got another space. I just change the channel and hear a new space while I'm walking my dog. That's what I, but that's greedy and selfish. But there's a need for any. 

01:18:33 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
There's definitely a need. Jeff Nadeau has talked about starting something up. He's on the Friday show. Maybe we'll get some more information about that. But there is, as they said, a gap and a need. Hardest thing to do about content is start, and spaces are a lot easier to start than other forms of content. All you need is your phone and a quiet room. Basically sometimes dive in that so you're thinking about it. Hey, maybe give it a go, because there there could be an attraction there and your competition, like the competition, isn't that hard. 

01:19:04 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I've said this many times people are looking to jump ship, yeah, but no one is also looking like elf is. You know you need to cultivate a whack pack, which is crucial, but no one wants to hear elf do a eight minute monologue because he's not good, like elf needs other people to carry his conversations right. Um, there could be someone who obviously has their whack pack and they're obviously need to be part of the show, but who could actually, like you know, go on an eight minute rant that I would care to listen to or that they could hold me. Elf can't. He instantly has to bring people on and in because he can't do it himself, and I I respect how long the timeline is and that's not easy. 

01:19:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But even like at a show opening, like elf the other day said he was like angry, he was gonna pop off like dude, like like my two-year-old daughter fucking crying uh, but like at first it's adam and earl, like we're just getting going, and they had a show where they had like like high up people from calci on and and me and vig like talking about the details of exchanges and cftc regulation, like if you can get literally anything going the some of the most interesting people and I don't need to put myself in that category, but like the people you want to actually hear and learn from in sports betting in 2025 are dying to get into these organic long form spaces and really talk about interesting shit. And uh and it's you know, circles off isn't running as often now either, like they're they're well, hey, we got the new studio space, we're gonna get the studio built we're gonna, and Circles Off isn't running as often now either. 

01:20:49 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
There needs to be a space to do this. We got the new studio space. We're going to get the studio built. We're going to fire up the Thursday interviews again. 

01:20:54 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
You guys got to save us. 

01:20:56 - Kirk Evans (Host)
And that goes to Elf and Spanky and Pozzola in his hand. He had Spanky and Pozzola in his hand. That is again. There's a lot. You can naturally an organic do from that point, but he needed, like another, you know, 10x spike and that's where he just fully embraced the other side because, you're not wrong, henry, they, he could have pulled it off, he could have walked a tightrope where he actually could have done both. Um, but you can't fully the crazy way you just you're, you're, you're, uh, you abandoned your audience and they, for the most part, abandoned you and not just them. 

01:21:39 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But look at the listener lists night after night and you will see some of the most important people from the biggest syndicates, either with their real names or their Anon accounts, are sitting there listening Like all it takes is that invitation to speak and baiting them, but you have to have the least bit of a clue about what the fuck is going on and what they'd actually be interested in talking about. 

01:22:03 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Yeah, that's really what we haven't had yet of someone who knows what's going on, and there just aren't that many people who did no. 

01:22:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yeah it's true. 

01:22:13 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
All the gossip show stuff. Uh, comment down below either to one of two things not a gossip show or gossip show. We'd love to see the overall consensus Cause. Last time I said this people were like it's a gossip show, just embrace it. We still like it, but hey, we'll see. Last comment here comes from at JimInTheCountry3849. Says. Kirk nailed it this is your burner. Hadn't watched Around the Horn in many years anyway, but I'm not tuning in again for these trash shows and sports personalities. All the former players are proving the point that just because you play this sport doesn't mean you're smart or good at doing tv. So we know, we kind of talked about this already, but uh, we got is that kind of the sentiment that we're, that we're seeing everybody yeah, I feel like we kind of went over this, but I would want to point out, I think, that maybe is the first, uh, positive comment for kirk in the show's history, so that's a win hey, maybe they bury the. 

01:23:07 - Kirk Evans (Host)
They always bury the compliments about Kirk. They get buried. I found it Kirk. 

01:23:13 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
You know what? I didn't have to scroll too far for that one. That was the third one, which means I scrolled further than the first two, but it wasn't too too far away. Okay, let's go to our topic here on the easy NBA handicapping strategy. I love looking over these, but let's read this one here From at fastest payout. It says Pacers versus Knicks Eastern Conference Final. Granted, it's over, but the strategy as posed here, may 23rd. These games are extremely easy to handicap once you know the rules and understand they are played in a vacuum. 

01:23:46
Let's walk through it together. Series line was minus 150 right away. This is line shading. What is line shading? It is betting operators taxing points to gamblers. You have you all have been taught incorrectly. Casino set lines to beat sharps. Since post 2018, you have more money and more better than ever, lines are set to beat stupid people or the average person. Line is minus 150. Knicks largest market in the world. So in reality, it's like minus 110. Pick or Pacers minus 130. Game one line is minus five and a half. Again, line shading should be minus one and a half or minus three and a half. So I don't want to read the whole thing here. But, henry, what's the title? You're on the trading team at Novig. What's the exact title for that? 

01:24:32 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
My my verbose title is the EVP of trading technology and operations, which means I would be basically in charge of identifying talent, like the fine young gentleman who wrote this post, bringing them in, putting them in charge of as much as I possibly could and really just building a bubble around them so nobody from the finance department or anywhere could prevent them from cooking because this is exactly what we want on our screen at all times. 

01:25:07
No, that's an info hazard. Um, I think twitter surfacing content like this to you is similar to, you know, tobacco companies advertising to children. It reminds me of you, know, just when you swipe too many times on a real zap and you linger too long on the wrong thing and all of a sudden, like you know, right wing disinformation is being fed straight into your veins and feels very good at the moment, but you really need to go to sleep. It's just like I. I I had to make a conscious decision not to read that when you sent it to me. 

01:25:40 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
It's a dangerous thing to engage with you didn't say I believe in the sheets. You did not want to cover this, but I did. So I threw this one in and and had to go to you first. Um, yeah, kirk on on it. For setting nba lines like this, what is the goal when it comes to the training team? I? I know the answer but, like for people who don't, what is the the goal of lines being set in a capacity where you'd have the series price at minus 150? 

01:26:08 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
yeah, I would say sportsbooks are trying to find the truest line possible and they're taking sharp bets to shape that line. The idea that you know minus 150 is a true line minus 110, like that market. The series price of nicks pacers in the eastern conference finals millions. One person could get millions down on that. There were probably hundreds of millions traded on it. The idea that it was just obviously wrong and line shaded whatever that means is is really dumb. And yeah, whoever posted this obviously has no idea what they're talking about. Again, like game one line is minus five and5, should be like minus 1.5. Yeah, just an absolute monster edge on an incredibly liquid market. Just an idiotic, idiotic pass. 

01:26:56 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Whenever the conversation of like because this is similar to the trap line sort of conversation whenever this conversation comes up, it fails to recognize that if it was like trying to, quote-unquote, trap average bettors into betting a certain side, like if it was genuinely off at a certain amount because to make people bet that number, they would just get absolutely destroyed on the other side by people who would actually have value on that side. But in that if that happened, the line would just immediately move back to place where it should be closest to the truest line possible. So it's a very big telling yourself situation and it's not unbelievable. But how somebody knows so little but is so vocal and wrote so much about something they don't have any idea about, and nobody with any mind in the industry would ever tell them that this is anything close to accurate, it's a little bit. 

01:27:52 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
For what it's worth, for what it's worth not to defend. Whoever wrote this misconception? That whoever is making the line thinks that the fair value is the midpoint between the two prices they've posted, and I don't think that's true. I think it is more common than a lot of pros realize for a market maker's fair to be bounded by one edge of their bid-ask spread and they're trading one side close to fair value and they're charging the shit out of the other side. Not to be an exchange shill, but I think oftentimes these very big games, like Knicks playoff games, if you go, look at venues where things are trading four cents wide, it is not the midpoint of the spread on the big sportsbooks it is still contained within that bid-ask spread but it's weighted one way. So there's a tiny bit of this going on and there are people who are betting at a sophisticated enough level where it would start to matter, but it's obviously not just like fade, the public, pacers and six kind of stuff and uh, big shout out to justin abuselman. 

01:29:14 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I think it is for the hashtag circle back. You ever have any topics you see you want us to cover, just hit it with a hashtag circle back. We go through those every week to help curate the show. To give you what you want to see, jeff. Anything on this one from you, no. 

01:29:30 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Line shading or you know. He's like the coding. I'm not up to this guy's code. 

01:29:37 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Well, similar conversation, I think, on our next topic actually, because at DK, under double underscore DFS, who I'm sure Kirk has never heard of until today, Double underscore DFS, who I'm sure Kirk has never heard of until today. But anyways, what this user likes to do is post threads of everything you need to know about the NBA slates or MLB slates or whatever it is. Now you can. I think this is a good account. You could argue how much that is actually helping people win money on sports betting, but anyways, posted one of those threads for the WNBA. So at jdogseeds, jdogpicks. So if you're betting on the WNBA, then call the number. 

01:30:18
Dkdfs posts the how do we tell him? Meme with Squidward crying as Mr Krabs wonders how they tell SpongeBob he's going to die at the end of the day. Mr Krabs wonders how they tell SpongeBob he's going to die at the end of the day. Anyways, betting on these not as what should I call them? Like prestigious markets, like you know, if you're not betting on the big markets like NBA, nfl sort of thing is there, we all know. Like you can find an edge anywhere. Is there anywhere? You will not go if there is an edge to be had in sports betting is there anything you would not be betting on? 

01:30:54 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
not not that I could think of. I don't like, maybe if it was like something really immoral in my head, like if the sports books started offering like dog fighting, I probably wouldn't bet on it, but I hope that never happens. But yeah, this is one of those things that, like, we do kind of always love to dunk on these people who say like, oh, if you're betting on these like more liquid markets, call the number. But I actually do think it's kind of both true, like it is actually true that if people betting on, you know, uh, chinese basketball at 2 am are more likely to need to call the number, but also, yeah, I'm sure there are also bigger edges in that market, like those kind of both are true. I don't think the commenter uh knew that. 

01:31:45
And I also think the wnba is a super competitive market. People like to think of it as like this really easy. Oh, if you also think the wnba is a super competitive market, people like to think of it as like this really easy. Oh, if you bet on the wnba, it's really easy to win? 

01:31:54 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
not quite, but it's just not but. 

01:31:56 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
But actually I actually, my main point is just I actually think both of those things are true. Like if you're betting on pre-season hockey, yeah, you probably won either. You're much more likely to be sharp and you're much more likely to have a game A wider spectrum, then would we say yes, okay, interesting on that one. 

01:32:17 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
It's just a failure to recognize that there's edges in various places and it's a failure to recognize what actually goes into placing a plus EV bet. A lot of the time, this is probably the type of person that could come up with some sort of write-up for either side of any game. You could easily find information to support your claim that one team is going to beat the other and you could easily write a compelling statement as to why you should believe in that pick and what people are giving out. 

01:32:50 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But not enough. I think it's totally chill and good to just be like. I want to get into the WNBA. So I'm going to start betting on the games right before they start. I'll see what's playing and I'll bet $50 on a team. That's a good way to get into a sport is to gamble on it For sure. You're a grown-up. You can spend 50 bucks betting on a game to learn who the players are. 

01:33:11 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
That's fine a hundred percent and and and also the fact that it was the twitter account was like, seemingly a gambling twitter account. More chained me to the side of like he. Just this guy doesn't really know exactly what he's talking about, but yeah, oh I, I completely agree with that if you want to get into a sport betting on it's kind of the best way to do it, I think, Responsibly. 

01:33:32 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It's classic, just people telling on themselves yes, I'm pretty sure I know the clock rules in the CFL better than the people calling the games, because I bet it. 

01:33:44 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah. 

01:33:44 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Like I'll die on that hill. I swear to you when you need that, that ref to blow that clock in and that other 25 seconds to run because you're desperate to hit that number like there's no way. The guys calling the game are are as in tune with me on what that clock is supposed to be doing. 

01:34:03 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Not a chance in the world uh, last topic here before we go to the mini topics in the chopping block. Last full topic, we have one from Warren Sharp. Thankfully it doesn't involve anything betting related but did pose this interesting question. So they asked Top AI to study traits more critical for success in flag football and build a team from current NFL players. This kind of relates to a discussion we had on Friday in regards to NFL players potentially playing on the flag football team at the 2028 Olympic Games. Is there a vast difference in talent there? 

01:34:39
Anyways, put up Grok against ChatGPT which you could argue if those are top AI, particularly with Grok. But anyways, which teams win? Who did they forget? So the Grock team. It has at quarterback Lamar Jackson, Running back Jermier Gibbs. As the center slash, wide receiver Brock Bowers, two wide receivers, tyree Kill and Justin Jefferson, then on defense, fred Warner, jalen Ramsey, sauce Gardner, patrick Sertan II, kyle Hamilton. Then for the chat GPT side of it it has. So asking you guys first of all here, which side would you take and anyone watching, I would love the takes in the comments down below, which side you're taking and what changes you would make to either of these teams. Jeff, I see you studying the teams here. I'll go to you first. 

01:35:40 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I'm so fucking done with this NFL flag football shit. It's three years away. You see these people asking the coaches about it. They're like they don't give a shit, like it's three years away. These coaches don't know if they'll have a job. You know, who's gonna be young and in their prime is very interchangeable in football. Um, yeah, I, I am. So I don't. I don't give a shit nfl like it does, I don't care. I don't give a shit NFL, I don't care. I don't know. I can't wait for it to be a non-issue. 

01:36:15 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I actually hope the flag football. 

01:36:18 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It's easy for everyone to say they're playing now, they do want to grow the game, but, buddy, someone rips an ACL in August. Enjoy it, enjoy it, it'll be a one and done. 

01:36:30 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Do you really think NFL players won't play if offered the chance? Wouldn't play in the flag football event at the Olympics? 

01:36:37 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I think they will play. I think they will play for sure, but it's still so far away and I am dumb enough to give credence to the flag. Footballers might even beat them if it's a one-off. 

01:36:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I am dumb enough to give credence to the flag footballers might even beat them if it's a one-off. I got totally psychologically devastated by that video of the one quarterback doing his little stripper pole dip move to not get tackled. I don't know if you've seen that. 

01:37:01
But the guy's about to get his pole and he just drops his hips to the ground and bounces back up so he can't get his flag taken, and I do think any NFL player could learn to do that in 10 minutes. But I agree that if NFL players didn't have any of the rules or strategy explained to them and just went on the field and played a single exhibition game as a blank slate the flag football team. Exhibition game as a blank slate the, the flag football team I think there's just enough cheese that they could get past them and possibly squeeze out a w that would be one of the greatest tv events like ever, like the national flag football team versus the nfl rostered all-star team. 

01:37:46 - Kirk Evans (Host)
to get to represent team usa would be amazing. But the NFL's in on this and they want to grow the game, so they're going to want their superstars on TV. It's not even going to be a thing. Those kids won't have a chance to out-duel the NFL. 

01:38:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, I struggle to see, because even the Beak on Twitter was vocal about this. Because even the Beak on Twitter was vocal about this, I believe he said he's on the USA national flag football team and I believe people were willing to vouch, anyways. 

01:38:18 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I think that's true, I think he was. 

01:38:20 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I don't think he is anymore. 

01:38:21 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah was yeah back in the day. 

01:38:24 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So understands it a lot better than me, obviously, from somebody who has no real regard for flag football. I personally struggle to see, you know, a flag football player dealing with the likes of Justin Jefferson defensively, or maybe like a quarterback going up against somebody like Micah Parson, sauce Gardner, et cetera. Jerry Alexander, I struggled to see. That, would absolutely love to be proven wrong, but I, just I in my head I struggled to see the flag football team coming through. 

01:39:01 - Kirk Evans (Host)
No, but just in terms of like ripping the flags off, and their ability to avoid having the flags ripped off is their advantage, like that is their skill, not like being better at catching the ball. 

01:39:13 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
The intricacies of the game are obviously in their favor. But, like you know, if I gave like a one-hour session to, if you gave a flag football coach one hour with the NFL team, I'm pretty sure they could come up with enough of the strategy of the game to win. 

01:39:28 - Kirk Evans (Host)
If they only had an hour, I would take the flag footballers. 

01:39:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
If they had like a four-day training camp, I would take the nflers I do think the way the passing game works is is like fundamentally broken at a high enough level, like there's just you can't be physical enough on defense. You can't bump them at the line and true NFL wide receiver ones. If you can't put hands on them they will get up and catch. And if you have Lamar Jackson getting at least three seconds to throw a ball in every play, I think you could have like 100% completion rate is the one thing that I think could make it so an NFL team could win game one in the most embarrassing fashion. 

01:40:12 - Kirk Evans (Host)
They'd be running like 25 yard out routes like corners, and the flag footballers would be running the short slants just trying to use their agility to move the field. 

01:40:21 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I would assume yeah, and even just like the great. 

01:40:25 - Kirk Evans (Host)
TV Lamar. 

01:40:25 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Jackson. If Lamar Jackson was to just scramble out like, yeah, take his one-on-one matchup, essentially Even just like the great TV. 

01:40:28 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Lamar Jackson if Lamar Jackson was to just scramble out like yeah, take his one on one matchup. 

01:40:32 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Essentially. Yeah, I don't know. 

01:40:33 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I sort of say like the Ravens haven't won the Super Bowl yet and their fans want to see him running around Like. What are we talking about? 

01:40:43 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That's another good point. So it depends who's even allowed to go. Maybe another good point. 

01:40:51 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Um, so it depends who's even allowed to go, maybe some uh like backups, I don't know because you're right, like I like if a player was signing like next offseason, could a player be like I demand to play in the olympics in my contract? I have no idea. I don't know. 

01:41:03 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
I feel like it'll be probably pretty blanket of like either everyone can go or no one, but I'm not sure, you're probably right. You're probably right. It'll be interesting to see of like either everyone can go or no one, but I'm not sure. 

01:41:08 - Kirk Evans (Host)
You're probably right. You're probably right. 

01:41:10 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Kirk. It'll be interesting to see the logistics of that as we get closer to the date. But Jeff's done with the topic and so are we on the show for today because it's time for the chopping block, the six things We've gone. We actually have gone pretty good time despite the early topic commanding the show today, which it rightfully did so because of how big it was. But six things in the chopping block today, starting with Rufus Peabody of Bet the Process. Very well-respected sports bettor in this space, pro Better says looking for someone to co-host for Bet the Process this week with Jeff Ma, while I'm off the grid. Apply in the replies. Henry, we'll start with you because you were interested in this topic here. Was there somebody in mind? Potentially you had to fill in as co-host. 

01:41:54 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Well, I just I like that they picked Kansi and Sprott's because they're like mean trolls on Twitter. So you know, rufus is kind of this like clean cut Yale guy thing going on. Also, he went to some retreat that's for troubled relationships or something and posted it on Twitter. There's a lot of weirdness going on there. 

01:42:16 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I thought it was like a wellness retreat. 

01:42:18 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I think it was, but the lady also does these saving your marriage things and her website URL is saveyourmarriagecom. I might have this wrong Because it got chopped. I didn't look into it anymore. But I have one quick Kansy story, which is that he DMed me and started talking to me about specifics, about NBA props, on Novig, and I just assumed he was a user. And I invite a lot of sharps over to the office to just have lunch and meet everybody. And so he came over and I invite a lot of sharps over the office to just like have lunch and meet everybody. And so he came over and I told everybody like, oh, like a big, no big power user is coming by for lunch and he shows up the first thing. He's just like yeah, I've never used it before, I've. I have no idea how it works, it just made me look like an asshole it was a good episode though. 

01:43:08 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah it was Jeff who would be your dream co-host for a show like this. Who would you want to see step in and fill in for a show like this? 

01:43:19 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I don't know Like it's a good show they do what they do. 

01:43:23 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
But like there were some suggestions of GRP wins, no, I don't. 

01:43:29 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
I don't think GRP and Jeff would get along very well. Jeff, ma not you Jeff. 

01:43:35 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I think this Jeff would get along very well and we'll see that in the summer. Next up we have from Juice B3B3Rage, who had an interesting take on this fight to go the distance. The fight got cancelled, which means this fight to go the distance, the fight, got canceled, which means it did not go the distance Scam duel on their bullshit. Again Shake my fucking head, so I don't know if this is serious but it is very funny. 

01:44:02 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It's a great joke. It's a great joke, very funny. 

01:44:06 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Yeah, that is really funny. 

01:44:08 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
And FanDuel of course avoided the bet because the fight did not take place. But hey, he's right, I guess it did not go the distance. But yeah, surely in the house rules. 

01:44:18 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I bet you, zilbert, if a game never started and he had the under and it was postponed, you could count that. Count it. That's what I'm saying, yeah. 

01:44:29 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Scam duel is so funny, it's not an original, but every time. 

01:44:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I see scam duel, I die. 

01:44:34 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Next one comes from Super Beast Craig. Super Beast MMA. This was a tough watch. It was Minty Betts, who's prominent in mixed martial arts and UFC betting on broadcasts of this nature, oftentimes gives out plays on these various broadcasts with the events and in this particular video, for a fight. The video was posted with a comment. I think Minty Betts needs a software update because she froze up and repeated the same tee up for her bet three times. I don't know if you guys have watched this video, uh, but what do you guys think actually happened here, because she posted a reply to it, essentially saying she doesn't know what happened. But I have a theory. What do you do you guys have any theory on this one? 

01:45:22 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
bad luck for me. Didn't do my homework. I didn't see the video, so yeah bad teleprompter. 

01:45:28 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
The graphic wasn't ready and they told her to stall for five seconds. And she's not good at that Big budget TV. 

01:45:35 - Kirk Evans (Host)
The prompter went kaputs and I'd hope she was told to stall, because the start and stopping like three separate times was wild. And I don't even watch UFC, I don't bet UFC. I guess the channel had the Jays game on earlier in the day and I actually caught this in real time and was like shuck, yeah, I couldn't believe it. What I just watched and if you've been on TV, a part of me thought she didn't even know what bet she made. Because why don't you? Just after the second time the thing goes haywire. You know enough about your bet to just give it, even if you're not going to go word for word with what your spiel is, whether you had over rounds, under rounds you know enough of why you made that bet to hand it out with a 10-second point and get in and out of there. The third restart that is. That is sociopathic shit that. 

01:46:34 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That's what I was gonna say. How could you possibly, if you are confident enough to not only have a bet I I don't know if she bets this stuff or not, I don't know but if you're confident enough in a bet to give it out on national television, surely you know enough about the bet to just improvise what you're going to say about it. If you feel so strongly about a position that you're going to share it on national television and you are already like a presenter on TV you have experience on television, on TV, you have experience on television Surely you should have the capabilities to improvise what you're going to say. Because I think it is clear. The teleprompter went down. Am I wrong? Should you not have this ability already stacked up, seems? 

01:47:21 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
reasonable. 

01:47:22 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Maybe they had two they were considering and they didn't know which graphic they had loaded up Each side of the same bet and a little grace, like being under the live TV, the lights of a studio, like that's a spot. 

01:47:37 - Kirk Evans (Host)
And that's why, like the first redo, okay, you get it, but by the time it got to three, well, once it crashes the second time, you just have to say F it, like we're doing it, like your brain has to just overcome. You know I saw some mean-spirited responses but you make your fit, like the fact that your brain didn't tell you like deliver, it was weird to me Agreed. 

01:48:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Speaking of delivering, it tough to deliver pitches in the new bullpen at Clemson. I actually think they got beaten comfortably in this game, but interesting topic nonetheless. Front Office Sports at FOS says Clemson moved its visitors' bullpen from a walled-off area to inside the field and right in the heart of its students. This is how West Virginia's pitchers have to warm up at the Clemson NCAA Regional and for anybody listening in audio here to warm up at the Clemson NCAA Regional and for anybody listening in audio here, there must be less than two feet separating the pitcher's mound from the students watching this Clemson game. There has to be some rule against this Because this is ridiculous. I love it personally, but it's just kind of ridiculous here. What do we think? 

01:48:54 - Kirk Evans (Host)
You're asking for trouble. 

01:48:57 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
I think it's a little too close of exactly. It seems like something really bad could happen. But I generally err on the side of anything you can do with your stadium dynamics that can make that can get the fans involved and actually help your team I'm a huge fan of but I agree that that's like that's too close. Someone reaches their arms out, hits a, hits the pitcher. 

01:49:21 - Kirk Evans (Host)
You know that could get bad that is as obvious an incident coming as the poker, as, like the poker game on space is like. 

01:49:29
You just see the future here, people yeah, I thought I saw it, even the pro even the players are college kids, so they're not, as you know, maybe mature enough to maybe deal with certain things and they're not getting paid enough to swallow it like an MLB guy sitting in the bullpen. They're just getting paid enough to swallow it like an MLB guy sitting in the bullpen. They're just begging for an incident. 

01:49:52 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
We'll see if something does arise. I don't know how long it's been going on, but especially for a university where you do have these more intimate venues, there is the possibility of fans very realistically having a strong effect on the outcome of a game by messing with the other team. So I like it, but hopefully nothing arises and takes it too far. We have one from Joey Knish here from the Friday show. Says you won't hear it from the fake Quant Sharps on gambling Twitter, but the Pacers are very live in the finals. Is this a case of Joey Knanish? Where he likes to do is he'll make a big grant proclamation, and if he's wrong, of course he was just trying to mush the other team. If he's right, though, absolutely genius, better Kirk, well-versed in the NBA Are the Pacers live for the NBA finals? 

01:50:48 - Big Buck Hunter (Host)
Yeah, this is a really good uh Twitter free roll. Get it right, can can dunk. Get it wrong, oh who cares. They were plus 550, whatever. Um, I have no bets on the finals on the actual series price. I have a pretty sizable position on okc, um, so cheering for them. I think if I had to make a bet I probably would take okc even at the big price. But no, no strong opinion that I'm actually betting and uh, last one here. 

01:51:21 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Uh, just, the verbiage is just great. Uh, real Fats was asking the tough questions to GRP. Grp quoted. I'm going to quote this exactly Fats was drilling me last night. Here's the replay. Seeing that in real time, that was great. A little bit more cautious with the words. Maybe next time there, george. All right, that'll do it from us today. Thank you to big bug hunter for stepping in for rob. I hope you did enjoy the episode. If you did, make sure you do smash that like button. Make sure you subscribe to the channel as well to help us on the road to 20 000 subs. Reminder we're working on the new studio, so expect some very interesting content on the way very, very soon. You can hit the notification bell on YouTube to notify when new content is coming out. As I said earlier, thursday episodes with the interviews are going to be back soon, once we get the studio situation sorted. If you're listening to audio rate and view five stars, comment something down below that you like or dislike from the episode and we will see you again next time.