00:18 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Coming up on today's Circle Back episode. That's literally impossible. Like I just, I just sort of did some quick maths. Even if the average bet was like 25 cents, it still would have been like 20 million dollars. 

00:28 - Flup (Host)
Personally, I hate Nick Cerny. I think he's an idiot and just a babysitter of a very elite team, the guy is on an absolute rager for some of the like of the most simplistic things here. 

00:42 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Disclaimer the content presented in this show is intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any individuals or organizations mentioned. Statements made about public figures or entities are based on publicly available information and are not intended to harm or defame any person or business. This show relies on fair use of social media posts, which are presented in good faith for the purpose of commentary and criticism. Viewers and listeners are advised to form their own opinions. 

01:32
It's Circle Back here on the Circles Off channel. It's part of the Hammer Betting Network and presented here by Underdog. This is the show where we cover the latest and greatest stories from gambling Twitter, and for today's Friday crew we have the ever-present in myself, jacob Germania, your host here on Circleback. We also have Chris Dierkus at Flup no Lied, our resident one-time contest winner and pro-better. We have Joey Knish, who is co-host on our Hit the Books channel here at the Hammer for college football content, and joining us today as the fourth seat is Isaac at Round Robin 42, sports betting writer and sports better himself. Isaac, you've made a couple appearances on this show, now how does it feel to be back for another one? 

02:13 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
You know, Nadeau, I got big shoes to fill here, so hopefully I can do decent Not as good as him, but hopefully I can do it okay. 

02:20 - Joey Knish (Host)
Well, we replaced Nadeau with a guy with the best hair in the business. Nadeau's haircut is an absolute hack job. 

02:32 - Flup (Host)
He's been putting it on for a decade and now we're showing him up with a guy with a full head of lettuce there, nadeau's not going to be happy. 

02:35 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
No, I told Rob I'll only do it if he pays for my hair and makeup. 

02:38 - Joey Knish (Host)
So you guys, don't get the hair and makeup coming to you I don't know. Know, we should make you get the nade dude. 

02:43 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I feel more comfortable if you got that, uh, the bowl cut or something there, instead of showing us off with that yeah, I don't know how much it would cost to get that, but we'll see maybe for the time being, the fourth seat on this show will be a rotating cast of people, so I'm sure you'll see isaac and many other people featuring, but myself, philip and kanish will be the ever presence for now. We'll see where things go, but we'll head into our first topic here. It is a large, a large amount of people went after fan duel and I heard about this, uh, while I was golfing so I didn't quite get the full story alongside rob and we were both trying to piece this together on the fly, and here's what we have so far. So we have ib, the gambler at incarcerated bob, who said he started this off by saying according to a new jersey-based vip rep of fanduel, they lost over 2.2 million on an enormously circulated home run, parlay last night. That was capped off with james wood hitting a home run versus the padres. Fanduel immediately rule change immediately made rule changes to the terms and conditions that will now allow them to not pay gamblers who hit big after tailing heavily followed parlays. 

03:53
Hashtag ScamDuel and shows that one of the pieces of FanDuel's terms and conditions it says we suspect that your account's usage could represent business usage. In parentheses, business usage includes any use by a betting operator or any use by an individual or organization supplying data or services to a betting operator. We also had Sportsbook and Casino at DPBetNV, who said FanDuel updated their terms and conditions today after a tout won $11 and turned it into $100,000 on a home run parlay last night. He posted to his subscribers and FanDuel reportedly lost $2.2 million. Expect other companies to follow suit. 

04:31
This could be a big blow to WAP and DubClub and the point that he notes here FanDuel reserves the right to void any or all bets made by any group or people acting in conjunction with each other or any individual acting alone, in the attempt to defraud FanDuel Sportsbook. Now the problem and I think a lot of people notice this is that these terms and conditions were pre-existing. These terms and conditions were already active. So I mean, before we go through a lot of the other story here, any thoughts on this, like, how is this all of a sudden? What people are looking at other story here, any thoughts? 

05:08 - Flup (Host)
on this. How is this all of a sudden? What people are looking at? Flop? Do you have anything? Yeah, so I hosted a space with Storm about this because there was just a ton of misinformation and Jeff Benson he was gracious enough to give us some answers. He explained it pretty well. 

05:20
First of all, it wasn't a reaction. This was preconditioned. They did change some words or some verbiage that was updated the day after. That is pure coincidence. As Jeff Benson explained, to update terms of service, it's a multiple week, potentially month-long process that needs to go through lawyers, multiple reviews. They couldn't do this overnight. Additionally, $2.2 million is nothing. If that's even the real loss, which I strongly doubt it is, it's probably much worse and they probably still don't care. Fanduel probably doesn't care if this loss got up to $50 or $100 million. This is a massive company and they've lost far more on the Super Bowl. I've seen them post, I think, $10 million plus losses on the the super bowl. They don't care about this kind of thing. And finally, they want to dub club and wops. These are the exact customers that they want, so it makes no sense. It's just really what, and I think jeff also brought this up. This is a great point by him. Every wop and dub club is using this as free promo. 

06:22 - Joey Knish (Host)
Yeah, guys, they're coming after us because we're so sharp and they're gonna get us, and it's not true whatsoever yeah, I mean, if you've been around the block incarcerated, bob is like he's been on twitter forever and his kind of mo is just making shit up, like making shit up from absolutely nothing. He maybe, like back in the day, would have like one story where he had maybe some inside information or any of that and wrote that and then just since then I remember somebody even did like an improv on him of like who he actually was and stuff. He would just throw shit continuously at the wall. 

07:03 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
I can't believe he's still around I came back for the first time in years. I can't believe he's still around. 

07:06 - Joey Knish (Host)
I can't believe. That's the first time in years I've even heard this account tweeting anything. So yeah, I don't think there's much merit behind what Bob is tweeting. I still can't believe he's tweeting this and stuff, but as Fluff laid out, I mean the case is just absurd. 

07:25 - Flup (Host)
But it's a great like, yeah, if I'm'm running, if I'm running a you know a dub club right now. 

07:27 - Joey Knish (Host)
Baby the fando doesn't want to smoke, we're putting him out of business. This is unbelievable. So yeah it's. It was a nice racket that. 

07:33 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Uh, it's funny how things can make the rounds so quickly yeah, I don't want to give the guy too much promo, but it was an incredible slip. It was like 11 to 100k. But if you actually post it in the dub, like surely it's a lot more than $2.2 million, right? Like how much you know, it's times 22. You'd need like $200 on that total to get to $2 million. Like presumably you get a few people tailing for like $10, $20. 

07:56 - Joey Knish (Host)
You get a lot more than that. It should have been way more, way, way more. 

07:59 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Yeah, like I mean, as Flop said, I don't agree with him that they're not even caring about a 50 or 100 million loss, but I know of plays and instances where they've lost a lot more than 2 million and it has not been that bad for them. 

08:13 - Flup (Host)
Well, Isaac, my point would be if Fandle lost 50 million to a Sharp syndicate, they probably care. If they lost 50 million to Dub Club and WAP subscribers, they probably don't care. 

08:25 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Sort of a separate question. I'm curious, like I know we're going to talk about this, but you sometimes get like the uh promoted parlays or whatever, like the dave portnoy portnoy parlay of the day, and sometimes you know they're like 10 000 to 1 or whatever. I am curious like what the biggest loss from those is, because presume you know those hit once in a while and you see, like you know 200 000 people tailed it or whatever and at those odds presumably those actually do kind of hurt sometimes that's a great point to follow up with. 

08:52 - Flup (Host)
That I mean fandle has like the share bet with your friend button. Like they want communal play. They just want it from non-professionals, which is what the dub club and the discords are so like. This is clearly targeted at courtsiders, syndicates running like hundreds of fan duel accounts or other like very nefarious schemes or they're spamming like props to get over a limit, etc. Etc. They're not targeting at the dub clubs. 

09:20 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Let's not pretend like they care so we'll dive a little bit further into the story here. We had data wise bets who kind of went through the the entire sequence of events here and did end up mentioning that FanDuel did pay all all the bets out. Everything was paid in full and the screenshots that are flooding Twitter with everyone getting really upset about the terms and conditions. This just they're just confirming here. There are no changes to that. On the day of it, which was June 24th, their anti-coordination language is already there. Vandal reserves the right to void bets made by any group of people acting in conjunction. The rumors that are coming out are completely false. As we've discussed here, vandal even messaged customers. This language has not changed. Sports betting is more fun with friends and something we embrace, as you guys have spoken of it well, because, like, if they can get somebody's bad bet and they can share it with another friend who makes that bad bet as well, they're going to welcome that. 

10:13
Datawise also said let's be clear, I'm not here to run PR for FanDuel. I want every bettor to bleed these books dry, but the instant panic reveals something darker. Betters are so conditioned to expect theft or deception that they believe the fake story. That's not paranoia. That's pattern. Fanduel has taken bigger hits before $20 million on NFL field goal parlays. $13.4 million on a touchdown parlay, $2.2 million is 0.04% of their annual revenue. They're going to be just fine, but bettors expected the worst anyways. The real story isn't about the terms of service change. It's about an industry so toxic that winning almost feels wrong. The 1% of customers actually win get limited for skill. A fake conspiracy seems totally believable. Did it seem believable? I don't know what do you guys think? We'll start with you on this one, isaac. Did it seem believable that Fanda would do this on the surface when you first saw it? 

11:02 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Not at all. I mean, it totally depends on the type of bet. Like I get it in theory, but then when they're like home run parlay, you're like okay, this is clearly a DGN bet where they just got lucky and not to you know. Call out that guy. It seems like he was doing some good combating disinformation, but he said there are thousands tailed the bet. That's literally impossible. Like I just I just sort of did some quick maths If thousands tailed the bet at those odds, even if the average bet was like 25 cents, it still would have been like $20 million. So like clearly people are just pulling these numbers out of thin air. 

11:36 - Flup (Host)
Well, to be fair, he might've been right about the thousand, but the 2.2 million is wrong, so we're not yeah exactly Fair enough. 

11:42 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Like, yeah, I mean, if thousands tailed this bet, then yes, we are talking into a territory where someone in FanDuel probably, you know, in the baseball trading team was sweating that last home run pretty hard, which is honestly hilarious. Like that's a great vision. 

11:56 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I was thinking about that. 

11:57 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Yeah, the entire FanDuel office watching this game. Praying this last guy doesn't hit a home run is pretty great this last guy doesn't hit a home run is pretty great. Yeah, the only I will say where I got. 

12:06 - Flup (Host)
Got was like oh, I was like wow, it's interesting. 

12:08 - Joey Knish (Host)
They actually changed their terms of service and then, until I got the information, well, no, they actually did it. 

12:14 - Flup (Host)
They did like a little bit of like you know innocuous words were changed around. 

12:23 - Joey Knish (Host)
It's like no, they didn't add these new sections to prevent any of this. 

12:27 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
So yeah, it's funny how that ran them up very quickly. It is kind of crazy Like I was getting sent this from people not even on gambling Twitter, like it was getting covered on, like Instagram, other social media platforms Like it. Really clearly, there's just this appetite for people being like, oh, the books are scamming people Because, you know, I think, as Flop said, like people want anything to believe, anything other than they're just bad sports bettors. 

12:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
A lot of people just wake up in general wanting to be angry at something, and if they're able to direct it at a sports book then they're going to take the opportunity to do so. But we did see cooler heads started to prevail. We have JB at Only Parleys underscore. He said FanD started to prevail. We have JB at only parlays underscores. Said fan dual is a billion dollar company, yet they're scared of discords. Make it. They're scared of discords. Make that make sense. 

13:10
Kenny at K I I L. Kenny says uh, everyone seems to be missing the in an attempt to defraud fan dual sports book. This feels like nothing, burger, but we'll see. Uh, ian McMillan, ian McMillan, ian McBets, who does some stuff, some appearances on our watch-alongs on the Ford Progress channel our football content division also does work for Sports Illustrated says the worst bettors on this app are boycotting FanDuel because they've convinced themselves it's the terms and conditions that are causing them to lose money. You can't make this up. And then the tailgate tent at the tailgate tent says I'm fairly confident. You're losing prize picks, prop touts, discords and live bettors are all going to be okay and still exist. 

13:51
After the FanDuel Terms of Service update. Jeff Benson also mentioned as well. Color me shocked not. Where are all the little kids who are so sure about FanDuel's quote unquote new terms and conditions and how everything in this industry works? Get back to your local discords, dub clubs, winnables, and keep shilling whatever you're selling? 

14:11
Said that the June 24 update only included FanDuel's new mailing address and a new term and condition involving athlete harassment. That this term says we may, in our sole discretion, suspend or terminate your account and or exclude you from the services If we determined that you pose a threat to the safety of participants in a sporting event or discover that you engage in the harassment of a sports official, coach or any participant in a sporting event. And I noted this. But also Pads at PadaDiso says to be fair, the actual terms and conditions changed from yesterday may be bad for the worst dub clubbers in the space. Yesterday may be bad for the worst dub clubbers in the space, and it's largely correct because I feel like that term is for us where they could pose a threat to the people actually involved in the sporting event the athletes or coaches. Feel like that has a higher chance of affecting these dub club people than the the ones that they were worried about before the other terms of condition they're worried about, for, like betting, with sharing the bet with multiple people. 

15:05
Isaac, you sent this. Is that what you first thought when you read the actual change to the terms and conditions? 

15:10 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
I mean, I wasn't necessarily thinking about the uh, the dub club subscribers. I do think you know, if you threaten an athlete or a coach or anything when you lose your bet, you are scum of the earth. Right, you are the lowest of the low, and I said this. I said this when I came out like that is a good policy. You know, fanduel and DraftKings if they know that someone is, you know, dming hate to players or to coaches, they should ban them and those persons should be, you know, excluded from every sports book because you're a scumbag. 

15:39 - Joey Knish (Host)
I need this to actually happen in real life, like I need to see the example. I need someone to be made Like the first person, like when you know a judge wants to make an example of somebody and they throw the book at him for something innocuous. I need someone to, like you know, who bet like $3 on a parlay, to threaten somebody at a game like under his real name, and then to get the absolute panhammer from FanDuel and like it could be blown up everywhere. 

16:06
So you know people are too scared to lose their sportsbooks accounts. You can't DM people any stuff anymore. 

16:10 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
We may have an example of that later. So we're close to an example of that a little later in the show. 

16:15 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Oh. 

16:16 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I'm glad I didn't read the rundown then, so I don't even know what it is. It'll be just as surprised as you listening. 

16:27 - Flup (Host)
That's great. I'm curious where you guys stand on this. It's like I'm in behind center field and I'm heckling the uh center fielder. If I'm, if I'm, they're the opposing team and I say you suck, you're the worst. 

16:38 - Joey Knish (Host)
That is that okay, for if furthermore, I'm on my fan duel rep and that's Bruce Dierkus. I got him on video. Get him out of here. 

16:47 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, you're assuming that his FanDuel account's in his name, though. 

16:53 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Yeah, I do think it's an interesting question, like what level? I was thinking both the type of comment and also where you're sitting. Like if you imagine someone who's like you know, 30 rows back says something versus someone who's courtside Like if you're courtside, sure, like you know, maybe you get the right to say whatever you want, but people are paying to watch the game, not to watch you. And if you say something when you're courtside, like the athletes are going to hear it. So like, do you think there should be different rules for people who say things in different locations in the arena, or just blanket rules, different rules for people who say things in different locations in the arena, or just blanket rules? 

17:24 - Flup (Host)
I think more blanket rules, Like my stance would be. If you're heckling, like you're attacking that individual, like you suck, you're a choker totally fair in my opinion. Yeah. Also, if you DM them saying like you suck, you blew it also, in my opinion, kind of fair, because you can just turn the ball you would recommend that. I wouldn't do it. But I don't think it's like out of bounds when you send death threats or you bring up family members or like very vulgar profanity. That's where the line gets drawn, in my opinion. 

18:00 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Yeah, I agree, family members, like racial epithets, any of this stuff like especially, and I think like this is a big issue for college kids, especially like you. I mean this is like happening in terms of regulation and stuff, why people are kind of so upset. Because you look at some of the messages that college students, college athletes, are getting, once again, as Joey mentioned, it's from the people who are betting like one or two bucks, which is kind of the craziest part, and it's just horrible things, and yet those people need to get kicked off everything. 

18:28 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Well, I mentioned earlier that cooler heads started to prevail. That was until we had our old friend, real underscore, fats, who got wind of it. Nobody is happier about this scandal than McDonald's, because McDonald's is no longer on. Fats is radar when it comes to the fury being unleashed on Twitter. He tagged FanDuel Sportsbook, FanDuel Racing, FanDuel Sport, FanDuel TV, FanDuel Xenia. He tagged every FanDuel account possible, even fucking FanDuel Canada. 

18:59
What are you trying to pull with this new term of service? I call for all new services and tags, as many as he can think of, to investigate this immediately At Better's Voice. Look into this ASAP. Contact all regulators and legislators. This is completely egregious. For starters, listed below you can see FanDuel lists, bets that they encourage their customers to join in and tail. Will they then limit their players if these suggested plays win big? Will they, in turn, put a max loss on Assembly plays wages that lose? All customers should withdraw all funds immediately until FanDuel publicly address the issues. Do we think, Knish, do you think this will get into the McDonald's territory of a week long? Or what's going to go on here? I'm just shocked. 

19:47 - Joey Knish (Host)
Trump's chief of staff. Facts hasn't? Uh, you know, I was going to say it hasn't hit Capitol Hill yet that, uh, he didn't even tag Trump. 

19:55 - Flup (Host)
He didn't even tag Trump. 

19:57 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Just wait, just wait when McDonald's wasn't on Trump's radar. 

20:00 - Joey Knish (Host)
Until you know later in the week, uh, listen, I know fats is, you know, later in the week. Listen, I know Fats is going through some tough times here and I'll also be blunt, I've had him muted for a while, so I don't know. I kind of, you know, keep myself out of tribe. I missed last week's show, but geez, I mean I don't. But geez, I mean I don't Like somebody get the guy is on an absolute rager for some of the like the most simplistic things here. I just I don't. 

20:37 - Flup (Host)
I need Fats to direct some of that energy maybe in a more productive, maybe in a better place here. 

20:44 - Joey Knish (Host)
I know he does some good work with. You know, maybe Feinberg doesn't respect it, but the Sports Gambling Hall of Fame, like that batch, is coming up. You know, maybe direct it at something for you know, like some of the planning with that or some of the, you know, the Hall of Fame stuff, this like I'm going to go on a tirade at every company that does. It is concerning. I'll put it that way. 

21:09 - Flup (Host)
Yeah, for sure. I just want to point out like this isn't just FanDuel. Every single sportsbook has this in their terms and conditions. This isn't a new thing. Everyone was betting it. I don't know if we have this in the next slide, but my favorite interaction was a better who got rid of Fandle because they were so disgusted with it. And the next day is limited at Fanatics, and also Fanatics had the same terms and conditions. Like what are we doing here? This is just fake outrage. 

21:43 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Again for anybody who's unaware, like it's to protect themselves against syndicates. It's not to protect them against dub clubs and and discords and things of that nature. What was also pretty poetic the same person who hit the original parlay posted a similar parlay the next day eleven dollars to win two hundred and eleven thousand dollars. This one did not hit at be better says, and just like that, fandel made back their 100k they lost yesterday. The cycle goes someone hits a lucky parlay, bunch of signups, nothing hits new lucky parlay for another dumb club's capper. Everyone jumps ship and the money just cycles around. That kind of just seems where we're at here. I'm sure we'll get another story like this. But like for you Flop, like, have you ever dealt with that piece of terms and conditions at every sports? Have you ever seen it come into play for something that you've done or anybody else here on the panel? Have you guys ever run into issues with that? Yes, I. 

22:35 - Flup (Host)
I had, um, I had an issue at one of the legals. I don't want to mention it is because I did it, did go to gaming for it, um, but I actually thought that I was probably in the wrong and I was just hoping gaming would rule in my favor. So, totally understand. And I also took a shot once at Bookmaker. Bookmaker had someone hit a home run. They didn't update their odds. I got over like 9.5 when fair was like 11.5 runs in an MLB. I triple clicked it and, wouldn't you know, bookmaker voided the bet. That's like that's the kind of stuff that they're protecting and they have every right to void. I can complain all I want, but I'm in the wrong here. So I think the TOS is reasonably fair. They've done some stuff that I haven't liked, but gaming usually sides with me, so it is what it is. 

23:26 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Yeah, I've had some instances like that with Flop not with Flop, but like sort of similar things. I will say, the vast majority of the time the the user, is in the wrong when stuff like this happens. This is I'm not trying to defend sports books here, I'm not trying to be, you know, the Kirk for this show. I'm all. I'm all for calling out sports books and all the scummy things they do. But the vast majority of the time the reason people lose money is not because they are being actively scammed by the book, but because they are bad sports bettors. Yeah, I think my opinion on this has changed over time I'm not necessarily sure why. 

24:00 - Joey Knish (Host)
I don't know when I was betting more recreationally or starting out Something like this or a book trying to leverage terms of service to either void things or like when I'm taking a shot used to really get to me. 

24:14 - Flup (Host)
I don't know, Maybe I got old and I lost some juice or something. 

24:16 - Joey Knish (Host)
But now you know, you kind of see a little bit of the like I know, when I'm going into something of that nature, that it carries a certain risk with it. And if, at the end some of that risk falls on me and my end. I kind of knew what I was getting myself into going into it. 

24:37 - Flup (Host)
So I guess that's how I look at it. 

24:39 - Joey Knish (Host)
Maybe a more mature version these days, as opposed to just, you know, outright rage. The books are wrong on everything. Maybe maybe I've been kirk. I've been listening to kirk talk for too long and now he's swayed me well, we'll get to our next topic just a moment here. 

24:54 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
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26:07
Second topic we go to the NBA universe. Because we just had the first round of the NBA draft. Cooper Flagg went first overall, as expected. I mean, we knew for pretty much the entire year Cooper Flagg was going to go first overall. It was almost essentially like a guarantee he was going to go first overall. 

26:24
And we have Fozen Poker here, who has really done a nice job of branding himself as the person who makes these bets, who makes these super high-juice bets that are I won't call them guarantees, but like virtual guarantees like Cam Ward to go first overall, in this case Cooper Flagg to go first overall. And he says $53,650, quote-unquote, risked 172, risk-free profit in one day. Picked up some money off the ground. Showcases four different tickets on Cooper Flatko first overall, one at minus $50,000, one at minus $100,000, one at minus $20,000, one at minus $25,000. Wow, has a lot of bets like this. I'll ask you, flubb, for starters, are bets like this, plus EV, like? At what point Are you able to quantify this and calculate if you can find an edge on something like this? 

27:20 - Flup (Host)
Yes, this is. The timing of when he made this bet is very key here. If he made this bet a week ago, which he did not, I would not agree that it's plus EV but he made this day of or the day before plus cv, but he made this day of or the day before the odds his. How you can calculate this? By what are the odds? Cooper flag dies or gets seriously injured or some egregious like sexual assault or some sort of allegation smoking weed or something right like no, that, not even that wouldn't even do it. 

27:50 - Joey Knish (Host)
It would be more like yeah, like things that we don't want to say on the stream Exactly. 

27:57 - Flup (Host)
So it's not 100%. He could have lost, but honestly he probably should have been able to find comfortable laying 5,000 to 1. And he was only laying. The worst bet he made was 1,000 to 1. And now you just have to figure out is it beating interest in a bank? And it is, so it's probably a good bet. It's hard to say. 

28:19 - Joey Knish (Host)
Flip. You know him a little bit better, I think, than I do. What's the bit here with what he's? Because this has been his thing. It's getting him some traction, I think as an outside observer. There's a little bit more to it. 

28:36 - Flup (Host)
Well, I mean, it all started with, like the LeBron 10+ and like when he first made those, he was betting like laying 16 to 1, which I absolutely think was plus EV. Obviously, I took the other side when it got to like 70 to 1, and I don't think it was plus EV. But I think the bet has just been got to like 70 to one and I don't think it was plus EV. But I think the bit has just been people like calling him stupid on Twitter because the bets seem ridiculous and there's so much disinformation. I mean, isaac is, I think, written about this where it's like you don't lay big, big juice because it's bad, and he's like dunking all the, all these idiots saying like look, I'm winning and it's not bad, and it just kind of grew into this and he just loves the interaction of someone, calls him an idiot. He wins because he's very likely to win. He dunks on them and repeats the process. It's pretty funny. 

29:22 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
I love the bit. I think it was Kirk who wrote that one, not me, so I'll give him credit there. Yeah, frankly, a bit embarrassing. I hate laying favorites at all. Like I don't even bet more than like a minus 200. I get, look, I get that there's value. Like you can tell me you know I'm not even laying minus, you know 900. If you give me a 10 sided dice and you tell me it's fair and I'm missing one number, like for me the juice is just not worth the squeeze, because the mental part of you know, maybe when I was younger I lost a couple too many, was it last week with the Alex Caruso? 

29:54
You know, like you're down 30 units in a day and you bet the lock to try to get back to even at minus 500 and it loses. But for me I'm not a fan of these. But you know people like them and yeah, sure, they're plus EV. I will say Chris and I actually found ourselves on opposite sides of one of these a couple of weeks ago. I don't know if you remember there was a live that I texted Chris. I was like dude, you got to get on. This Like plus 1,200 sends me back a screenshot of a very large wager and at like minus 1,300 on the opposite side. And he did win that one, although it got down to about minus 300 at some point. But yeah, not for me but for other people. 

30:38 - Joey Knish (Host)
That's your thing, go for it. It's funny because he's like he. 

30:39 - Flup (Host)
I know he lost a couple of money lines during the nba playoffs, but he hasn't lost any of the bridge jumpers, whereas like fez lost like two, two, absolute bridge jumpers, like within six months, like enough to where, like he could live the rest of his life, bet knows, and it would still be down money if you played it at the same size. 

30:54
Fosun hasn't had one of the bridge numbers go awry. He did lose. He laid 40-1 or something. I remember he texted me at 2. He was like this is actually good, you should tail this. I just ignored it and then I saw it lost and I asked him for an update. Maybe I'm not Okay. 

31:11 - Joey Knish (Host)
I didn't see it. I knew he had lost a few NBA playoff money lines to everyone's, but I didn't know he had lost a Fez one. 

31:19 - Flup (Host)
The nice thing about him is he tweeted that he doesn't delete it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he owns it. You have to respect that. 

31:27 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Absolutely Anybody else ever dabble, kanish, you ever dabble with bets like this. 

31:33 - Joey Knish (Host)
Similar to like the in markets what I would call like the draft market per se, where something like is going to do. I do it on a regular basis with like actual game play Very, very rarely. 

31:49 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Makes sense, I will say I will uh, one little hack here for some people in books where perhaps you're limited and there's no minimum odds requirement on the playthrough, Uh, and you need to get your money out through a playthrough. That's the only time and I've actually done that a few times recently where you know you got a bunch of money in there. You bet like the minus 5,000 just because you can get a lot down and get your money out quickly. But a lot of books have minimum odds requirements. That's the only time I've ever been in like more than a minus 500. 

32:16 - Joey Knish (Host)
No, it's got to remember. Some places offshore back in the day would kind of pull that hack. So, yeah, no, that's a good, that's a really good, even though not a lot of places, as you said, have that requirement in the season. Sees, if they don't, great way to, you know, burn through any rollover you got going. 

32:32 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Yeah, I will say a couple. Yeah, check your, check your sports book. There's a couple of the major legal sports books that don't have that minimum odds requirement. 

32:44 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Not going to say which ones and hopefully they don't get close. But yeah, let us know in the comments if you'd be willing to wager on something like this. Like Cooper Flagg Go first, overall something in the range of minus 50,000,. Let's say, all right, we're linking a little bit back to the first topic and when perhaps heckling can go a little bit far here, because we had ESPN who reported a fan has been banned indefinitely from all MLB ballparks after yelling something about Diamondbacks second baseman Ketel Marte's late mother during Tuesday night's game against the Chicago White Sox. A source told at Jesse Rogers ESPN T-Bone at Vegas T-Bone says you can't even heckle anymore. We live in a nation of pussies. Like Fluff was saying earlier, there's a difference between you know saying you suck and a difference between talking to somebody about their late mother. Am I right there, fluff? Is that crossing the line for you? 

33:34 - Flup (Host)
Absolutely. I mean you saw the guy was in tears. I mean these are very strong, like mentally strong athletes. They've had to go through a lot of adversity. What the fan said had to have been pretty brutal. So that's not heckling, that's just being an awful human. There's a massive difference and, like T-Bone, defending this is just. It shows what kind of person he is. How do you defend this If the guy was just saying you suck or fuck you, you're a little bitch. Honestly, I think T-Bone would be right in that case. But saying something about his late mother that died, I mean, come on, that is clearly crossing a line and it makes t-bone look very immature and very bad here. 

34:17 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Well looking immature and bad. 

34:19 - Flup (Host)
Uh, he got into it with rob after this, go ahead and get this back and forth. 

34:24 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
There's a back and forth between rob pizola, ceo of the hammer here uh, t-bone says there is no crying in baseball, straight pussy. You know the things I've, I've, I, you know the things I've had said to me while working playing slots. T-bone, by the way, is uh, would the term be an advantage slot player? Is that the correct term? I think um, but he says but I'm a man, I shake it off. I bet he didn't cry when he signed a six-year, 115 million dollar contract. Suck it up. 

34:51
Rob, quote tweeted that says this man just said heckling kettle marty about his dead mom is fair game because someone once chirped him while he was spinning cleopatra 2. Society is cooked. T-bone replied and this is the back and forth. You know nothing about slots, rob, don't act like you do. Rob said how are you so fucking stupid that this is what you took away from my tweet, which I think is it wasn't about the slots, it was about how you think roasting somebody about their dead mom is okay. T-bone says call me stupid to my face, you dumb fuck. I bet A lot you wouldn't do that. You threaded me over a tweet about a heckling a guy's dead mom. I think we're done here. T-bone forever. I can't believe how dumb you are. See you at Bet Bash. That's how T-Bone finished it off. So it might be some fireworks and hey, that might be worth the price we talked about, the price of Bet Bash. That might be worth the price of admission to see T-B. 

35:41 - Flup (Host)
See it after Rob. If T-Bone and Rob get into a fight at Batmash, I want to bet on them both passing out because they're both old and seemingly unathletic. So that's what. That's the bet I want to make. Enjoy alcohol a little too much at times. 

35:56 - Joey Knish (Host)
This was an epic T-Bone crash out. I'm like the whole day he had this exchange with Rob, and then about 600 more tweets doubling, tripling, quadrupling, down on his original take over and over and over again, then going like full crash out like, oh, I got a Rolex and you know some margaritas in Mexico and you guys are troubling me. 

36:20
Well, he's tweeting nonstop like a crackhead all day, just epic crash out. I don't know. I mean, listen, if you've known T-Bone around or seen him. The man likes to enjoy himself a few drinks or 20 or 30. And so I think he was really really on one. I think he was really really on one and I don't. This take is like straight out of you know, like a fourth-grade classroom here, like who is defending this here? 

36:58
Yeah, I got nothing to add. I got and you know I got one. Listen, we saw Brett versus man in the library. We've seen, you know, perry, the trifecta baby, give me T-Bone pizza at Pozzola after both guys have had you know 38 Crown and Cokes or whatever. They've had 30 of those for T-Bone, 8 for Rob. So yeah, I'm excited for Bet Bash. Maybe they can hug it out. 

37:26 - Flup (Host)
I think Rob's tweet tweet the best one was when t-bone commented on the slots. And like that was clear, like t-bone knew probably deep down that he was completely in the wrong and was clinging to the one thing that he might know more about rob, which he's probably right he probably does know more about slots than Rob but like that wasn't the point of the tweet, I was just trolling him and also it was hilarious to see him completely crash out over some somewhat mean words and then meanwhile call it the nation of pussies because they couldn't. It's incredible. 

38:06 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, you're right, he crashed out over slot machines and he's mad. Somebody cried about their mother who passed away. Yeah, Good, catch there, Flo, All right. Next topic we have Martin Cabrell. I think that's how I'll pronounce it. It says one trusted person offers you this coin flip Heads is plus 60% of your net worth. Tails minus 40% of your net worth. One flip, no repeats. Would you take it? Now? I believe when I initially saw this post, the no was much more heavily voted on. The final results ended up being 55.8% on the yes, 44.2% on the known Just about 2,000 votes cast on this one. Who has been able to do the math on this one and wants to share if they would do this or whether or not you should do this? Let's say Anybody have an answer. 

38:57 - Joey Knish (Host)
I was going to do it but I left it to flub and eyes it. 

39:00 - Flup (Host)
This is not even close. If you plug this into a kelly calculator, you are ludicrous. If you do this, it's. This isn't even close. The only exception here would be is if your net worth is like a thousand dollars because you're just out of college and you have like monthly income coming in and it's like you have like three thousand dollars of surplus. Okay, that's like rare exception, but for 99.9% of people you are insane. 

39:27 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
If you take this or maybe you have like a thousand dollars to your name and you you owe. You owe some really bad people like 1800. You get it by the end of the day, maybe. Sure, what do you think? Wait, chris, whether or not you plugged into a Kelly calculator, what's the number on the upside where you're taking 40% downside, like what's you know if it's a 50-50, and if you lose, you lose 40%. What is it Like? You know, two times, three times, what's the amount that you need on the other side? 

39:56 - Flup (Host)
Well, I would say for myself probably I would just need an obscene number, because 40% of it I just don't want to lose that much. Like that's my, my current stage of life, that's a loss. I don't want to eat, um, but for actual Kelly it's pro. I'm going to guess. Is this not plus CB? Yeah, you can just plug this in. I would guess like four times net worth, like plus 400%. Maybe I'm just like way off base here, though, but that would be my guess joey, what's it for you? 

40:29 - Joey Knish (Host)
yeah, I mean I'm on the fluff side of things of like and I'm a big blonde proponent of like not really. You know, like risking any of these like massive life swings, um isn't a great man, I will say this guy like I don't know if people he's been kind of blowing up on the poker scene of late for just like ruthlessly trolling people at tables. It's an absolute phenomenal bit Cause he's actually got some talent, he follows me on Twitter too. 

40:59 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I noticed the other day cause I saw it, I was about to. 

41:01 - Joey Knish (Host)
DM and tell him how much I enjoyed his work. So interesting character. I will say but no, I'm not. I'm in the fluff camp of like. Would need some absurd number on the yes to even consider it. 

41:15 - Flup (Host)
To be clear, isaac 4X was not my number. That's what I think, that's what you think. Kelly is yeah. Kelly says okay, that is. 

41:23 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Give me 2X and we'll run it. You're insane. Maybe I have less money than you guys, I don't know. But when I say 2x, I mean like triple, I triple my net worth, I don't know. See, this is the thing where, like Kelly, you know, whatever Kelly says, you know I'll take that one. What about you? What about you? 

41:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I'm not flipping this. I don't think I could survive with minus 40% of my net worth. My net worth isn't great, but if I lost 40% of it I'd be in large trouble. So yeah, not going to flip this one. It reminds me of the cash-out conversation we had about that large DraftKings parlay where it was like, okay, yes, like it's minus EV to cash out, but also from a life perspective, it's probably plus EV for your life if you cash out the parlay. So a lot of factors going, but in the end more people voted yes that they would flip this. So let me just sit there here in the comments down below, if you would flip this coin to either 60% of your net worth plus 6% of your net worth or minus 40% of your net worth or you don't flip the coin, so comment down below your stance on that, all right. 

42:36
Next up, I know Nandu is no longer on the show, but he's going to be here a little bit in spirit. We've included one of his tweets for the next segment here Flup, you were on the Forward Progress channel, which is the Hammers NFL content division, and you went through your top 10 coaches in the NFL. I'll read them out here for our audio listeners, in order one through 10. Andy Reid, john Harbaugh, kyle Shanahan, sean McVay, dan Campbell, matt LeFleur, jim Harbaugh, kevin O'Connell, sean Payton and Mike McDonald. Jeff Nadeau saw this post and said hard to fathom how fucking bad this is. What the fuck has Kyle Shanahan ever done Mike McDonald over I don't know the Super Bowl winning coach and a guy who's been to two of the last three Super Bowls in Nick Sirianni who, by the way, isn't on this list LOL. 

43:28 - Flup (Host)
Flup. What's your response to Ndudu here coming for your neck? I think he has a bad point and a fair point. Kyle Shanahan I mean I don't know if he just doesn't know much about Kyle Shanahan he was the offensive coordinator for the Falcons who brought Matt Ryan to a Super Bowl and an MVP year. He's taken Jimmy Garoppolo and Brock Purdy both to Super Bowls. His offenses have consistently ranked in the top five and have been number one, I believe, in multiple years. He is offensive scheme genius, in my opinion, the best offensive playmaker in the league. So criticizing him is just laughable. 

44:03
In my opinion, mike McDonald over Nick Sirianni. I think it's fair, especially him. Being a Phillies fan, I understand where he's coming from. Personally, I hate Nick Sirianni. I think he's an idiot and just a babysitter of a very elite team. I think the Eagles are the best team in the NFL. I would have them number one in my power ratings right now and let's say some crazy changes that I was missing. But I don't think you need a great coach for that. Nick sirianni is like an average coach in my opinion and I wouldn't. I would. I would seriously take mike mcdonald over him. Now the forward progress crew. They ranked sirianni over uh mcdonald, but like to say my list is terrible. I asked multiple people. They thought it was reasonable, other than like mcdonald, I don't know why it was so egregious. 

44:48 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
And when Jason, the host and producer on Forward Progress takes by Jay, asked Nadeau what was wrong with the list, nadeau said everything about the list was wrong, so you didn't get anything right. If you guys want to check out the full video, which Flup goes through this list and other stuff Flup does you head over to our Forward Progress channel. I will link that specific video in the description. I will also link the entire channel for you to check out. 

45:12 - Flup (Host)
I know Kanish has to like my list because I have his boy, campbell, top five. 

45:16 - Joey Knish (Host)
Well, you got him four spots too low. 

45:19 - Flup (Host)
That's the only problem. I have with this list is I'd have him number one, I think. 

45:24 - Joey Knish (Host)
I mean, you did go pretty heavy on you know schematics, play caller, that type of guy. But I think he can be a case to be made of like how much value does your head coach have if he's not, you know, bringing the offense? It's all in plays. You know that type of thing. 

45:40 - Flup (Host)
So he can weigh that. 

45:45 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Mike Legend of the Steelers. 

45:45 - Joey Knish (Host)
Mike Tomlin, maybe the best players coach ever not in the top 10?. 

45:47 - Flup (Host)
He was in my top 10, like three years ago, but he has been too tilting with his mediocrity and refusing to go for it on fourth down and he has a very bad coaching tree I would put. 

46:02 - Joey Knish (Host)
I think you've got LeFleur a little bit high too, I would have Kevin O'Connor. I think KOC is a better head coach than LaFleur. I would just like to me I know we're nitpicking, but I would flip those yeah, that's fair and maybe even put the like McVay. I think a little high too. 

46:19 - Flup (Host)
It is fun to see this because it shows, like, what people value and you know, know. It's a very subjective list. It's also head coaches. No one really knows like. It's not like players. It's really hard, right. We're not in the players camp, we don't know what they're saying in meetings and I like is is kyle shanahan truly a skinhead genius or does he just have elite talent? It might be more than just talent. I think it's more of a scheme, but we'll never really know on the topic of football. 

46:48 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
It helps bring us to our next topic here from at ev bets ks, who says I love how people spend years building their bankrolls through ev betting, angle shooting and fighting for sensitive percentages, just to have their largest annual positions on things like the nba finals or super bowl. Maybe we all we are all just degenerates at heart Flop. You responded and said you don't become rich by being scared. We'll get you back in here, isaac. Do you ever find yourself in NBA Finals or Super Bowl or like maybe in tennis betting one of the majors? Do you ever find yourself with much more of your bankroll than normal down on something like that? A? 

47:24 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
hundred percent. I mean clearly, as we've already established, I'm a bit of a degen here. Despite Chris's answer, I know he sort of falls there too. I think a lot of people, even if they sort of find their way into being a profitable gambler in sports or anything else, are at heart degens. 

47:47
But there are a couple other considerations here as well, which is, first of all, these markets are so liquid that you can just get a much larger position easily. So if you, you know, let's say theoretically, you have, you know, a $50 million bankroll and you find an edge on something, this is the only time when you can properly stake, and because of that also, the lines are way tighter. So, like you know, in a regular NBA game maybe you know you line shop you can get maybe a three or 4% VIG, maybe a little bit less. But I mean, I remember for the Super Bowl last year, for example, there was a good amount of time where DraftKings and Pinnacle were just. They were just opposites of each other. There was no VIG right. 

48:16
And so in instances like that, when you can just bet into a market with no hold, even if you just have a lean, you can take some pretty big positions and you know whether or not that means you're a D-gen. Or, you know, maybe you're just a big, rich sports better who, instead of playing at the blackjack tables, wants to take a position here at relatively low vig. But to answer his question, yes, I think most sports betters are D-gens at heart, even if they are profitable. 

48:44 - Joey Knish (Host)
I've tried to. You know like I try and keep my weighting and I have for a career and maybe that's cost me, you know, some some ROI over the years, but I've traditionally tried to keep my weighting between some of the higher edge stuff that I fill and maybe some of the more liquid market stuff as rational as possible. It's not always going to be even, but that's just been the strategy I've taken over the long haul for the build. That doesn't say, though, like in those instances I more just would put down what like a standard, like maybe I'll bet in a lot of cases, like if a game's on, I want to bet something that maybe an NBA game at post something. 

49:29
I'm watching with some buddies, put something down where it'll give me some just action per se of a normal unit size, but I haven't found myself in those scenarios where I'm significantly overweight just because it's a major event. Maybe that's unique to me, but it's just not something that. 

49:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I've done in the past. Well, you mentioned you don't become rich by being scared. So what's your take on this? 

49:59 - Flup (Host)
I think Isaac summed up very well. I agree with basically everything he said, but the reason I tweeted it I've been thinking a lot lately and I just think so many winning bettors underbet than what they should Like. You know, kelly is a great term and I see so many people betting quarter Kelly. It's like well, we already have. And it's like for someone like Joey Kanish who has a job, in my opinion he should be betting very aggressively, probably half or even full Kelly in a lot of spots because he has something to fall back on, and I think most sports bettors. My attitude has been I don't know if I'm going to be profitable in five years. I want to take what I can get now and you've got to go big and you don't become rich by being scared. So that's why I tweeted it. And to Isaac's point like if you have an edge, you can't get it filled most of the time, but I can get it filled on the super ball or or like the nba finals, etc. 

50:55 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
etc I do think I mean. Another thing also is that there are instances in markets like this where, because there is so much public money, you can't actually find edges, whether that's on like the main lines or props. You know the limits are going to be way higher on props for the Super Bowl than anything else, so you can just sort of get more and they are influenced. You know the classic Mayweather McGregor, paul, paul Tyson, right like markets where there's so much rec money that there actually are sort of big edges because of that. 

51:24
Yeah, you know what it's kind of a fascinating psychology conversation around to like. 

51:29 - Joey Knish (Host)
I've definitely cost myself money by not, you know, operating on a, you know a full Kelly or or you know like, at a risk standpoint. I mean, I was fortunate enough to make good money in the industry and for for a while there's that psychological, what I'll call almost like a block in me, though that never wants to go back to, you know, like pre-Joy Kina before I. You know that, like you know, very lower middle of you know wanting to not push the edge so much and seeing so many people in the industry that maybe have you know some people that you know we've mentioned on the pod for that have probably significantly overbet and then found themselves back at square one or found themselves at bust, and you know what. 

52:23 - Flup (Host)
I'll even give you an example of a guy who's that fluff. 

52:27 - Joey Knish (Host)
I know you know right now he goes by TomJrSenior on Twitter. 

52:32 - Flup (Host)
And he bets that you know he likes to go nosebleed stakes. 

52:41 - Joey Knish (Host)
That's the type, even though I know he's very smart, runs a good operation, but he's got almost a little like when. I see people like that. I think sometimes maybe they got a little too much gamble in them and you can end up back on your ass, not knowing where to start, because it's hard to operate in this game without any capital. I will say yeah. 

53:02 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
I'll say sort of to back up Joey there despite what Fluff says, you know you don't get rich by being scared. It is definitely better to under bet than to over bet. You know you can think about the tails right Like your chances of becoming fantastically rich are obviously lower. But yeah, you know you don't want to go broke. 

53:22 - Flup (Host)
I agree and like to go back to our earlier topics that we had. It's like there's a reason why I wouldn't flip the minus 40% net worth. Plus 60% net worth. If I really want to be super rich quick, I take that flip, but that's also how you go bust very aggressively. But my point is I think most people underbet and it's not a difference between underbetting and overbetting. It's an underbetting versus properly betting is what I think most people do. And, joey, you really are acting like Joey Kanish from Rounders here. You know, just grinding out that. I like that. You're really doing your Twitter hand as well. 

53:53 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
That's what I did in the first place I'll say yeah. One more thing about this tweet, which is that a lot of times those positions aren't like day of positions, they're futures. Right, and they're naturally futures are often going to have much longer odds. So, like, you get to this point where it's like oh, you know, sharps have their biggest position of the year on the NBA finals. It's not because they just degen 10 units or whatever at post, it's because they had a future on this team at you know, plus 1200. And now they're seeing it to fruition. So that's sort of naturally why you might have some larger positions on those. Like I know for myself personally, jacob, yes for tennis. Yeah, like some of the largest positions I've had have been on futures, but it's not because the bet itself was so big, but it's because it was a future where we got to the end and you're like, oh, oh, boy, now we got a big spot that was me. 

54:42 - Flup (Host)
With the nba finals. I had one of biggest, if not the biggest, position I've had on the Thunder Game 7. 

54:48 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
You actually got one Flo. 

54:49 - Flup (Host)
Yes, I got one you got one of the NBA playoffs. We have that comment. I want to talk to that man that's been saying I need to retire, I'm not retiring anymore. 

54:56 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
I think it was me. At least I was one of them. 

55:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
All right. Next topic we have DK underscore DFS, who does sports betting content, daily fantasy sports content. Who said I wonder why they have been promoting your parlays? And it's one of our old friends, big Board Bets at SGP. 

55:16
Underscore Vic, who does pick selling with Dub Club, who says, ok, fanduel, explain this section then, because you have used one of my plays every single day since 11-11 and is showcasing under the popular plays in the Par. Have used one of my plays every single day since 11 11 and is showcasing under the popular plays in the parlay hub one of his vets once again. And then another one dk dfs went at says my brother in christ, that's your dub club earnings. Because frank at sax, likely also a dub club seller, says I can show you how to make a quarter of a million in six months legally, and it's his recent earnings with his dub club page. So, um, let's go back to the first one, because I think this one is a little bit funnier. Um flip, why would it be a tell if somebody were to have their parlays featured on fanduel consistently? 

55:58 - Flup (Host)
well, let's just go through some basic logic here. Does fanduel have a profit and then have a positive hold on the customers? Yes, they do. If they're promoting a bet, do we think that's a negative EV bet Going to go with also yes, so by that logic, it's likely that SGP's VIX bets are not in fact winning. And I just want to shout out no, it wasn't really the main topic here. Dk has gone through like a year and a half of just. I thought he was so annoying. I remember when Kirk Evans attacked him. We all remember. 

56:29
He did that, he tweeted the Miles Bridges thing and I was like, oh, this fucking guy and I trolled him for that. 

56:38 - Joey Knish (Host)
Oh yeah. 

56:38 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So for anybody who doesn't know the story just the backstory is, it was apparent to a lot of people that it was Mikael Bridges was who has this Ironman streak going. It was apparent that he was going to play probably like less than a quarter of the game and then not play the rest, but the the props were priced as if he was going to play the full game and DKDFS shared this with his followers. So the people who were absolutely nuking this weren't able to get as much down as they wanted to. Kirk evans got very upset, to say the least. All right, go ahead flip yeah. 

57:08 - Flup (Host)
So I should shout out to him he's gone from like quite the upswing in my opinion of like my personal opinion of him has increased tenfold over the last year and a half. So well done with this tweet. But scb vic, it's just hilarious, like if you think he's winning and you buy his dub club, I mean the signs are right there, I I will. I can never say with 100 certainty because I don't track him and there's probably not enough plays, but I mean, come on, apply some basic common sense here all right. 

57:33 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Uh, we're bringing this segment back when it's needed. We have it ready to go. It is return fire. It was joey knish who wanted it for the show today. Knish, what is your beef today, with what we had on the Tuesday show? Listen. 

57:46 - Joey Knish (Host)
I may have made a comment in the past that you know, jason was a you know actually a pretty good. You know, I thought he was good on the panel. 

57:54 - Flup (Host)
You know some of the early circlebacks when he filled in great job really enjoyed it I 

57:59 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
thought hey, he's not much of a producer, but you get him on the limelight and he looks all right. 

58:05 - Joey Knish (Host)
And then the fucking guy on this week's episode. First off, he's like promoting a life hedge around Iran nuking the US. If you live in DC, what the fuck are you talking? 

58:19
That is the most idiot Canadian thing I've ever heard Like yes, yes yes, you should hedge on the market and know that Iran has a nuke because they're going to then fire it on Washington DC as like a serious conversation this sounded like some like like 86-year-old guy that's lost his mind talking about what to do if Iran and even if they got one like they would one be able to fire it at the US and two would actually do it. Like what was that conversation? And then at the end of it, I mean it was like the last segment, the Sophie Cunningham, just let the Joey K with an all-time viral tweet and he's trying to you know, sweep it. 

59:08
No, no, no, no, no, my friend, give it to Joey, give me the flowers here, just because you couldn't come up with a tweet that could get 12 likes, much less 80,000. He's trying to take the moment away, so and I would say that was Jason's last episode of Circle Back I've talked to Rob and said he's out. We're not letting him back on the panel after that showing. So, hey, if you liked Jason which I know there wasn't too many of you, even as a former Jason backer it's over. 

59:45 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
By the way, jason hasn't been canned from circle back. Uh, nobody's noticed this. But on on the our social media, our YouTube header and our Twitter header, we cause we had to replace the dude's face on it. Uh, replace it with Jason. I actually did it before the show happened. I was wondering if anybody would notice. It noticed it, so now you can go have a look at I actually I do have some return fire as well. 

01:00:06 - Flup (Host)
I was thinking about this. I really strongly disliked their y'all's takes on doxing. The people were very upset with like oh you think you should be able to dock someone anonymous if they they tweet or dm you something aggressive and and jeff did show me some things that were like well beyond the line here. But I think doxing we saw with Boomer Bets can be really problematic and there is tons of good reasons why you don't want your public docs out there. I know I have my public docs out there, my full name. Everybody knows I'm in New York. If you wanted to find my address, it's probably not that hard, I'm out there. But if you have a job that maybe doesn't like gambling, a wife that doesn't like you doing these things, you have family members you want to protect. I mean we just saw Nadeau himself, who was crusading against the anonymous accounts, even say like I'm not going to be treating him like about my family. I took my wife off my profile picture for that exact reason. 

01:01:08
Doxing can be very aggressive and there's very solid reasons why you should be anonymous. You have to use an extremely high bar before you. Dox mean words in general, don't do it unless it gets to align the stuff that jeff had sent me. That did cross the line. But scamming like outright theft. Fine and truly egregious words are the only things in my book. It sounded like to me that they were saying. Oh, if he says like you know some hurtful things, like you know fuck you, or some curse words like you should dox, like that's ridiculous in my opinion. 

01:01:43 - Joey Knish (Host)
No, I agree with you. I thought you leaned on your side of things. Someone used it obviously like a company, when I originally did like and I don't think Rob, I know you used his regular name Like when I was creating a Twitter profile. It's hard for some of the you know, because I see some of the younger crowd now that talks about it. But like 15 years ago, gambling in in general, like gambling on sports was still very like I'm not gonna call it taboo but one. 

01:02:13 - Flup (Host)
It wasn't legal, so if you had, it was like and two you didn't want people finding out. 

01:02:16 - Joey Knish (Host)
Like you know if you use, like you could have shipper working at the training and like know who rob pozzola is and then just boom, I'm gonna type in Rob Pozzola and ban himself like if I'm using. 

01:02:29 - Flup (Host)
He said publicly he limited Johnny so I have inside. 

01:02:35 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
I have inside info that uh Shipper instituted a blanket ban on everybody who went to my high school at points bet, just because he knew we were a bunch of nerds, so that's one of those things where like yes, if you're using a real net like then it's very easy. 

01:02:49 - Joey Knish (Host)
I don't think people realize how many, how much of a presence trading rooms have on twitter in it that there's always people that are like know somebody knows we're in the room. That are following like bigger names or what's going on. So, yeah, I'm with you, bluff. I think it's only in a, you know, drastic scenarios there that it justified. 

01:03:11 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
All right, let's get to the chopping block. This is the segment of the show where we go through some additional topics that don't warrant full-scale coverage, but we do want to talk about a little bit. We'll start off with Jeff Nadeau. Once again, sources stating that Celebrity Better and Tao Mazzi is currently sitting in Clark County Detention Center, in which is a class C felony. His arraignment is tomorrow, that's June 24th 2025. Kanish, you wanted to discuss this. What's your take on that? 

01:03:40 - Joey Knish (Host)
I mean, this is like every person that has a scammer that puts out a big persona brings bags of cash with them to a boxing event and then it's like, oh, the guy's forging checks to get some. It's like, oh, the guy's forging checks to get some. This is always how it is. People have to do so much to show their persona or that they have some level of wealth or something. It always ends up like this. So, yeah, I enjoyed that getting out public quite a bit. 

01:04:14 - Flup (Host)
Didn't Nadeau even call this out like months ago that said, like he Mozzie was banned for like non-winning, but like this far, I think Nadeau called this like perfectly. It was hilarious. 

01:04:27 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I do. I think I remember seeing something like that. I'm sure Nadeau will have the answers. People were like like rebuttaling in the comments on this and the replies this a little bit, but it do stood firm. It's like no, like this is, this is what's going down. So I guess we'll we'll look to do for more information on Mozzie in the detention center. Next one from NFL underscore memes. We have a meme here from March all the way through August. It says I can't wait to watch my team play, but when it comes to September, it's the Donald Trump. It was a video of Donald Trump saying they don't know what the fuck they're doing. You understand that. So, isaac, do you have an NFL team? 

01:05:09 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
I know Flopson finishes. I don't have an NFL team, although I will say my grandfather his entire life was a big Jets fan and there was nothing that conditioned me that like sports are pure pain than just what he was a Jets and a Mets fan. He passed away a few years ago but yeah, it was a life of pure pain and so I can empathize with this a lot. Growing up I was sort of started there and then I quickly switched to be a Yankees fan when I realized they just always lost. 

01:05:42 - Flup (Host)
You are a Jets fan, correct? I felt this meme very close to me because I already tell week three when Justin Fields is going to do something idiotic and the Jets are going to be 0-2, and I'm watching them down 14 in week three and I'm going to be losing my mind. So this hit home to me. I know it's going to happen this year. Um, I'm ready for it, but I still feel that hope of optimism that fields will turn it on and we'll be, you know, 10 and 7 or 11 and 6 and make it to the playoffs. Oh, really, you believe that? I do not believe that. I wouldn't bet on that. I have that optimism inside of me. 

01:06:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Uh, not only my go ahead it is funny one thing I originate really well nfl futures. 

01:06:11 - Flup (Host)
I've shown value on jets to miss the playoffs the last two years, but I never bet on it Go ahead. It is funny. One thing I originate really well NFL futures. I've shown value on Jets to miss the playoffs the last two years, but I never bet on it because I want to root for the Jets. So one thing I don't. I will not bet against the Jets. So it's glad that it's costing me. My fandom is actually costing me money. It's brutal. 

01:06:30 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So you never bet against the Jets? Yeah, for futures. No, I Are you going to bet against? 

01:06:33 - Flup (Host)
the Jets yeah For futures. No, I will bet on some individual games. 

01:06:37 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
I'll say I'm the same thing here with Chris. There are a couple tennis players, in particular Alexander Zverev, who I hate and I'll show value on them and I just refuse to bet on them, and Chris is always taking the other side. 

01:06:49 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I just refuse to bet on him. Not only am I known as the Giant, I'm also a giants fan, so I resonate with this one as well, although I wouldn't say I'm at the point where I can't wait to watch my team play, because every game is going to end like 10-7 for the other team when the giants play, so they're not going to be very fun ones to watch ready for russell wilson. 

01:07:06
He's going to be start cooking, no I, I'm not ready, and if it's not him, then it's like jamis winston yeah, it's gonna be. Uh, it's gonna be a fun year. Uh, kanish, you spent many years perhaps feeling like this, but uh, you're on the other side of it. 

01:07:20 - Joey Knish (Host)
You're looking forward to detroit lions football we made it through baby also this was a classic trump soundbite, I mean I know hashtag joey lived it up like god damn it. He has some great fucking clips like over the year like you know if you go through like a trump montage of, like, some of the greatest bits. Like that one will be on it and uh, man, that was, that was solid uh. 

01:07:42 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Next one up here we have what uh grant nephier at g nephier 07 describes as the least intelligent conversation uh, they've ever seen, or one of at least. Uh, so here's a conversation. It's from katie gonzalez and at one, lashim says I honestly think fan duel should be held accountable for not voiding bets when players get injured. The amount of money they make off that alone is insane. Uh, reply is and they, and they immediately stop the cash out when the injury occurs. Shake my head yep, because I was gonna cash out but it blocked me. 

01:08:14
You know, I was thinking about this yesterday. I had money on ace bailey to go six overall and then when he got selected fifth overall, I went to go cash out my bet but they didn't let me. I didn't really understand what was going on. Hashtag scam duel uh, anyways, grant nephew says one people bet unders on players and occasionally some books lose money because of player injuries. Why would books let you cash out a losing bet? Yeah, that's pretty much it. If the bet's going to lose, they're not just going to let you have your money back on that one. Anyone with something to add on this? 

01:08:47 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Yeah, I'll say first thing, shout out I think it was Rob and Kirk came up with this a couple months ago which is the idea that sportsbooks should just allow you to pay a couple extra cents to be able to void If your player prop gets injured. I think like genius. I'm surprised I know fanatics has kind of made this their thing that they void those bets, but I'm shocked that you haven't seen. You know fan dealer, draft Kings. You know you bet. You bet it at minus 110. They give you minus 115, but it voids instead. It seemed like it'd be a big moneymaker. 

01:09:16
But I'm pretty torn on this because on the one hand, it's like, yeah, you know, these people are your competition is betters, and so it's kind of great that they just clearly don't know what they're doing. But on the other hand, it's I think it's just so sad. You're like Jesus. You think about all of the people who are doing this who just have no idea what they're doing. They're never going to win, they're never even going to understand this and it's like it's pretty bad, pretty bad. 

01:09:42 - Flup (Host)
I think Jeff Benton said something about this like a year or two ago, where he was like this was like back when I think FanDuel and DraftKings were pretty regularly voting these kinds of things, and he said this is opening a slippery slope where people are going to keep asking and keep asking. And that's exactly what's happened. Like, if all these books start voiding everything like this, then what's going to happen is well, what if you get injured in the fourth quarter, like an NFL game or an NBA game? Do you avoid there? What if they just play bad throughout the whole game? Like, do they void there? I remember a distinct game where, like, mahomes was throwing up the night before but still played and played horribly. Do you avoid that? It's just like it comes down to you can bet the opposite side. I mean, I, I really do. That's it. I forgot about that isaac, but that's a great suggestion from robin kirk. Add, like a uh, injury insurance button. 

01:10:31 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That's just brilliant, it'll be negative ev and people won't be able to complain because you could have gotten your injury Exactly. 

01:10:39 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Dude, all I'll say is that I had a was it Jahan or Jahan? Dotson first touchdown in this last Super Bowl. I don't know if people remember that I was messaging my VIP host immediately to try to get that bet voided. I mean that was criminal that I missed that. He's a guy like fell into the end zone but didn't score that bet voided. 

01:10:56 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I mean that was criminal that I missed that guy like fell into the end zone but didn't score. Uh, last one we have for the chopping block? Uh, akash at yzr underscore fantasy shared this one and said contender for greatest tweet of all time. It was emmanuel acho who said legacy formula championships won, divided by teams played for equals player legacy. Um, so taking a little bit of a shot at kevin durant there with it um, just like a stupid thing to tweet, I think first of all. But kevin durant himself, with a fantastic response, says according to the great kevin durant's legacy formula that was created in the best labs at mit, emmanuel is the worst linebacker of all time. You sure you want to listen to this guy about greatness? Um, man can. Is anyone else like the same boat? 

01:11:42 - Flup (Host)
I cannot fucking stand emmanuel acho like the nut low and conveniently left michael jordan off the list because he played for the wizards and that would have made him a three, so so the whole thing would not have blown up. It's just that formula was idiotic, and I think Kevin Durant has a lot of like kind of bitchy tweets that are like look bad, but this was truly all time. This was just excellent. He did it at the right person. It was great. 

01:12:12 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
I'm a huge KD tweets fan. I like all of them, even the bitchy ones. 

01:12:16 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I I fucking love it the only ones that I think kind of push over the edge, like maybe a little bit, is when people are like complaining about betting and or people are complaining like sorry, you lost your parlay, like uh, or something like that, like oh, you do, or not even sorry, like you lost your parlay and you're mad about it, you have a problem, something like that. Just, I don't know, they're bringing the gambling into it. It's kind of like maybe those are. 

01:12:39 - Isaac Rose-Berman (Host)
Those are the best ones, because the people always bring up the gambling first and then you have katie responding being like dude. If you're gonna be so upset, stop gambling, which he's right about he's right it's just. 

01:12:49 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
It's a player who is victory lapping, essentially them hitting their unders, which just kind of fair enough. Something about that doesn't sit with me. Obviously he doesn't care about it during the game, it's just the commenting on it, I don't know. Just that is where it goes. But yes, I do enjoy the katie interactions on twitter, but it is kind of weird that like he's always online, like he is very chronically online for for an athlete, maybe this is the new thing I got on Nacho. 

01:13:18 - Joey Knish (Host)
I used to watch the Bachelor and then, when the great host they had got fired for saying something, they replaced him with others and he was fucking terrible. I think he did one season and got me out of the series forever. So yeah, no, brutal, brutal as he was on Twitter, he was not much better as a host of that. 

01:13:35 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
What about, as a linebacker, anybody? 

01:13:39 - Flup (Host)
know His stats are horrible. 

01:13:41 - Joey Knish (Host)
I was going to say I don't think his career was quite horrible at all. 

01:13:46 - Flup (Host)
I think he played like a few games and had like a couple tackles and that was it. Or maybe he didn't even play in the games. I looked it up once and I was like oh, this guy's a nobody, all right. 

01:14:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Well, there we go. That'll end off the show. Thank you so much, everybody, for tuning into another circle back episode. If you did enjoy, please remember to hit that like button, subscribe to the channel to help us on the road to 20 000 subs and we'll see you again next time. On tuesday. We're back with that crew for more content, just like this.