00:00 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Disclaimer the content presented in this show is intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any individuals or organizations mentioned. Statements made about public figures or entities are based on publicly available information and are not intended to harm or defame any person or business. This show relies on fair use of social media posts, which are presented in good faith for the purpose of commentary and criticism. Viewers and listeners are advised to form their own opinions. 

00:49 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
This is Circle Back right here on the Circles Off YouTube channel, part of the Hammer Betting Network and presented by Underdog. This is the show where we review the week that was in gambling Twitter and, with the NFL draft taking place last week, it was a very eventful one. We're going to get to a bunch of topics on today's show, back to the regular crew, but before we do, I do want to remind you we are presented by Underdog. If you haven't had a chance to check out Underdog just yet, this is a great time to do so. We got NBA playoffs going on, we got NHL playoffs going on, we got a great deposit match offer on Underdog for you, and with every single night there is a gimme pick, and these are designed for you to win in the early going Luka Doncic higher than a half point. Steph Curry higher than a half point. These are easy ways to build your bankroll at Underdog, so make sure that you do check them out the link is in the description below and use promo code CIRCLES to take advantage of that offer. Once again, promo code CIRCLES. Link in the description below. 

01:50
I'm Rob Pizzola. Kirk Evans, back to my left, looking a little bit more tan the last time I saw you. I don't know what's up with that. 

01:57 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
All the comments were how pale I was, so I had to go to Mexico to get a little bit of color there you go Looking good, jeff Feinberg, rocking a vintage Super Bowl jacket right there. 

02:07 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It's a good one. It's a little windbreaker. Yeah, it's windbreaker season. 

02:12 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It's like shorts and hoodie season. Yeah, one of my favorite times of year, this and right before football or football starting. Have you been out golfing yet? 

02:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No, my course just opened on friday. Um, no, no, no. I'm just wondering if you do, if you're rocking the shorts early in the year. 

02:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
You do the long pants. I pretty much only golf in shorts. If I have to wear pants, I don't want to golf yeah I mean, that's, that's it. If you have to put on pants, you're not going to play yeah, like if it's cold enough where I'm not comfortable in like shorts and a long top, even yes, then it's just like I'll just find another day. And the same goes if it's too fucking hot, this polar bear ain't playing. 

02:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yes, like I got no interest? 

02:55 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I don't know. I got no interest. We've got golf season's too short in Toronto. I agree, have such strict rules. I golfed in pants last week. I'm a delicate flower. 

03:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, it's tough. I'll tell you who's not a delicate flower. That's Jacob. Saw him at Metallica last week. He's rocking the Metallica shirt. I've lost my voice. I'm trying to get through it, Jacob. How are things? 

03:18 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Good, yeah, I've been a bit sick and I may have broken a toe, but soldiering on, you may have broken a toe, but soldiering on, you may have broken a toe. Yeah, at Muay Thai. Doing martial arts. 

03:30 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It's part of the boxing training phenomenon that's going on. 

03:34 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Elf get ready. 

03:35 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
It was okay and then I played soccer with it and got stepped on that one toe and it got worse. By the way, I need to address I haven't done my GRP meal yet because I need it to be selected first. 

03:47 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I have some ideas Still thinking through that. 

03:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I'm not ducking it. I don't want people to think I'm ducking it. 

03:52 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, no, jacob wouldn't duck it, jason would duck it. Jacob wouldn't duck it, he definitely wouldn't. 

03:57 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Elf doesn't know, we're like grooming hammer we have. 

04:06 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
We have like we've got a lot of fighters. We do have a lot of fighters like johnny. I mean johnny hasn't been on circles often forever, but johnny's trained boxing for a few years. I he would rock any of these guys. Jason has been doing uh, he does some sort of martial arts. 

04:15 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
He does muay thai as well, muay thai yeah I don't do anything, I wouldn't be too worried about jason yeah, I don't get other people to fight on my behalf. 

04:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I take. 

04:25 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Jacob over Jason. Jacob would throttle someone. 

04:29 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
People don't understand that. I mean, jacob was nicknamed the giant once because he sat in a chair next to me. People are like, wow, this guy's frigging enormous. He's really not that big, but Jacob would end something. 

04:41 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, but he's got some brick shithouse vibes. 

04:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Oh absolutely. 

04:44 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Even though he's not that big I weigh heavier than I look. 

04:48 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Like we're going to talk about one gorilla versus 100 men a little bit later in the show. If Jacob is one of those 100 men, it would move the odds just slightly. 

04:55 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
And if Jason was one of them. It's not moving, he's dead quick. If it's us three in that pit, I'll tell you we're in trouble. 

05:03 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, shift the odds there. Anyways, let's get into it. Nfl draft. Fill us in here, Jacob. 

05:11 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Well, obviously the big story for the NFL draft is Shadurah Sanders. He opened as the favorite to go first overall and he ended up going 144th overall, leading into the draft. From what I saw, his over-under was set at 21.5. 21 was where Pittsburgh was drafting. They needed a quarterback, so kind of thought that would be maybe the cutoff and if not, he'd slip further and further. Nobody saw 144 coming. 

05:34
It prompted people like Brandon at BRNDXIX to say I'm not going to read the full quote here, but it says Was Jadaris Sanders reciting a certain book that was written by a certain individual that was a prisoner of war during the First World War? Was Shadur Sanders reciting this book in those pre-draft interviews? Big one to open with John B here. I'm not going to read that King Von Berner says oh, king Von Berner, sorry I'm not a Shadur Sanders fan, but what just happened is straight up racism, bro. And the football grump football underscore grump says, I quote, tweeted Shadur Sanders who said I'm built for whatever today may bring. And the football grump quoted what about tomorrow? Yes, nobody was expecting that, but people had a lot to say. Rob, kind of overarching over everything, said every NFL team passed on Shadur Sanders through four rounds, but random dudes on Twitter still think they know better. Incredible how people who can't even win a fantasy league believe they're smarter than 32 front offices. 

06:41
Obviously, mel Kuyper was a guy who was really beefing up Shredder Sanders. Heading into the draft treated him like he was maybe the next coming of Jesus Christ. Whatever it was, mel Kuyper was big on Shredder Sanders and crashed out as he fell to 144. Dlo underscore 77 posted this here. It was a video clip of Reese Davis putting Mel Kuyper in a body bag over Shredder Sanders. Jack Mack quote tweeted saying here's Mel's crash out. Reese Davis had enough of his shit. Kuyper bringing up the NFL. Can't evaluate QBs for 50 years. Like he didn't say Jimmy Clawson would be the second coming of Christ. Let's talk about that Before we get to the prank call stuff. Let's talk about Sanders falling. Rob, you were in touch with the market. You saw the possibility of Sanders falling, but surely not this far. 

07:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I didn't bet a lot on this year's NFL draft. One of the positions was Sanders' overs and they were at very different numbers. I think, like I bet on the NFL, people know that I, if you're serious at betting on the NFL, you have people who you trust for information, especially over the course of a season. Somebody might reach out to you and be like, hey, you know, this quarterback's more hurt than he appears very in tune with the team, has connections. And leading up to the draft there were a lot of people that were messaging me saying, like sanders interviews have not gone well. Um, you know teams that have sent scouts to watch him practice. He has not been practicing at all. 

08:10
So like there's there's so many things that that come up that are just like it's more than just the talent. And you know, the racism stuff really bothers me. I listen, I'm not gonna see, I'm not gonna pretend like there's not racism in the world. There's tons of racism in the world. I completely get it. 

08:27
But when it comes to some sort of conspiracy theory, it's like this effort for all of these teams to not draft NFL teams will do everything possible to produce a winner. If they think you are going to win for them. They will brush rape allegations under the rug, beating sexual assault, whatever. This has happened for years. So if there was a team out there that wanted Sanders and thought he is going to help them win, they would draft him. There is no concerted effort to just not draft this guy. Likely, what happened here is that the public is not privy to a lot of things that are happening behind the scenes. But it's more than just talent. It's coachability, it's personality. There's so much that comes with it. So I did not expect him to fall. I'm not gonna pretend. I expect him to fall to the fifth round. But there was a lot of red flags that these teams had and every single team saw the same thing. So for everyone out there to be like, oh, this is insane. It's like front offices will do what. 

09:33 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
There's so many resources in these front offices, they will do whatever they can to get an edge yeah, I like that you said the conspiracy bit, because we live in very much a time of conspiracy, so it makes sense to me that everyone runs to a Massive conspiracy about this, even though you have to jump through crazy mental hurdles to for it to make any sense. But why would they conspire? 

09:55 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
it doesn't make any sense of people are conspiring the line between Conspiracy and consensus here is actually fucking enormous. Conspiracy and consensus here is actually fucking enormous. Right, like it was a consensus among the whole goddamn league. Right, that treats their draft boards better than they treat their first born children. Right, like they're. They're hidden from people even within the organization who have pretty good jobs in the organization aren't even pretty privy to these draft boards. The racism conspiracy stuff is so fucking tilting because that there's one place you said it, rob racism exists. There's one place on earth. I promise you racism doesn't exist. The 2025 nfl draft right, like caleb williams could have probably done a lot of the stuff Shador did. Right, and still gone where he went. Like you don't play by the same rules when your traits are backup or borderline backup, right, and then it becomes like okay, you're backup and it's like a distraction thing, and then like it's just layer on layer on layer, but there was a consensus. 

11:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
A hundred percent. Everyone, everyone agreed, every single team agreed he wasn't worth the pick in the first round or the second or the third or the fourth. Now, listen, I, I'm not a college football. What really gets me is the college football hardos. This bothers me every year when it comes to draft time. Right, it's like I watch this guy play in in college. He's going to be amazing. 

11:23
It's like what are your credentials to be a scout like this is not your. Yeah, you watch college football. You bet on college football. That's great, unless you're actually beating that sport for tons of money and you have, like some sort of insight that these teams don't have. I, I don't get it. But listen, I, I understand. Like, especially around draft time, you get falls every year not quite to this extent and a lot of like the public boards that are out there. They're produced by, you know, national writers beat writers. Lots of these guys are just copying one another when it comes to creating boards, and mock drafts Like this creates this sense of he has to be a first round pick and the reality is that teams do things very differently and the public is not privy to how these teams are evaluating, especially the quarterbacks. 

12:14 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
And, like you said, all the public stuff is out there, all the private teams. One, they have way more employees and take way more time to evaluate these players, but they also don't know what other teams' boards are. Yet still, all 32 teams came to this conclusion that he should drop to the fifth round. It doesn't necessarily mean they're right, shadour could be better 100%. 

12:35 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He could be the best quarterback in the draft class and could be one of the greatest fifth round picks in the history of the league. Now, even if he's a marginal starter, he's an incredible value pick, like be the 20th best starter in the league. Fifth round overachieved yes, oh, easily. 

12:52 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Right, but the teams came to the same conclusion, right. That's just what happened, exactly, and it's not even against the father. 

12:59 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I mean, yes, this father is different. There's lots of crazy fathers. The only way the father was involved here was it allowed for the kid to be fucking protected. The media is culpable in this. This is the craziest draft slide since Brent Feinsod went undrafted in the NBA. 

13:17
I've seen nothing like this, nothing. But the media is culpable. They are. They hold a huge part of the responsibility for what happened. I don't know whether, because I say that in the sense that in the days leading up, things that people were hearing for weeks and months were then starting to come up. And what happened when some of the truth about Shadour and that process got out there. People like Kyle Brandt freak out on TV. People go even before the draft, freak out and say it's unacceptable that you say this. You have to put a name on it. No, you don't, no, no, you don't. You want the truth from someone, so you have to grant them that anonymity. Yep, did I do that? 

13:58 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Anonymity. It's okay, it's okay, it's not as bad as library. 

14:02 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Okay, and the culpability of it. And for Mel Kiper who, like, unlike real GMs where I can't even see their draft board so like yes, they might have fucked up their first rounders I don't know who they had right behind, like I don't. There is just so much ammo on this guy. I love Mel. I grew up watching the draft literally rob two days, that whole fucking day. Yeah, as a kid like I love it. Now, mel kuiper, you can make a case in his contribution to the growth of football. Yeah, might even be worthy of like a small mention in the hall of fame, just into how we like an aspect of the league that has changed and he was a leader of it, right, but I mean the receipts that this guy has a failure as anyone, everyone will. Who cosplays gm for 40 years? Yes, the chargers took him forrest lamp. He hasn't had him ahead of patrick mahomes, right, yeah? 

14:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
yeah I mean so so you have jimmy clausen thing was huge. He said he would literally like retire from broadcasting if jimmy Clawson wasn't an elite quarterback. 

15:05 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, so he said, if he's not an elite quarterback like eight years, he'll retire. 

15:08 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
The level of culpability and like people were afraid to like piss off the family or friends of the family. And I get it. Like Dion worked at NFL Network for a fucking decade that place existed. We were in college like watching Dion do NFL Network with Rich Eisen and his cronies, like he's got friends everywhere. Yes, and they protected him. I'm going to go off the reservation a bit here. And I haven't seen anyone else do it and I'm not a conspiracy guy. 

15:40 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
This was not a conspiracy. 

15:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
But you know what this reeked of this was not a conspiracy, but do you know what this reeked of the NFL, the draft pundits? 

15:47 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
it reeked of the protection of Joe Biden, it actually crossed my mind when you were saying it. 

15:57 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
There was, like something else is happening here other than the truth, and some of you actually know the truth and don't want to piss off daddy. 

16:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't even know where to go from that but like, how off base is that? 

16:08 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
like, like the people knew and sometimes they were afraid to report it because when they saw people reporting the truth they got fucking railroaded. 

16:18 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
What are you? I'm confused you're talking about here now. 

16:21 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He said that that joe biden's's son no, the cover-up of the mainstream media towards joe biden and his mental acuity? Yes oh was like, okay, was reminiscent of shador's draft stock I could. 

16:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I could buy the comparison like I don't know if it's true or not. I don't. I don't know how privy a lot of the writers were to the possibility of Sanders falling, like I'm not saying fifth round like no, like no one thought fifth round like no one. Some teams might have definitely teams had him that low on the draft board where they were. They were not going to draft him. Potentially. 

16:55 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I, I don't know. I feel like for all teams to have them this low. There has to have been a bunch of people in the media who were sitting on stuff, because I'll tell you there were bettors who knew, because if you follow the betting market on Sanders, I understand your Schragers, your Rapoports, your Palaceros. 

17:14 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yes, they're national reporters. They're not draft insiders, but in the lead up to the draft they're not like scouts, but in the lead up to the draft, when they have all this sourcing around the league and know this movement, that movement, this guy rising, that guy rising, they still cosplayed for the fucking kid Right. 

17:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So like I think back to. So I had this back and forth with Hagrin Hagrin NFL on Twitter. Hagrin is a very sharp individual kind of someone I've wanted to have on the channel for a long time but haven't been able to get him on. But about a month ago there was a lot of reports that started circulating about Sanders dropping and he kind of tweeted out I'm not buying it. I think this is clickbait type of scenario to which I responded. Now at that point I had people who had messaged me saying like hey, sanders might like really drop here and I responded I don't think he's going to get out of the first round like some people are reporting, but I do buy he could end up being a late first rounder. 

18:12
I think there were signs that were there but ultimately it kind of just got buried. I don't know why as we got closer and closer, like Kuyper's crash out here is like he's like legitimately caught off guard that first and foremost, it's completely arrogant for him to think that, like his draft board is gospel and the fact that NFL teams didn't see eye to eye on his evaluation of a prospect I've never seen. This was actually cringeworthy for me to watch over the court. Every time they cut back to Kuyper and he was going, I'm like give it a fucking rest, dude. Like he's just getting more and more angry and like something's going on. It was embarrassing for me to watch but, like the fallout of this happening. 

18:58 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I think he like, I just think it is embarrassing, he had him fifth right, fifth overall. 

19:04 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yes. 

19:04 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Like I feel like it was more so a thing of Kuyper was just getting more and more embarrassed that his draft board best on the board is up, the fifth best player is up and the fifth round is starting. I feel like the more embarrassed he got kind of the more defensive he got. Yes, I don't know. 

19:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It was incredibly odd. 

19:21 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It was a tough scene. It was a tough scene. It was a tough scene for Mel, for him to crash out that hard and even for Mel to be that unaware, unprepared for the distinct possibility of it happening is, as I guess, there was consensus, but in that consensus it's amazing that he was allowed to stay near the top of the conversation for so long, when the consensus seems so consistent. 

19:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I've watched these panels for years on NFL draft and not even just NFL draft. Think about every sporting event. You typically have some. You see disagreements every now and then. But for Rhys Davis to have to step in at some point and be like dude, enough is enough. Like he, literally I'm done with this conversation and reese had to let him know. 

20:13 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
No one's batting a thousand at this table, mel, yes, so like there's your, your. It's not fair how many mail receipts there are, right, because, like we say, a real gm, we don't know what their actual mock or draft board is Everyone's going to get stuff wrong. 

20:27 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's just the nature. And just like some person who knows fuck all about the NFL probably thought Patrick Mahomes should be a high pick and the victory lapped that forever. That's just the nature. 

20:37 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Scouting. It's like hitting in baseball, Like you could be a Hall of Famer and still hit it. 31% yes. 

20:47 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But literally these are the future of NFL teams. They will exhaust all of the resources that they have to making great probabilities on these players. And to me the Kuiper ego just was way, way overblown in that one. 

21:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
So for Sanders it got maybe a little bit worse. On day one of the draft, when this is I mean, everyone's seen this at this point there was a prank call to Sanders that got through to Sanders. There's a video of it here that was posted by IM underscore John W, and it reads the fact that it was some Ole Miss frat guys on the other end of the Shadurah Sanders prank call is nasty work. This was a shared video and yeah, it's a video of some looks like some Ole Miss students who got a hold of Sanders' phone and here's a quote that was from the phone call. They pose as the New Orleans Saints front office. They said to the guy said he's the GM of the Saints, we're going to take you with the next pick. Man Shredder said it's going to be legendary. And then the caller said you're going to have to wait a little bit longer actually and hung up so obviously like maybe the biggest day of these people's lives that they're toying with here. But people were enjoying the kind of downfall for Sanders and it appears that it was actually the son of the defensive coordinator of the Atlanta Falcons, jeff Ulbrich. And the reason they had the phone number of Shooter Sanders is because the son actually saw the phone number on an open iPad. At least that's reported here by the Atlanta Falcons, who apologized for it. 

22:24
Don't condone the behavior, all that, but more reports are coming out that this wasn't the only prank call. In fact there's been more since I added this to the slides as well. Schultz underscore report says that Penn State Titan Tyler Warren was also the victim of a prank call over the course of the draft. So we'll hand it over. I mean, I think, jeffff, you had a pretty strong opinion on on the prank calls and everything here. We'll start off with you. What do you think on the, the prank calls? What do you think the punishment should be? 

22:54 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I thought, listen, it's. I didn't even. I'm maybe one of the only people who loves football. I won't even. I have not watched the sanders video, when I I know what the? 

23:03
headline is I don't even want to see it, it's like that hurtful and painful that when I know what's coming, I got no interest. It's no different, although not the same, being treated like the same. You know a kid's about to get bullied on an internet video. I'm not watching that. I'm not watching that. I feel too hard inside. 

23:21
That being said, I think the reaction from you know, like matthew berry and some other peoples, was a little over the top. If we just the sanctity of the draft is like holy to me, right, I am one of those people. That being said, if we like, just take ourselves 500 yards above our nfl bubble. It was a frat kid prank calling. Another college kid mean-spirited, and no doubt that old brick kid holy shit. We've seen your dad's face. When Aaron Rodgers throws a Steve Nash bounce pass, angry dad, holy shit, the belt, the buckle. As far as I'm concerned, justice has probably been served in the Ulbricht house, but in the end, as a prank call, we were from a time where we didn't have YouTube to entertain us all day. You'd go to a friend's house, did some really dumb shit, and that extended into college. So maybe I got a little sympathy. It's cringe. I feel bad for shador, but I think people are like overblowing what happened a bit. 

24:34 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, I, I think I agree with you like I think the kid he's 21, but like massive piece of shit move, yeah, just about. 

24:43 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
And you fuck over your dad, yeah exactly Just such a shitty, shitty move. 

24:49 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Like Shador also like okay, I don't know where did Tyler Warren go. I think 14th. 

24:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
This happened last year to Cooper Dejean. It also happened to him where he was dropping. It's happened to many players over the years, Like this isn't the first incident. It just is very much in the spotlight now because of the fall that Sanders had. 

25:07 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Exactly. To me, it's way worse to do it to Shador, who's just like actually in one of the biggest falls in NFL draft history. So, yeah, just a total piece of shit move, but like people saying the statement wasn't strong enough or they should lose a pick, like I can see how this happened. You know, we also live in like the clout economy and it's classic that a 21 year old kid, you know, wanted some clout. I guess, like he probably gave it to his friends because that wasn't him on the video, right? 

25:36 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
apparently one of them might have been. 

25:38 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I have no idea but, I thought it was pretty like and maybe I'm wrong when I saw the statement the fact that they said the kid's actual full name I thought was not harsh. I think that's what they should have done, but I think that's like a pretty big punishment. Now everyone knows this 21 year old kid's name and what a dumb thing he did. But the idea that the team should be punished, I think is just kind of way overboard, despite it being just total piece of shit move. 

26:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So it's childish, for sure that I think we we can all agree on that. Like I, I have made prank calls in my life before. I've definitely prank called uh, pizza, pizza. And, like you know, I've done all sorts of dumb shit when I was younger. Granted, I wasn't 21, but I've done stuff like this. You know, maybe pick a guy that isn't living out the most stressful day of his entire life, but they didn't know that then no, but either way the draft. For these guys it's like the most stressful day of their life. 

26:33 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
When you say, pick another guy, like you should have picked a different guy on the list. 

26:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No, I'm not saying that. 

26:37 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Or called the pizzeria. 

26:39 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Maybe the draft is where I'm going to draw the line of. 

26:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I'm not gonna call an athlete and okay, but in the I'm not defending it. Yeah, it's a, it's a, I don't defend it. Yes, it was a bad look. Yes, and that kid fucked his dad over so hard and I couldn't even fathom screwing my dad over in like a business real world sense putting his job at risk right. 

27:02
Like you know, crashing his car was enough yeah yep but those kids are like, oh, this kid's gonna be a first rounder, like look at him, he's having his own draft party. Like if anyone could swallow this, take this, it's it. And then boom goes the dynamite just unfortunate series of events, I would say and more has come out like, apparently, guys who are like fully expected to go, for the most part the league gets them burners, yeah Right, and it's like a dedicated number. 

27:30
So it's obviously a dedicated list and number, all right, and like you know that's real because like there's the sanctity of it's, like not even your real phone, like this was the phone the nfl provided me for today and I got prank called. 

27:49 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I will say, obviously the vast majority of the ownership comes on jack's albrecht. The son, jeff albrecht has some you, you, you, if you are privy to sensitive info, if you have sensitive information, I'm sorry you can't leave a ipad open on your house with people, but that might be the the story. They told. 

28:04 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
That may not necessarily be exactly what happened. If you have sensitive information, I'm sorry you can't leave an iPad open on your house with people's photos. That might be the story they told. 

28:08 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
That may not necessarily be exactly what happened, true? Maybe that's that line of Falcons. 

28:11 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Assuming the story is, true. 

28:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Good thing Pete Hegseth isn't an NFL GM. I make fun of both people. Don't just come at me. 

28:20 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
But to me, what's the coordinator's name? Jeff Albrecht. Jeff Albrecht, I feel like there's probably every defensive coordinator. Leaves shit open in their house. Possibly he deserves more criticism for raising a piece of shit. Kid, yes, yes, it's his iPad. 

28:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
The kid went on it to order some DoorDash. He saw the list. Cloud Economy obviously picked the number that would gain it and if Shador goes 14th it's like the biggest nothing that ever happened, but it just became part of this huge. People message me they don't even like football asking me about it. 

29:03 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Do we all agree that the team most definitely should not be disciplined Like I think it's? Insane for the team calling like people calling for the team to lose picks. 

29:14 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, that's way overboard. 

29:17 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's why I kind of was weirded out by those Matthew Berries, like the people with that sentiment that this isn't enough I will say if you, if you watch, if you haven't watched the video, I'm sure in your head you could formulate when you do watch it and you understand the slide that sanders took it's a. It's hard to watch, so I can understand the people who are coming from it with a perspective of like, throw the book at that, like it's, it's pretty, like it's kind of it's disgusting, really is like at the end of the day and listen. 

29:49
I again like this comes to someone who it's just really as a human. You see another human get treated that way. 

29:55 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It's hard to watch, but people acting like someone's prank calling me right now to tell me my kids like being rushed to the hospital. Yeah, like, I don't like, like I don't think that's the reaction is also fair to the crime yeah, well to me also like if it was the defensive coordinator, yeah, who prank called chador. Okay, fine then maybe punish them by losing. 

30:18 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
It's the kid like I know exactly it's just like sometimes things are unfortunate, yeah, and the kid did something shitty, but like, at the end of the day, the punishment. There's not really a good framework for how someone should be punished for this. 

30:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
And I agree with what you said. I think the NFL needs to create that framework. 

30:34 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I'm sure that they will going forward Maybe just beef up the security and people will be more aware. 

30:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Now that I'm thinking about this, you've got to find ins like moles, in the sense where if I own the Saints, obviously now this kid's on lockdown but I pay off people to be friends with the 21-year-old kids of defensive coordinators and then get into that house and you're spying from another country. Get that shit. You're not wrong in a defensive, offensive coordinator's house like this. Shit's just out and, god forbid, your kids are the ones that are gonna be the people that railroad you. But I have no doubt that game plans are accessible to every son of every team. If they wanted to snarf their father's drawer like top drawer, yeah for sure. 

31:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'm curious in the comment section down below, let us know what you think about the Sanders situation and the prank call. Specifically, I'm curious what the sentiment is on whether or not people think that there should be punishment, because I think there's a very wide range of opinions on this. 

31:43 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
When the dads are here's the other part. When the dads are at home, the boomer coordinators at home, he might not even be good enough with technology. They actually need their kids to facilitate them being able to start working from home. 

31:56 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
It's true. Last thing from the draft we'll discuss came from the new Jaguars GM, james Gladstone, who, well, it would have been a big story if Sanders hadn't fallen so far, but it kind of got hidden underneath all of that. But they traded it up to get Travis Hunter with the second overall pick, shelled out a ton of picks in order to make it happen, and then, in media availability, at a press conference, he was asked about the draft strategy and essentially was just victory lapping the fact that they had traded all these other picks and assets to move up in the draft. They were victory lapping it because they got Travis Hunter, which some people have criticized. What did you think, rob? 

32:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think so I generally root for a lot of the younger front office guys in sports. I love when McVay got hired as a head coach. He he's my age, I think, now in his late 30s. James Gladstone, I believe when he got hired was 34, I think was the story he's young. I like when teams like ageism is kind of a thing in sports Experience is talked about a lot. I like when teams take chances. 

33:03
This one was tough to watch. Like sometimes less is more. You know what I'm saying. Like be excited about your pick. You don't need to go into this long rant, you don't need to give a ted talk on challenging boundaries and sports and like it was it? This to me was it was almost like this guy. I I felt like I was listening to AI like a chat GPT response. It was so non-human that I'm gonna say cringe worthy a lot today, because a lot of cringe worthy things happened this week. I was cringing man. I watched this. I'm like, oh, it's gonna be tough to to root for this guy. Um, yeah, they moved up, they got the player that they wanted. It's as simple as that. Like you could say that in fact, we really wanted travis hunter. We thought we made a great, great pick. 

33:49 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Do not give me like the entire life story um, so I I wasn't personally a huge fan of this yeah, I think I've kind of changed my tune a little on like trading up, trading down, because it's kind of like an efficient market, yeah, type question of like yes, generally, if you're trading up, trading down because it's kind of like an efficient market. Type question of like yes, generally, if you're trading up, especially like this, you're going to lose a ton of value. But also you know you're hired to be the GM of an NFL team. Like you should believe that you're better than just the general market. Because if you're not, why are you the GM? So like I saw a lot of people on them and I get like you have to be willing to take chances. But at the same time, this is his first draft. Yeah, he's 34. He hasn't really done anything to earn like trust here so this is a big swing. 

34:40
And if he gets this wrong, like he gets fired 34, like he could never be a gm again for sure. So this is a big swing. I'm interested to see how it goes. I would bet that it goes bad for them. But like I do have a little bit of a problem of this, like, oh, you trade it up. Look at the draft chart, look how much value you lost like just like what? 

34:59
like sure you you lost value in a vacuum if this pick was equal to all picks ever? But like you also have to believe you're better at evaluating than other teams, because if you're not, then like why don't you just take like the consensus draft board? So it kind of pissed me off that everyone goes to Twitter and shits on people for that, but at the same time this guy earned zero equity and came off like a bit of an idiot. So yeah, we'll see where it goes. 

35:30 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, I just like locally. 

35:31
I got like dubious vibes a bit quickly from that A lot of GEGM You've got to. You're absolutely right, because it isn't. In many ways the draft is a total inefficient market, like it's proven it is. So there's nothing consistent or efficient about where the success of the players go off the board. Sure, so, like, if you have conviction that this guy is going to be an all-time player, then sure you trade extra picks. And if you're the GM, you're smarter than most people you're speaking to. Like I appreciate that conviction. It was all just this profound commentary of the changing boundaries. That's where it got me and I get it. It's cool. 

36:18
Make the Otani comparisons. I don't think those are illegitimate. They might prove to be insane. But get the fan base excited, got this guy. But when you are like pretty much he's almost like talking shit to like other GMs. 

36:35 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
It reminds me of Nico Harrison on the Mavericks after they traded for Doncic, where it's just. They kind of were just smug about it and they were like kind of laughing about how much people disliked the move. 

36:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
But at least locally this has gone over and I don't know if he could have pulled this off in different markets. But good for I don't know just crazy talk. 

36:56 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I just thought it was very over the top Almost like wrestling promo-ish over the top where he went into this spiel. That and that's just my opinion. I found it, and maybe I'm a very smug and arrogant person as well, so it's hypocritical, but I found it to be extremely smug and arrogant. 

37:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Smug and arrogant and I'll give him the slightest benefit of the doubt is he is 34. He just pulled off this huge blockbuster trade. It's exhilarating. He is probably like the endorphins yes, running through his fucking body. 

37:29
He hasn't done the dog and pony show before and the mic is put in front of him. The local media is excited and he just went off. But you said it's like you have to be a bit humble, and if you not humble, you at least have to have the equity of like having pulled off some magic in a draft before. 

37:48 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, and end of the day, like no one's going to remember what he said if it works out and if it doesn't work out, he's in a lot of trouble. But just back to what you said about, like these young GMs, because you bring up Dubas made me think of this point. Like, made me think of this point. Like, just because someone's a young GM doesn't mean they're smart or even analytical. I thought Dubas was like the most overrated analytics guy, super genius of all time. Like I just didn't think his move. Like the Carolina Panthers Sorry, not the Carolina Panthers, the Florida Panthers. 

38:18 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No, the Carolina. 

38:19 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Hurricanes, Hurricanes. Yeah, you can track their moves and obviously it's not exactly one-to-one correlation, but they're run by a super analytically focused GM and I would say most analytics guys can kind of see that correlation of okay, this is clearly run by a guy who really believes in analytics. I never found that with Dubis. So I just think that just because someone's young and seems to be this up-and-coming whiz kid doesn't really make them what everyone says they are in terms of super analytics-focused. I thought Dubas just never was really an analytics GM. 

38:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You could see that in the final trade deadline he had with Toronto, where he traded for Luke Shen a bunch of guys that were very poor analytic players that had some size. 

39:07 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I apologize for turning it into Leaf Radio, but before we leave Gladstone for a moment, 80% of this is also because he's got a fucking punchable face. 

39:18 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yes, I would agree Like it's just look at like this is a smug guy, right, this is a smugness, yeah. You know that adds to like but you know what? Lots of people have punchable faces. 

39:28 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Sure, but if this was just like some 38-year-old, like fat grinding GM, I don't know that he like. 

39:36 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
It's true it wouldn't have come off as bad yeah. 

39:38 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It's just you know again, he was just on cloud fucking nine. 

39:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Speaking of punchable faces, it's a good transition. 

39:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I don't know if I'd go that far if I were a guy, but we have a full draft segment just for GRP here, because GRP was making rounds on gambling Twitter in the lead up to the draft, mostly for his very, very strong opinions on where Ashton Jeanty was going to get drafted, which ended up working out for him mostly Ginty going up quite high in the draft. But overall on the portfolio George was like he was victory lapping this before the draft even started. George ended up coming out on the wrong side of the bottom line for the draft, ended up losing a little bit of money in the end but showcased again more money going down in Ginty he's a very big Gint of the bottom line for the draft. Ended up losing a little bit of money in the end but showcased again more money going down in G&T he's a very big G&T believer. 

40:33
Putting some offensive rookie offensive player of the year, offensive player of the year. Sorry on him over there We'll see how that goes but showcased his viewing of the draft on his 24-inch TV. I'm beginning to think he says anyway. He says there's my view for the next hour 24-inch TV. I kicked my mom downstairs because my phone doesn't work that well downstairs. Elf Space is in five minutes where he was going to live. React to the picks, but the size of the TV we need to talk about that TV. 

41:03 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's smaller than my monitor, man this is the most Michael Scott. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Pull on them. Yes, that's a classic office. 

41:10 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
But can we like? This is insane. This went fucking. This lit up my group chat, like just getting to see. You know, let's just have a moment of respect here and acknowledge it's not George's house, it is his mother's fucking house. Yes, okay, she's an older woman. She sits at this table, drinks her coffee, looks at her coupons, her magazines and she's watching her little. 

41:38 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
TV. Rest in peace to my grandparents, angelo and Maria. This, if I didn't know, this was a George picture. This looked like their house, like the small TV, that big fork and spoon is like a traditional staple in every like Italian grandparents' house. George is obviously Greek, he's not Italian, but it is. The vibe is just truly hilarious. The vibe is just truly hilarious. Like to watch the draft on a 24-inch TV in the year 2025 is absurd. 

42:14 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, but he's got to go to the Wi-Fi hotspot in the house. That's true, and that's in the kitchen. 

42:23 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Look, not that George is exactly the biggest bettor in the world, but every single one of his bets he could have bought a way nicer TV than this. 

42:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I agree, but he's spending all that money on food every day. 

42:34 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
So he could take pictures. We've already established George is not spending his money to upgrade things in his mom's house, despite him living there. 

42:47 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He's definitely kicked her to the basement. He bought her lottery tickets for Christmas. Like we know, the kind of guy George is when it comes to spending on other people, let's just put it that way? 

42:58 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Did you see like George put out a video, maybe like noon one, two o'clock of draft day. 

43:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah. 

43:06 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Like he looked. Like Like he looked exhausted. 

43:13 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He messaged me, I'm not privy. He's gone away, I think, for a few days. 

43:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I don't know where he went to. He's in Del Mar. Yeah, he said that to me. 

43:21 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He's like I'm like I'm exhausted. 

43:23 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He literally used the word exhausted the video he posted after the draft. This was like a guy that just survived a natural disaster, like the look on his face right wait and how did he end up doing so? 

43:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
he lost 1500 bucks on the draft. He, you know, to jacob's point, he was victory lapping his ev before the draft which, but you know what? 

43:43 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
was it like 17 000. 

43:45 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He thought he got good positions on on a lot of these props, but victory lapping ev I. I draw the line there he was like. 

43:53 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
He was like picking out what car he was going to buy after how well he was going to do on the draft, but he kept saying this is going to be like my last draft bet. 

44:01 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
And then he kept adding more. Then he finally wrote on his sheet that I'm not betting anymore on the nfa. And then he still added plays afterwards like he had to try to remind himself. And then he finally stopped and the bets he would have added afterwards they won well, here's the thing. 

44:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He had amazing positions like off the top, the cam ward first overall, like minus 160, the hunter five to one to be second whoa, his hunter bet. 

44:30 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
His hunter bet was to go to the browns, not to go second overall. He didn't. 

44:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So as soon as the trade, happened he honestly, if the raiders did not pick genti at six he? Was we might have never heard from George again. 

44:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I honestly think that there were a couple people that tweeted like say goodbye to George for the last, because he might not get a chance after tonight. This was before the draft and I didn't know whether that meant he's going to win so much money he's going to leave us or he's going to lose so much. He's going to win so much money he's going to leave us or he's going to lose so much he's going to disappear. 

45:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I do have to say this about George If we go back like six months, he had the tweet about he was playing like some pot limit Omaha. He lost a huge pen and he talked about how it was a certain percentage of his net worth. And then we like backed it up, it was like five grand To his net worth and yeah, backed it was like five grand to his net worth and it. 

45:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, it was like roughly five grand. 

45:27 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
There was more than that, whatever it was regardless life is on the draft he basically had like his entire network worth on the draft like I think maybe somebody needs to step in at some point and be like george, like you know cool someone there's some situations here where you lose everything you realize that someone asked, made that like comment to him, and he replied that like he still had like 8 000 in circa and x amount still in like this betting account. 

45:54 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
So it's a hundred percent of his net worth in betting accounts I don't know what he's, what he's got going on. 

46:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Jeff's gonna find out more when he meets him this summer. 

46:02 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
We're gonna ask him some hard-hitting questions, for sure. Can we get you to wear? 

46:08 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
a GoPro for that. 

46:10 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, no someone's coming. 

46:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
This is going to be a real content operation. I will not be entrusted to make sure it's documented. It will be documented. Oh man, and yes, he's gone away. He went to Del Mar. Documented. Oh man, and yes, he's gone away. He went to del mar. He was bragging that. He got his snake poking stick. Yes, through airport security. 

46:33 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Why would he risk that getting confiscated before? 

46:36 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
before he went on a walk he said he sees like security at the park around, like like I was uh trail, yeah, so he's like hiding his hook in his coat. Yep, I don't think anyone gives a shit. 

46:51 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You know, I will say, with the george draft experience, all of my friends were invested in some way, but it was like a 50 50 split of people rooting for him to win and people rooting for him to lose. And when that trade happened, my group chats were blowing up. 

47:10 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
These are hardcore NFL fans, but their thoughts are to George, not like how the league yeah reverberates through the trade like right away. 

47:19 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Everyone, I mean I think everybody, knew that the Browns going back to five, they're not going to draft a running back in that position. The Browns organization, I mean I would say typically that the Browns going back to five, they're not going to draft a running back in that position. The Browns organization, I mean I would say typically in the past has been pretty savvy. I don't know about this year's draft, that's a different story altogether. But like six was the spot that everybody had their eyes on. He he legitimately would have like he would have lost. 

47:39 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I don't know. 

47:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He kept on rebetting he kept on re-betting. 

47:44 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
He just kept betting. 

47:45 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
The odds got worse and he just kept betting and betting. The worst part about draft betting and I had a great draft, just like advantage stale lines crushed it. But I've gotten into this dangerous habit before, so I learned my lesson. Is you get a tip or you think something's going to happen, and it's fine, you bet that. Is you get a tip or you think something's going to happen, and it's fine, you bet that, yeah. But there is like a domino effect of bets that you then end up making because of, like, the chain reaction you feel this information leads to, and then you just get fucking smoked. 

48:21 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But it's the same as Super Bowl, right? A lot of people make this mistake on Super Bowl. They tie all their props to the same outcome they think is going to happen in the game. I've seen this happen with all my friends years and years Rams, Patriots somebody expects a high-scoring game. They're betting all these player prop overs. You get a low-scoring game. You lose everything. You know you bet one team. You think they're going to blow out the other. They lose. You know like. This is the problem with these types of bets is like you, you, they feel like separate bets, but there there's a lot of correlation. 

48:50 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
As soon as a trade happens in a draft, everything can get fucked, oh man, last year I got killed because I had a lot of people who'd given me amazing information before. I'm not even knocking them like plus ev on the info telling me JJ's going to New England and then the chain reaction of well, he's going to New England and this guy's going here, and this guy's going here. 

49:14 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I really do wish that the draft. I understand why it is the way it is and I don't think we'll ever go back to COVID years where it was the only thing to bet and sportsbooks were taking real bets on it. It I get it. It's information-based market, but I I long for those years again. The draft is such a fun betting experience. I kind of missed it this year because they're just there, weren't like. The good opportunities were really taken out early and you know by the time you get a late opportunity, it's not as big a bet. But congratulations on uh, travis hunter. Number two jeff, I forgot that to you. I told you I went. 

49:51 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
You laid some uh, phasic type juice I well, I got stale on like yes lines that were moving and I, old me, would have put like a decent amount, but you know, you know, sort of it's like no, this is where you have to fucking make your move. 

50:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Jeff saw I think it was on buckeye. It was like uh, travis hunter, minus 380. I want to say yeah, to be second overall everywhere else was like minus 1000. 

50:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
At that point, there you go and they let me get square and they let me get on a lot. Yep, and I was, and even I had some buy. I'm like listen, you're not on this like you bet it. You haven't bet it hard enough there you go quick break here. 

50:30 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
If you're watching circles off and you haven't subscribed yet, what are you doing? We're sitting at 18 700 subs right now. That is so close to 20k. And we know for a fact that over half of the people who are watching us every week are not sub to the channel. Subscribing costs you zero, absolutely nothing. It's free. You get all the new episodes right away, you help us grow and, honestly, you help justify the insane amount of effort we spend putting this thing together every single week. If you've gotten a laugh from this show, a moment of oh, these guys actually get it anything, anything hit that subscribe button. It takes two seconds, helps us way more than you think and it keeps our channel growing so we can keep doing what we're doing. And let's be real here, I'm locked into a very bad contract with Joey Kanish. We're going to need those subs just to stay afloat. Thank you very much for the support. 

51:25
Back to the show. A reminder we do appreciate every single person's comments here on Circle Back. Please do leave us a comment. Helps us a lot in the algorithm Could be on any topic. We talked about ideas for the show in the future. Whatever it may be, comment down below. It's the easiest way that you can help us grow and of course we do like to feature your comments in the show every single week. And of course we do like to feature your comments in the show every single week. John Vreksix said you weren't here last week so I wanted your take on this. Kirk the discussion. The Sharps would do well to understanding perspectives beyond their own. Rex might be more receptive if Sharps weren't so condescending when engaging Save the snark for the scammers. So we talked about this a little bit last week and how there's this kind of divide on gambling Twitter. The recs never seem to see the sharp point of view, but the sharps always like in your case as well go in hard at the recs. Do you think that there is like a balance point? 

52:29 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, well, I do agree with this, and I actually think I messaged someone this recently, so maybe I fall into this category, but I don't think to like a pure wreck. I'm going to be like shitting on them and mean to them or at least I'll try not to be Because someone was like commenting on all my tweets, like trolling me and then like he ended up DMing me, being like I hope you know it's all my tweets like trolling me and then like he ended up DMing me, being like I hope you know it's all like joking, whatever. 

52:54
And I'm like save the trolling for Fezzik. You know, like troll people who do shitty things, I'm whatever. You can not like me. You can disagree with every single one of my comments and if anyone disagrees with one of my tweets, I never like mad about someone disagreeing with me, but it'll piss me off if someone's like trying to troll all my tweets. Like I'm just tweeting what I think, yeah, um, so I do agree with that. Like, to me, snark or condescension is saved for people who you think are kind of grifting, doing scammy things. You know, like, if you want to be a piece of shit to sean perry, go ahead. But like, if someone's just trying to give their opinion, even if you want to be a piece of shit to Sean Perry, go ahead. But like, if someone's just trying to give their opinion, even if you think they're an idiot, that is, you can disagree with them. But I do agree you don't need to be like a dick to that. 

53:41 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think disagreement on the internet is just really challenging. Yeah, it's, it's tough like. I thought about this more this week because I saw that comment and there's no great way to get your point across on the internet without a set like I'm not saying you're calling someone an idiot when you disagree, but it's going to come across that way almost regardless, like and you know I we're going to get to one gorilla versus 100 men later on. But FanDuel had a tweet that was out there where they made a market on it. It was like minus 4,000 for the gorilla, plus 1,500 for 100 men. 

54:18
First response on it was a guy saying like even when you post a hypothetical market, you post the shittiest odds. Those minus 4,000 plus 1,500, that's like having minus 108 on both sides. If you actually convert them to probabilities it actually would be good odds. But the average person doesn't understand that. I responded I don't even know what the response is going to be to that if you're going to get back to me. But to the person reading that, they're not going to have a good taste in their mouth from reading that afterwards. It's really hard to convey those messages on the internet. 

54:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I mean, context is king and that's hard through text and it's even harder through people like who don't know you, yes, right, right, so it always. You know it's hard to disagree and come across respectfully in text. Maybe I'm just making that up, but I would feel like if the same thing was like said to you across the table, it would be like what it would land so much softer, 100 percent. And and to kirk I don't think he goes after like true wrecks. He's the like he might go after a wreck who is just thinks they're so fucking profound and invented something. Yeah, right, and thinks they're so fucking smart. But I've never seen kirk like go after like a true rec who's just rec betting? 

55:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think like there's obviously different instances with beefs on the internet. I can't explain it, but when I see a rec say something what I perceive to be dumb about sports betting, I don't really have the ability not to say something. 

55:55
Maybe I'm getting better at that now than I used to be. I don't know what it is. It's not even like I'm trying to educate the person. I used to convince myself I'm trying to educate the person. It's like no, I do want to put this person in the place. I think it's because I press. 

56:15 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I read the tweet and I perceive like arrogance with the original tweet. It's just really tough to do this on the internet. Yeah, I think that is like if someone were to be like, what about this tweet of stuff I've sent? 

56:20
that would be what I have like criticized and being definitely very condescending, like the example when the guy tweeted like Victor when Benyama quad double was like seven million yes, I remember that, yeah but like that is someone I'll yes, I will be, and maybe I shouldn't be, but I will be condescending to a wreck or like a maybe a small winner who's trying to pretend like there's some genius and calling out like that was calling out fan duel, calling out a line that got put up. So there, I will be condescending and maybe I shouldn't be, but I do agree. Typically, like you want to only be a deck to someone who, who is doing something wrong. 

56:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
My favorite tradition on the Monday shows is watching Jeff place a couple live golf bets during the show. That's happening. Right, it's a hundred. Yeah, I can't get away from it. 

57:08 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I can't get away, he's like, because some sites Just drop lines. It's tough. Monday market I get it, man, believe me, it's tough. This is when, like you know, sometimes books for like A job or tournament they roll out slower. So things you know. 

57:22 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I shouldn't have called you on it. I feel bad, but it is. I always find it funny. I'm like I wonder who you're betting right now. I'm very interested. 

57:30 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Toasty. 

57:30 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Toasty. 

57:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah. 

57:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
All right, good number 100 to 1. 

57:35 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
All right. 

57:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
For the people out there. If you want to tell Jeff, you've got to get 100 to 1. Arkell 7374 says no itinerary is needed, Just handcuff Jeff to GRP and have Jeff experience a day in the life of George. What do you think about that idea? 

57:51 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Okay, but I want a like 3X lunch. 

57:56 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Like. What do you mean by 3X lunch? 

57:58 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Like we're not like. I want to go to. 

58:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
You want a sampler? Yeah, you want to try a little bit of everything we're going to like a lot of places. 

58:04 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
So it can't be like a typical Got. It Can't be a typical day. George usually eats one great lunch. 

58:11 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You want to see all the places he eats lunch at. I want to go to all the spots. 

58:15 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I want to see them from an angle that's beyond the picture. I want to see how the waitresses greet him. 

58:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's the most interesting, totally agree I want to see the interaction. It's going to be the interactions with other people Like when he walks in to go sit down down and play pot. Limit omaha what are the reactions of the people at the welcome george people getting up and walking like I don't know you need exactly like I. 

58:43 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Potentially, if it's possible, like I would be curious and asking the waitress some questions that's I like this I like get the opinions of people around it, but, george, also here's the thing he could be an enigma to those people he interacts with driving his mom's mercedes, yeah, using a hundred dollar bill to pay for bagels, yeah, like. And then he responds I'm like big shot he goes. You just got to make people think you're rich. So there are places where I think George likes people, maybe presuming that he is bigger than he is. 

59:19 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Like if George was sitting at the diner and the table over next to him there's a guy putting like mayonnaise on his sandwich, Do you think George would tell him that mayonnaise is dangerous Like he tweets? Is he an extension of that? Do you think he would tell him that mayonnaise is dangerous Like he tweets? Is he an extension of that? Do you think he would be? Because I think he would. 

59:35 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
No, I think he would let people like you eat. Yeah, no to your own, to your own devices on the eating. Like the guy's great at napkins under the plate covering his bet slips at rivers he uses the cocktail napkins. But yeah, no, there's just like a lot of little things. I want to have a meeting with you and Moreto. 

59:58 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, we were going to talk, it's like this brainstorming. 

01:00:00 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yes, yeah, that's why I'm bringing these on. 

01:00:02 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
There's good ideas in the chat every single week about like what we. I'm keeping note of all these things, keeping note of all these things. 

01:00:14 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I would love to see you play pickleball against him, though I've never played pickleball. That's why, and like, listen, there's a moment where, like it's super casual, but then I also think, like, maybe for like a, at least a couple minutes, getting a shirt and tie. 

01:00:21 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It's like a hard-hitting interview there's some like serious questions type of thing, like no, put them under the light. Yeah, george, do you really think it's right to sell picks to people and this like you gotta grill them? 

01:00:32 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
like george, you really think it's acceptable to talk to like kelly and pamela this way. 

01:00:37 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Your obsession with women is turning a lot of people off. How do you respond to that? 

01:00:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I like your idea but don't get me wrong. There will be like light heart, like we're gonna. 

01:00:47 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
The question is do you let them know that going in, or do do you pretend like it's going to be a lighthearted thing and then you turn the cameras on and start grilling? 

01:00:54 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It will be lighthearted. Okay, it will be lighthearted, all of it. And he seems down, he seems excited, he's given me his summer itinerary, which, like spoiler, it's. 

01:01:12 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
It's not hard to arrange on his side. Holy fuck man. 

01:01:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
But I think, like the NFL regular season, futures market should be more robust. Before I go, sit with him, the last comment here. 

01:01:23 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I don't know if it just disappeared or got deleted, but it was written down, thankfully, but I could not find it under the video. 

01:01:30 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It was a response to someone else's comment. So we get mocked for the Canadian lingo a lot. Just when I thought I knew everything about the Canadian lingo, I find out you guys call a grill a barbecue and we got mocked for how long parentheses is compared to brackets, smacking my head. 

01:01:47 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Shake my head, smacking my head. 

01:01:49 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Shaking my head. 

01:01:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Is that more Canadian lingo? 

01:01:51 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
They head shake my head, smacking my head, shaking my head is that more canadian lingo? They don't know. No, no, no, smacking my head was just misstep there. Uh, it wouldn't be up like we call it barbecue but uh like if someone said to me I'm gonna take out the, I'm gonna go out to the grill or whatever it would. 

01:02:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
We'd know exactly what that is yeah, they're interchangeable pretty interchangeable I had no idea that barbecue was not an accepted term in the US. Shocked. 

01:02:12 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
No clue and like I go, like you put me in a town, like one of the first things I'm Googling is like where's the good barbecue? 

01:02:19 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah but exactly, I think the barbecue is like what comes off the grill, you know. 

01:02:25 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, the food is the barbecue. 

01:02:27 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
That's what made me think they definitely say like in Texas there's good barbecue, that's America. 

01:02:32 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, but at barbecue probably. So it's called like a Weber grill. 

01:02:35 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, a grill, that's odd. 

01:02:38 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
To me like, I guess like the grill, though to me is as much. I call it grill all the time. 

01:02:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Like the stove to me is. 

01:02:49 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I say I'm going to use the grill. I've used grill before, for sure, but I'm more. 

01:02:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I had no, yeah, that's fine, it's interchangeable. I had no idea that barbecue saying it is awkward and confusing and so abnormal. 

01:03:02 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I wonder if it is or if this was just one comment. I always wondered about this. Let us know. 

01:03:06 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, you got to, let us know, you got to let us know. I watched the entirety of King of the Hill which, if you guys seen, is all about a lot about grills, and I have to like go back Like do they actually never, ever, reference it as a barbecue? Because that seems pretty crazy to me. Next story was a big one throughout gambling Twitter. Jackie at Jackie has pointed out or reported here that man wins 800K at casino but is told he won't see a cent. He's been forced to sue for wanting to stay below radar. 

01:03:36
And then a lot of people weighed in. We had Richard Munchkin say oh, I hate stories like this, both because of the casino stealing money again, but also such a waste. If the kid was more savvy he could have cashed these without making much of a ripple. Elihu had a big story on this caesar's gotcha not paying you 352k, and josh at call cuz service, who has been on circles off before rob does a bit of work with him, says caesar sportsbook free rolled this guy unacceptable. So the full story on this one here, and if I miss out it's a long story. So if I miss anything then please add on to it. 

01:04:10
But essentially this person was jamming the kiosk at Caesars with off-market in their perception off-market parlays and was continuously re-betting the exact same thing over and over. But there was an issue with the kiosk and actually printing those tickets. So they called a floor manager to come over I think it was to investigate the situation. In the end, they manually had those bets printed out for the person and then said these bets are good and signed it saying that the bets are fine. So, yes, it is against terms to re-bet the same thing over and over. However, they were acknowledged by a member of staff of Caesars and signed off as good bets. 

01:04:56
This happened on multiple occasions. After a while, this person was deemed to have been trespassing, so they kicked him off. The property wasn't allowed in the venue anymore. However, if the bets were to win, he was told he could go back to cash them the bets a lot of them did end up winning and when he went to go cash the tickets, caesars said they're actually going to be voiding those bets. So on one hand, yes, perhaps a breach of house rules, but also that breach of house rules was acknowledged and signed off as good bets. So did I miss anything, rob? Is that everything? 

01:05:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, it's pretty good. I think Eli Hood had his Medium article was really good in summarizing this. So if anyone wants to read it, we'll link that down in the description below. I just want to share a personal bias I have here because I'm good friends with Matt Buckhalter plus EV Analytics. I had him on the Circles Off channel before to talk about the lawsuit that he had against Caesars for voiding his bets and he ended up not winning that. He lost that. I think that was brutal decision overall. I think this is a brutal look for Caesars personally and I'm trying to remove bias from this altogether. 

01:06:14
But at the end of the day you cannot in any part of the world void a contract because it turned out badly for you. You simply cannot do that. And if a floor manager comes out, prints tickets, signs them, saying that they are accepted, you receive multiple verbal confirmations that the tickets are good. They essentially I mean, josh is right call customer service, they free roll this guy. That is unacceptable. But to make matters worse, indiana gaming is like nowhere to be fucking found on this situation. It's very reminiscent of Ontario with the Plus TV analytics situation where the regulators there's supposed to be some practices in place, and they just don't give a shit. 

01:07:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
They don't do anything about it, for anybody who doesn't know, with plus tv analytics. So what happened with him is he had a bunch of season-long overs on the cincinnati bangles that season, but that was the year that the bills and bangles game got canceled because tamar hamlin collapsed on the field. But they did I. I think it didn't explicitly say that they needed to play the full amount of games for action and he had overs on the Bengals that were already winners at that point that then got voided. 

01:07:39 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I think that was the situation with Plessy, I think it was even more ridiculous than that. I think it specifically said in the rules that if they had already reached that level it's a win, and then they voided that and something along those lines. 

01:07:51 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't remember exactly. It might have actually been the opposite of that where. 

01:07:55 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
either way, no, he won the bet and they didn't play the full games, but they already cleared the total. 

01:08:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
That's my they cleared the season-long win total but because they didn't play all the games they voided them and the house rules were altered after the fact as well. There was an unequivocal outcome that he was going to win, which, along with house rules, would say he should have been paid out and he wasn't. 

01:08:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
When I first saw this story. Sorry, kirk, to cut you off, but when I first saw this, my typical reaction whenever I see like this better one, this much money and they're not getting paid out again for people that don't know. I'll just repeat it I know it's getting. You know, I consulted for sports books in the offshore gaming space before I saw a million of these like go out to twitter in the past where someone's like this sports book is not paying me for the x and and the full story is never out there. 

01:08:48
There was always stuff behind the scenes of like this person is multi-accounting. We've done some crypto blockchain analysis and we can see that this person's connected to all these accounts. So my first reaction was like there's something I'm missing. Because I just watched the video of this story, I'm like there's something that's missing here. After reading Elihu's full synopsisis of the situation, it's ridiculous. In my opinion, it's. It's offensive to me that you have sportsbooks taking these bets manually, signing off that they're good to go and then just choosing to not pay them after they win yeah, no, I totally agree, and I get called a shill for sportsbooks often on this, on this show and and this is story's ridiculous. 

01:09:32 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
But to me, again, it's not as much the sport, caesar, is this ridiculous, what caesar is doing? But, like you said, it's the regulators. The regulators are so fucking bad in this industry. The ontario regulators are entirely useless. They don't know anything and it seems what indiana, this is indiana same thing. 

01:09:49
They don't know, anything and it seems what Indiana, this is Indiana, same thing. They don't know anything, they side with the sports books automatically and there's just no place, like there's just nowhere else to go because the regulators are supposed to be the ones who adjudicate this and they just know nothing and always side with the sports book. 

01:10:07 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So yeah, this is just it seems, as long as the sports book gives a response, the regulator says well, you've received your response from caesars. 

01:10:18 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Now you, you deal with them. Like type of situation. I've had better dealings with regulators or the law in fucking curacao than in ontario, I swear to god. So there's, yeah, it's's just ridiculous, it's very upsetting and certainly disturbing. 

01:10:34 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
If you're a pro better, and how the regulators respond. It's like you just go, you live your life, you do your job and you know your job and the industry you're in and you see how bad sports. You know sports betting, your pro sports better. You see how bad the regulators are at that. It just makes you so worried for everything because you're like, if this, if these regulators are so stupid, clueless in the bag for the sports books, then how are the regulators on like housing or or traffic or urban development, like they're just picking from the same fucking lot of losers I think the big thing for me here is that, like if I were another sports book, regulated sports book I would be livid with it, because to me, every single one of these stories that comes out it it's disastrous for the trust in the regulated market. 

01:11:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Remember, when sports betting was getting regulated, the whole big pitch was about, obviously, integrity in sports. That's a different story, but the whole notion was like you can go bet offshore but guess what? They can grade your bets however they want to grade them. They can run off with your money. You could bet with your local bookie and they don't have to pay. You Bet through the regulated market and they have to pay you. 

01:11:55
Yeah, you have to get paid and then stuff like this happens, where you win a bunch of money. I think I saw that. 

01:12:01 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Are you allowed to use a disguise though I don't know If you use a disguise and they catch you using a disguise, or then have proof of you using a disguise, does that then open their door, like obviously they can find the smallest thing to then make a huge lane? As for why they don't have to pay you, but what do you mean by disguise? 

01:12:21 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
like are you saying the guy said in the video like I go up there different times. 

01:12:25 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I put my hair on a bun like I don't know if he's wearing a fake mustache elu said that he had. 

01:12:30 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
He showed id when they uh checked the wagers for him. 

01:12:34 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
If he's giving fake id, obviously that's a different story, just like simone hunter, goes to the kiosks at night for his syndicates yeah, it says oh, you're going to skies. I put on a mustache pretend to be falling over drunk simone hunt. 

01:12:48 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, so what terms and conditions did they say he broke? 

01:12:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So he placed the same bet at a kiosk over and over Repeat bets. 

01:12:58 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Repeat bets and do they have that specific for kiosks? 

01:13:03 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I believe that, specifically in their terms, that you're not allowed to do repeat bets, which fine, but again, don't sign off on them this whole thing started because, basically, the ticket printer jammed and they had to print out nine tickets that never got printed. So floor manager comes over, prints them out, looks at them, notices that they're all the same thing, signs off saying that they're good bets, but says to the guy like get the fuck out. 

01:13:30 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
They gotta eat it, I agree with you. It's the same thing as we give the. I don't want to get the site wrong, but that screwed up. They talked about it on last Thursday's show. 

01:13:44 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I'm just saying I can't remember what I ate yesterday. 

01:13:47 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Like the person offered this to you, the person that works there. Your manager signed off on it, yeah. 

01:13:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Deal with him Like yell at him. This is a profit expert. 

01:13:57 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Like yell at that guy, but you have to, for the sake of your business, pay off this fucking guy, even if he is like a banned pro. Yeah, you have to pay him and then tell him to fuck off. 

01:14:07 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I also don't. 

01:14:08 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
And the free roll. 

01:14:13 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't love the explanations where it's just they violated the. Like you're Caesars, you could point, like if you really want to fight it, like put something out there that actually gets people on your side, like that is legitimately not just like a violation of house rules, violation of terms of service, like to me. Again, maybe there's more that we're not privy to. I can't say we're privy to a hundred percent of things and that ellie who's article is like perfect. Usually in situations like that, my experience is that the better is trying to pull a fast one, but based off the information that's been made available here, it does seem like it should pay. 

01:14:51 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
and if they don't, regulators should get involved, and I'm far from a lawyer, but my understanding is obviously the law is above terms and conditions. So to me the fact that the guy signed off that should obviously be a legal contract. And then to try to go back and say say, well, it broke terms and and conditions, but the guy signed off on it like and you advert like, you said verbal confirmation multiple times, no, it's just but also like imagine, I know he was betting parlays, but like imagine the situation now where he goes and hedges at another book based off of right. 

01:15:27 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Once you, once you are told that the bets are good, you have to honor them, and it's plain and simple. 

01:15:35 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
As as soon as that that verbal contract has been made, and written contract in this case with with the manager signing it, it's a contract now yeah it, that's it and like so yeah, right that that if some idiot goes to a kiosk and let's say the kiosk mask is 200, and they take some bad line and bet it 10 times, oh, if the book finds out that and they all lose, if the book finds out that he bet it 10 times, they're voiding it and giving him his money back, 0%. 

01:16:05 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
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01:17:35
So next up, we have another person talking about why they believe SGPs are the best way, most responsible way, rather, to bet on sports. This comes from DylanBorg3, at DylanBorg3, saying why I believe SGPs and lotto-style parlays are the most responsible way to bet sports for most people, and it's a very long tweet which you can pause to read here, but essentially trying to sum it up here, the idea is, the people who are betting these lotto style SGPs, these, these very large SGPs, they make that one bet and they're done. That's their bet for today. They're going to watch that, they're going to enjoy the action, whether it wins or lose it. They're not going to continue to bet SGPs. They're not going to do anything else. 

01:18:19
Where Dylan points out here that the issues and the problem gaming that he sees typically stems from betting with emotion during the game and chasing those losses or betting on the next game to try and make up the money lost. So it's continuing to not double down necessarily, but to just chasing the money Whereas SGP players don't typically do that and compares it to people who are not very good poker players, where they'll join a game, they put their money in, they lose, that's it. That's all the money they're going to lose. They're not going to continue to lose more money as the day or as the night goes on. And, rob, you've said something similar to this on this show previously. Do you concur with what's being said here? 

01:19:01 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So to this on this show previously. Do you concur with with what's being said here? So I do. I want to provide just a little bit more context, because dylan is the vp of underdog and underdog is our sponsor here at circles off, when I originally think jacob gets name right? He said dylan yeah, I don't know how to pronounce his last name either. I don't want to book. That was a joke. Borgida Borgida. 

01:19:23 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
That would be my guess it's Dylan Borg 3. 

01:19:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, dylan Borg 3. 

01:19:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
That's what it says. Go to Twitter. Follow. 

01:19:27 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So I will say this and again, I just want to sponsor it and the through the conversations I had with dylan, he basically said to me if, if I ever tweet something that you disagree with or underdog does, don't feel the need to not bring it up on the show. He's like I want the show to remain authentic and remain true to your brand. So I agree with d Dylan on a lot of stuff here, but I'm not saying this because of our presenting sponsor or anything like this. If you asked me this question three years ago, I would have completely argued this situation because my opinion was high hold bad for the better you want to charge, the better more to make a bet, to make a parlay. That is going to be bad. They are going to go broke quicker in the long run. 

01:20:24
But there are behavioral aspects of betting that are different and I see this through my friends now in the lens of regulated betting, where my friends in the past are true degenerates and I've talked you know, know this was maybe one of the first five episodes we ever did of circle back I talked about, especially when you. You grew up betting through local bookies. You settled at the end of the week. So you bet a bunch of straight bets 100 bucks, 200 bucks you're down a thousand. At the end of the week, what do you do on sunday? You try to win it all back with a thousand dollar bet. 

01:20:59
I find that my friends, through SGPs they the risk of problem gaming is actually a lot lower because they are just playing them like lottery tickets. It's almost like they're going to the convenience store every day. Here's my $2 at a chance to win a million and at the end of the week, whatever, they're down 20 bucks, 50 bucks, 100 but they're not constantly chasing the losses and listen. Should there be a world where you can bet SGPs at lower hold? Yes, I think I don't think you need to charge the better that much for an SGP, um, but if they are betting it, we're not going to get to that that world. But nowadays I I do very much agree with dylan here. I think that there's behavioral aspects of betting that people don't consider when they're having this entire discussion. 

01:21:48 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Kirk I'm glad you said that first part about dylan being willing for us to shit on him if he has bad tweets, because I do think this is a bullshit tweet and and not even that I disagree with his premise. I think it's entirely plausible and you've said it before and I've heard other people say that the sgps actually do prevent problem gaming. 

01:22:09
But not fully, by the way there's always sorry, maybe, maybe a little bit. Yes, and I think that's a total plausible theory. But for you to work for Underdog and tweet this and not have any data he even specifically says I'll be interested to see what the data shows long term, it just comes off as my product's great, you won't have problem gambling with us. When I read this tweet originally and I didn't know he was associated with Underdog I thought it was a totally reasonable tweet. But to be associated with Underdog and tweet something that so clearly sides with your company without having data If he had tweeted this, okay, look at, 20% of people who only bet straights have problem gaming, but only 4% say they bet SGPs have problem gaming Okay, then I could see this being a reasonable tweet. But to just kind of hypothesize something that so clearly leans towards your company and what they do, I just think it's kind of a shitty thing to tweet. 

01:23:14 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
So I would almost even encourage people to find this tweet and go read the thread, because I thought there were some very good exchanges on it it plus cv, analytics, our boy, isaac yep, who I thought wrote a great article last week on on uh I gaming and some of that correlation stuff there and I thought there was some really interesting like back and forth from this tweet, like from my own personal experience. Like I like to bet. I like to bet if I have an advantage from information or a friend who's smarter than me, and if I don't, I still like to bet on Thursday Night Football. But I don't like to play cards. I'm not into playing cards, I'm not just into that. And when I've been in a poker room and I lose $2.50 out of the gate on my pocket queens, I just sit there, I let them feed me, I drink like I'm not like jonesing to go back in there. If I lose like 250 on a one o'clock football game, I want to get it. Yeah, I want to get it back. So I understand that. 

01:24:11 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
And then in some of the I think by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt you I think you might be like a rare. That might be a rare case, though, because I know poker players who they they get you know felt it and like but I'm not like a poker player, right, they're poker right, just in the way that people aren't sports gamblers. 

01:24:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I am a sport, I'm I'm someone that likes to bet on sports like I don't know, like everyone has their own dark passenger, yeah. So in the replies you see a great conversation in that, like I don't know't know man, losing like 20,000 or 10,000 because of one rebound could seriously put you on tilt. The counter argument that was Isaac's point, dylan's counterpoint was actually I think, if you lose that by one rebound, you're like emboldened in your strategy and you're just like no, your strategy yeah, and you'll just like no, I can fucking hit that on 20 dollars, right. So goes both ways. Everyone's got their own dark passenger right in their own way, so like yes, without data, I think like there, there is data on this out there. 

01:25:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So I remember the first time I was privy to this was a couple years ago. I went I can't remember the conference I went to in Toronto, but there was kind of like an industry. I'll call him an industry expert. Chris Grove was his name. I've heard him speak many times before, but he started to present some data on this particular instance and that was I could be, I could be mistaken, my memory's horrible, but that was where I first started thinking, okay, maybe these actually aren't so bad. Get your point, kirk, about um you know, being the vp of underdog. Obviously this type of betting will um accelerate the company forward, so there is a vested interest in having this happen. 

01:25:58
I viewed this as because of the exchanges in the back and forth. Like Jeff said, I view this as like trying to push the conversation forward more than anything. There could be ulterior motives. You never know. But I've slowly morphed over the years and I think it's just through first-hand experience of watching how my friends bet now versus before, I'm like yeah, like, yeah, sure they're losing money, they're gonna, they're gonna lose money in the long run betting. I mean, I have friends who exclusively bet sgps every night, they're not gonna win. They might get one big win over time, but if they keep betting that over time, they're not gonna win and I know that. But it's. It's a far cry from 10 years ago where I had friends like asking me to pay debts and like loaning money and it's like why? And it's like I thought you were only down this much. And they're like, yeah, but you know, I tried to win it back. I do really. 

01:26:50 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Maybe I'm out of touch, but I do honestly believe that the not chasing losses factor of this type of bet does curb a lot of the responsible gaming issues yeah, my, my guess, honestly, and and again, I don't have data here, but this would be my intuition is that the bet type probably isn't actually that important and it's much more. You know, the personality type. Are you an addictive person? Are you like prone to something like that? So I just maybe it affects it on the margins. But I think, like, if you can get addicted to sports betting, you might be addicted to SGPs, you might be addicted to straights, and there are probably pros and cons of both. But you know, being addicted to gambling can be, like very destructive. But that is again I'm making an opinion, with no data as well here, but that would be my intuition, but you could also like because it is still very dangerous and you could have a friend who likes all betting in any capacity? 

01:27:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
yes, so my point being is. 

01:27:55 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
You could have a friend who uh, you know it starts off. He goes, fills up his tank at the gas station, gets a coffee. All of a sudden he's like ripping for strips for cherries. Yeah, like the lotto, sure. And then next thing you know, it's like he hasn't answered his phone in an hour. He's standing there ripping for cherries and it seemed like innocent, like harmless. They're like fucking $1 cards. What the fuck had happened to Timmy? 

01:28:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No, no, of course, Jeff, in any type of betting it can always be taken to the Come on, Jerry 100%. 

01:28:28
I used to go to Woodbine racetrack, right, and I used to bet on the horses. Well, now there's slot machines there, there's blackjack, I could play poker or whatever. You think I'm leaving after I'm done down betting on the list. I can bet within my limits, but there's Just take a company outing to the horses. I would love to do that. I would love to do that, but nowadays, with this type of betting, I see this as small bet. Usually and again I'm speaking in like usually Small bet, dream of winning big as my notebook falls off sweat, move on. That's how typically how I see the pattern of my friends around me now, whereas before it wasn't, it was medium to large bet chase not really dream of winning big. 

01:29:19
Things aren't going well. Chase with live betting. Chase with something else. Yeah, guess what? You could chase sgps by doing live sgps as well, but it's the same concept. It's a small amount of money, so while the hold is is definitely higher on these bets, um, I I'm much more open to them being let like tolerable or, let's say, less harmful than I originally thought that they would be. And I'm not saying that because we're presented by Underdog. I talked about this when we were presented by Pinnacle before as well. I think that that type of bet type is just to induce a little bit of sweat. And here are some of the. I didn't do the homework, I didn't read the sheets, I didn't read the sheets. 

01:30:01
We didn't do a run-through before the show, so you didn't know that these slides were coming up. But look, Jacob, read in your mind. 

01:30:06 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, I'll read them. So Plus TV Analytics said I get what you're saying and I think there's some truth here, but the rush of an occasional big win and consequences which align with what some of you guys said. And then RoundRobinIsaac, who was on a recent Friday episode of Circle Back and was one of the earlier Tuesday episodes as well, says Agree, that hold isn't the most important factor in determining whether someone is gambling responsibly. Unsure about the tilting part? A lot of style betting generates far more high leverage spots and it seems easier to tilt when the one missed rebound costs you 20 units, not two. Also, even though sdps aren't designed to artificially inflate the number of deer misses, like slots, people are bad at math and think getting five out of six means they're so close and are going to get six out of six next time. So, yes, pretty, but again, that's encouraging another like smaller bet. 

01:31:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Uh, interesting points and and I agree and disagree with some of them. Again, I very much live through the lens of what I see around me. I think a lot of people by nature, if you're hanging around with friends, family members and you see their behavioral patterns with certain things, you kind of try to, you know, you kind of extend that to the masses. Sometimes I don't have data available to me either I will say like sure, there could be extremely big psychological consequences of throwing down a five dollar parlay to win a million and your last leg loses. 

01:31:31
Typically what I see out of my friends is they're always trying to hedge for some sort of profit lot as well, like there's lots of. So I don't think there's a lot of people who are just like completely letting that ride. If it's life changing money, granted, how much can you hedge? It's not like they can go and put in a $500,000 bet. So there's there, there, there it's a very valid point, um, but certainly I guess the point I'm trying to make is like I probably was, you know, five years ago, three years ago, maybe even would have been in Dylan's mentions arguing with him, and I just don't view it the same way anymore. I just don't view it that way. 

01:32:08 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Next topic, the big one, biggest topic in the world this week, not just gambling, twitter, but it is the debate 100 men versus one gorilla. I got tagged in this by a few people. I got telegram messages that this needs to be on the show today. It wasn't originally included. I was going to include it, but then Rob also decided this needed to be included as well. Novig posted about it, posting odds which was in minus 999 trillion for the gorilla. Uh, here's one of the people that tagged me at prop dude seven tagged me on twitter, said that this needs to be in. Wager monster also tagged rob to put this in. But yes, the debate. 

01:32:56 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Guys, it's pretty simple 100 men, I would say average, like just a random 100 is it just like an eclectic sample of society like you don't get like a hundred of me well, the hypothetical questions always get me because it's like yeah, it's like I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you stipulation 100 average, just a random sample of 100 people, 100 men, and do they get to meet before? 

01:33:22 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's the big one. Is everybody thrown into the pit at? 

01:33:27 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
once Do they get to draw straws for who gets their face ripped off? 

01:33:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Well, okay, because if they can coordinate, if the group of 100 men can coordinate. 

01:33:36 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
No weapons. By the way, I was going to say Bare hands, no weapons. 

01:33:39 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
If they can strategize beforehand, there is a chance for the group of men. If they cannot and they are thrown into the pit with a gorilla, it is a 100 win rate for I. I was. I went to take a piss break while we were recording the friday circle. Back crew is chatting about this right now. 

01:33:59 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
These guys are insane people. 

01:34:02 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Do people not understand? 

01:34:04 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
the size and strength of a gorilla. So a silverback gorilla, which is what we're going to use for this example, is between 4'11 and 5'11, weighs 300 to 430 pounds. 

01:34:14 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I'm scared when there's like a block of glass between me and the gorilla. 

01:34:19 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Gorillas are a biological tank. Like the amount that they, the strength that they have, the bite strength of a gorilla is basically equivalent. It's stronger than a lion. It's like equivalent to a crocodile. First and foremost, they will. They would rip. The first people that go at this gorilla are getting torn limb from the gorilla will beat the rest of the humans with the limbs of the other. 

01:34:42 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
The first the first few people are toast 100. First 10 to 15 are done. We have 100 people here in all of humanity men have survived of hunting animals that are way faster and way stronger than them, and you know what the difference is. Humans have endurance that is incomparable to what a gorilla could achieve. So yes, like 10 guys, absolutely no shot. 100, if you go in waves, you eventually are going to wear out. 

01:35:14 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You're missing the psychological component of this. 

01:35:16 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
You're missing the psychological component of the first person that goes there having his head ripped off. His body need to have waves of people. You need to have people willing to be in that first way ready to die. 

01:35:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
As soon as you see someone's arms and legs ripped off in front of you, you are no longer ready to experience that you're probably faking the death in the corner. 

01:35:36 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I, I would. I would personally play dead. I'd be pretty confident laying juice on humans to win 100 humans to win a grill. I'd bet minus money on the humans to win, oh no, minus, money. Yeah, absolutely. I think they would comfortably win eventually. 

01:35:55 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No, If they replicated this group there's four of us in here, there's 25 groups of this. The cardio is not there. There's 25 groups of we got like the cardio is not there. There's nothing, your cardio would outlast the Gorillaz cardio. 

01:36:08 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
What about? 

01:36:08 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
ages? Is it like 25 to 30? Like 20 to 40-year-olds only? 

01:36:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Do we have Elf in there recording this for content as well? 

01:36:19 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Okay, I got to take this joke. I wish I knew who it was from so I could give them the credit I wish. So I apologize in advance, but I would take one. 

01:36:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Jw lucas you know you haven't been in the spaces in a while. 

01:36:34 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
No, I don't know, you know, is that the like the, the roided preacher guy? Yes, yes, I do know. I do know that guy. I think it was. 

01:36:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I'll just give Playmaker Dave a shout out. 

01:36:44 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I guess I think it might have been him. I would love to pose this question to AI and see what we get back. So most AI agree that strategy would overcome the gorilla? 

01:36:54 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yes, probably yes, become the gorilla. 

01:36:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yes. 

01:36:58 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Probably. 

01:37:00 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yes, that is the difference that humans have over animals is number one endurance that animals don't have. So, yes, over, you know, a hundred meter sprint, I'm going to lose to most animals every single time, but over a marathon, I'm going to win every single time. And also, what humans have that animals don't is strategy. We can coordinate, work together, weak spots like the eyes, but you could work together and get this done. 

01:37:29 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
At a pick'em, I would lay my entire net worth on the gorilla. 

01:37:32 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I think a hundred people have the capability to beat a gorilla. But in reality when the first three people step up and get their face torn off, then everyone's emotions, they get scared and it would just end up kind of being the lineup of people just kind of going to slaughter. But if 50 people sprinted at the gorillas back immediately and tried taking the legs and the shoulders as people went and exactly went for the eyes and tried just like scratching and clawing and injuring the gorilla, I think the humans would win. But I agree, I just think psychologically people are seeing people's faces get ripped off. 

01:38:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No preparation, no preparation. Gorilla dominates Gorilla. I firmly believe, 100%, I think even no prep humans still win? 

01:38:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
No, I don't think so I look forward to watching the boys on Thursday. Think about you. Sounds like something Mr Beast would do, no. 

01:38:22 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, we paid a million dollars to 100 people to get in there. 

01:38:25 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
You know what? I don't know how I feel about this. I just will agree with Nadeau, nadeau, yeah, whatever Nadeau says will be my opinion. 

01:38:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, to spoil the opinions of others, we'll get. If this is still a trending topic by friday, we will get this in the rundown. I think it's asinine man. 

01:38:48 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Think about like you if you were, if you were against like a hundred, like four-year-olds, let's say you would not. It's a horrible comparison. Just let me finish. Let me finish. 

01:38:55 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
It's not like you obviously like. Like it's a bit of a different scenario as well, because you're not going to rip the four-year-old limb from limb and show it to the other four-year-old and say this is what happens when you come. But you would comfortably beat beat up a four-year-old, but after 50 four-year-olds you're going to be really tired. So even the next 50 coming at you, you are going to be absolutely exhausted having to deal with another 50 to come in. So like I think comfortably like 15 to 30 people are goners very quickly, but the gorilla is also going to get exhausted very quickly here, the gorilla is going to be yielding weapons for the rest of the fight. 

01:39:34 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He's going to be wielding your femur bone. 

01:39:36 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
So can you? Yeah, I'll take somebody else's man. Can I use that weapon? 

01:39:42 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Why not? 

01:39:42 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, you can pick up some guys head on the ground. 

01:39:44 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Now, all of a sudden, I've got the the limbs. 

01:39:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I don't need a little bit extra range I don't even like watching homer simpson fall down the springfield gorge yeah, you're, I know, I know how you are with stuff like this. 

01:39:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I was concerned that you might actually vomit during this segment. Just thinking about the possible outcomes, but do you get armor. No, no armor, you're just going in there. 

01:40:03 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I don't know. Sometimes in the Roman Colosseum they at least had a little armor. 

01:40:08 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I think 100 humans should be favored. 

01:40:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Too bad the Romans didn't try this one. Yeah, then we'd know. 

01:40:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Maybe they did Maybe they did. Maybe it's on record. Comment down below. One girl I want to know what you make the betting line, the fair betting. What would you make the line under the pretenses of it's a hundred average humans and everyone is just thrown in at once without communicating beforehand at least minus 10,000. Oh no, that's way too much. 

01:40:42 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Probably. 

01:40:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I actually think it's very, very close to a 100% chance. 

01:40:47 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
No, I'm not with you. I would say probably Gorilla like minus 400. 

01:40:50 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Try to think like what. Think about us. What fictional characters would you want like with you. I guess people like Jacob, no, but like what I don't know, like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Predator. What sort of fictional characters Would you hope are in your 100? 

01:41:06 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Ace Ventura If I got Superman. 

01:41:09 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He would dominate I don't know. 

01:41:15 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
So the only thing is. So part of it is like what's the reward? 

01:41:18 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
For the 100 people in there. That's the thing. 100 average humans means like 44 of them are just gone. 

01:41:23 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Me, you, kirk like won't even 75 of us. Like, if we were to extrapolate this out like we have four of us in here, right, so it's 25 groups of four, uh, 100. Okay, so you and kirk are dead, are completely goners and useless, every version of me is playing dead. 

01:41:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
All 25 versions of me are playing dead. 

01:41:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Me and Kirk are a knife, I will be turned to dust in less than a second. 

01:41:48 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Jacobs are only fighting chance and he's going to get murked If you assume you're going to die anyways. 

01:41:54 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
It doesn't matter, dude, if it's a fight to the death and you know you have to show up. You'll probably find something within you. 

01:42:00 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
If you know that it's a fight to the death and you know you have to show up, you'll probably find something within you If you know that it's a life or death situation you'll find something within you. 

01:42:04 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
You either die or you win. 

01:42:07 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I think in the scenarios where there's 25 of you and only one needs to survive. You're more likely to be one of the first 30 in that you're done. 

01:42:17 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
After seeing the first 5 to 10 people die, I would be thinking about how could I kill myself here without getting involved by this gorilla. 

01:42:23 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
That's where my head would shift, I think. Minus 150 for the 100 humans. 

01:42:27 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I'd have like a cyanide pill in my tooth. 

01:42:30 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
If this ever actually happens, Rob and Jacob have the biggest cross of all time. He has humans minus 150,. You have gorilla minus 10,000. 

01:42:39 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Great crossing opportunity. I mean, listen, maybe I'd bet this at Novig, there with all those nines in front of it, and throw a buck down on it. It's life-changing money. But I don't know, Maybe I'm overemphasizing the. It's hard to know I can't wait. 

01:42:55 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, you said it, let's get this gorilla. We're on a crocodile bite strength man Next on? 

01:42:59 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, you said it, let's get this gorilla. Gorillas are really not a crocodile bite strength man Gorillas are not that predatory compared to other animals as well. Like it's not one of the most deadly animals either. I don't know Like. Honestly, like a hippo would probably be even worse. 

01:43:12 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Hippo might be worse. 

01:43:13 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Well see, like I guess maybe the original advantage on the gorilla Can the hippo get on a few like 10 people get on, 20 people get on the back, Maybe the gorilla at first doesn't know that he's in a fight. 

01:43:23 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I mean, maybe it's your one edge. 

01:43:26 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
The gorilla doesn't know he's in a fight. Until he is, it wouldn't instinctively try to fight you like a polar bear or a hippo would. 

01:43:32 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I don't know Polar bear changes. 

01:43:34 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
First guy that pisses that gorilla off, it's over. I think a gorilla sees a hundred humans. 

01:43:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Well, we're never gonna decide with this, never gonna be proven, but I I feel very confidently and there was a gorilla at the san diego zoo that liked running into the glass and it scared the shit out of me yeah we're getting out of here what are also the pain receptors, like on a gorilla. 

01:43:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's what I don't know anything about that. Like human beings we would you feel the pain gorilla? I mean, like if you got 10 guys punching a gorilla at the same time as you feeling it is anyone, can I even punch hard enough for a gorilla to feel it? Like even people who are physically fit? Look at, look at elf as an example. 

01:44:13 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Could elf? 

01:44:14 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
punch hard enough, you need scratch. 

01:44:16 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I think, yeah, I need nails, I don't need you have to, you'd have to go for the eyes. Yeah. 

01:44:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Eyes Kicks right Eyes. It'd be the eyes. 

01:44:23 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
That'd be where you'd get your advantage. As one of the 100 humans Try hurting its feet. 

01:44:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But, also, what are the senses like for a gorilla? If a gorilla loses his eyesight, I assume the sense of smell would still pick up anything around him. 

01:44:37 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I'm sure it'd be a gorilla or overrating the gorilla dude. 

01:44:39 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Maybe I am overrating the gorilla. I don't think I am, though Hard to know. I think I might be underrating the gorilla, maybe I am. You guys ever watch Congo back in the day? Do you remember Congo? 

01:44:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, no, I know the movie. 

01:44:52 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You would need a thousand men to take down that gorilla. Yeah, you never watched. Watch congo. 

01:44:57 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Maybe it's. I don't think I watched it, but I know the movie. 

01:45:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yeah, there's no hope, strategy and endurance that's that's the savior of the chopping block chopping block. All right, that was supposed to be in the chopping block but uh, it had to be its own segment. We'll start off with this instead, a late edition from the cousin sal. So if you guys remember the scholars will remember we talked about the ultimate NBA betting strategy. We actually didn't report it correctly. So the betting strategy is every team favored by 9.5, every game, no subjectiveness. If you're favored, bet them 9.5. Wait, no, is it? 

01:45:35 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
favored. I think it's both teams. 

01:45:37 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I still read this as both teams. 

01:45:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I read it as both teams, but I could be wrong, but it says minus 9.5. 

01:45:42 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Take both teams 9.5. 

01:45:46 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You're basically rooting for a blowout. Yeah, no matter what. 

01:45:49 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Okay, anyways, it's a 9.5 point betting strategy. Cousin Sal reports back saying my 9.5 NBA playoff betting scheme took a crazy hit this week. Minus 22.78 units takes it to minus 17.26 units overall. Brutal beats An 8-point game, 4-9-point game Memphis up 29,. Loses, nuggets up 20. In the fourth, barely win. No excuses except for the ones listed right above it. No excuses except for the half dozen or so listed above. I'm gonna keep plugging away. There's a stupid big winner in the bunch this week. I can feel it. Run as far away from me as you can. 

01:46:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yes, run away so yeah, we obviously talked about this last week. Uh, I, I love the humor in it by way, like no excuses, except for the half dozen. I like that when people can find humor in the losses. Here's the real problem. System betting we talked about is useless. You lose 22 units in the week. No one's betting this anymore. So even if this turns around and suddenly becomes a win and we find that big winner, guess what People are done with losing money on this? Secondly, cousin Sal definitely doesn't watch this show, but I would love to bookmark this, because I think next year you are going to see the same system, but it's going to be 7.5-point favorites instead of 9.5, because it's going to account for the 8-point game and the 9-point games. Systems garbage. Don't listen to them, don't use them. They're usually in a small sample size. You know what. Credit to him, though, for at least recapping it. 

01:47:26 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, good for Cousin Sal for actually tracking units. You said you like the humor in it. It's probably because Cousin Sal is funny and clearly not a good bettor at all. But yeah, really, my big takeaway other than this is hilarious, that he thought this was a good way to bet is the NBA playoffs have been amazing. 

01:47:44 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I got nothing on it, it's just it's fun. It's got like Barstool vibes, like when Portnoy or Big Cat or someone from that orbit. 

01:47:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I find it a lot. I don't know what it is. It's just because I like Big Cat so much. I find it much more tolerable when big cat does stuff like this. 

01:48:00 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
And it sounds much like an older he's like a big I, I'm, I, I guess. 

01:48:07 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So cousin Sal was on whatever that that show was called on, on follow the money, maybe on Fox sports, I don't remember what it was called. I could be missed with like Furman and with Furman and and and With like Furman and Clay Travis, yeah, and I kind of had like a bitter taste in my mouth from that for a while now. So I guess I don't find it as funny anymore. 

01:48:28 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Sal's a pretty like wreck. I'm not like a winning bettor, but sure Fox Sports got in the betting game and they put him on a TV and then it made him have to say things that someone like you would fucking detest. 

01:48:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yes, well said, jeff, exactly Well said. Alright, next one. 

01:48:46 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
By the way, yeah, reading it Memphis up 29 to lose is Memphis was an underdog, so it is every single game, both teams minus 9.5. 

01:48:55 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You know what's funny? This is almost like from the Matt Zilbert school of thought, where any loss becomes a bad beat at some point Memphis was up 29. 

01:49:04 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
At half they were 12.5-point favorites. It wasn't some crazy thing that they did. They lost. 

01:49:09 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
They literally lost, but you needed them to win by 9.5, and the spread was 12.5. 

01:49:15 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
It wasn't a bad beat, it was actually much closer to covering on OKC's side. Anyways, next one comes from Shoebox at JJSS64. Hey, elf, I got an idea for you Scrap this boxing nonsense and get the boys in a power slap match. It's quicker, easier to set up and will get more people to watch. I'll take my commission when it blows up. Power slap is the slapping, I guess sport where you literally just stand across from a small table with your opponent and take turns slapping each other until one gets knocked out. 

01:49:46 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I've never been able to get into power slap Like watching one guy give another CTE is not my definition of entertainment. I will say, though, I'd be more interested in influencer power slap than I am with the Influencer Boxing. 

01:50:02 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Totally agree, I saw like the whole One time I was in Vegas and like all the Power Slap competitors were staying at Circa, circa was like a partner or something. 

01:50:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I mean, these guys are like monsters. 

01:50:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
You know when you see like the slow motion. 

01:50:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, it's disgusting and like all the rip and you're like, wow that guy just lost like three years of his life taking that one slap to the head. 

01:50:26 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
It's all the horrible parts of UFC and boxing without any of the good parts Agreed. 

01:50:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But yeah, I'm so. Listen, I don't want to say everyone is out on the boxing stuff, the influencer boxing stuff, because it's not true. But on the boxing stuff, the influencer boxing stuff, because it's not true. But I'm very out. I will probably watch the fight but the whole build-up stuff. 

01:50:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I'm so done with it, yeah, and I won't be able to get odds like official on it not happening. 

01:50:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah. Did you try. 

01:50:56 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Yeah, and I saw the book even added a note that, as long as it happens within a week of the scheduled date and part of me feels like the book doesn't want to post the line that I'm requesting, because then if they post that, it sort of it totally delegitimizes the thing that they're trying to sell. 

01:51:20
It legitimizes the thing that they're trying to sell. But hey, listen, this is big because how do I put this? Like one of the fights happened, one of the fights didn't happen, and now I think Ozilma make good and he's turned it into a whole thing. 

01:51:42 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Nothing is real. 

01:51:43 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
That's not to say the punches when they go in the ring aren't real. Yeah, but nothing nothing is real. 

01:51:47 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't like to reward attention seeking behavior and this would be rewarding attention seeking behavior and I don't want to do that that being said, I like you. 

01:51:58 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
I think a lot of people who are out self-included when someone messages me or the DMs are going off like they're going in the ring. I'm going to watch. 

01:52:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Yep what the fuck is this tweet, Yep? Next one comes from Matt Zilbert, our old friend, Quote tweets one of his videos from Deadspin Wednesday was a waste for Matt Zilbert because of the weather. Let's win an over-under bet on Thursday with a link to the article. Maybe you can check the metadata on that one. See if there's any edits after midnight. But for all the constant hate I get on here on seemingly a daily basis, I'm legitimately shocked. No one was ripping on my turquoise cardigan, which he is wearing in the video here, and I'm thankful for that. I try to be the best dress sports gambling personality in the business, in addition to being the most accurate. 

01:52:52 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
What the fuck is this guy talking about? 

01:52:55 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
My only thought when I see this tweet is we need to interview whoever hired him at Deadspin. What was the interview like? 

01:53:05 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
We're at over 60% those questions. They don't matter right now. How about that? 

01:53:12 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
call Silbert is learning the content creator game, though he's calling attention to his turquoise cardigan here and that like no one ripped. That's like he's wearing an ugly baseball that's a classic like engagement farming. Yeah, like type of move move. Like he wants people now to respond to him and tell him his cardigan looks like shit. That's what he's trying to to get out. Like he's doing videos promoting his video, his, his articles. Like he's playing the get. He's doing videos promoting his articles. He's playing the game now. 

01:53:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
My favorite two things going on among internet whack packers gambling whack packers that aren't George One. When Library any time and he does it. Anything about boxing, he's like I'm going to text Floyd Mayweather Kills me, kills me, drops me. I need to hold on to something for support. The other thing I love because I'm laughing so hard I'll fall is when Zilbert wins a bet and he references himself having discovered this pitcher because it's totals usually unders, like six years ago. 

01:54:18 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah. 

01:54:20 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Discovered him like he was scouting at high school. It is the most absurd thing. Now I guess baseball like when you're a true baseball hardo your ego can like get up on like discovering guys, because there's so many levels of minor league that usually when someone discovers a nba player it's like the third game of the season and we're all kind of caught on. 

01:54:40 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
yeah, we all catch on together, right? Yeah, it's like the third game of the season. 

01:54:41 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
We're all kind of caught on, we all catch on together, but it's one of my favorite bits. I asked him why he didn't get into scouting and he says because I wouldn't be allowed to gamble $63 on a game. Amazing, he didn't tell me the dollar amount, but he says he likes gambling. He likes providing gambling insight more than, say, being in a war room. 

01:55:04 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I'm not sure anyone would be inviting me. 

01:55:06 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I could be in a front office, but I just love gambling so much Love, love, all right. Enough air time for him. Next one here. It was a good day potentially for SGP betting At SGP underscore parlay says yeah, we could be in for a historic SGP performance later today, and it just showcased the conditions which lend themselves All the wind blowing. 

01:55:38 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
These ones always get me First of all. 

01:55:40 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Sorry, the conditions lend themselves very strongly to positive performances at the plate for baseball players in these venues they're showcasing here. 

01:55:49 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, sure, winds blowing out. This isn't information that nobody knows about. This is going to be factored into every price, like all the player prop derivatives just come from the game total, essentially, anyway. So it's like, no like. First of all, this is a paywalled site. I can't remember what it is, so he just took the information and posted it to his twitter, which is like kind of like. You don't do that. Generally speaking, I would say generally speaking nowadays, if I was going to be looking for a historic sgp performance based off of this table that's presented to me, I would actually be looking to fade the wind and play unders, because what tends to happen in these types of situations is exactly what sgp parlay thinks. Everyone thinks they're on to the same exact thing gonna parlay all these overs on this total and whatever. It's all factored into the price and more. I actually I I don't, I don't love when people post stuff like this yeah, I've got no experience betting like wind. 

01:56:53 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
I agree with you. I'm definitely obviously into closing lines. I don't know, could potentially be uh like the derivative stuff could be a bit slow to react to this. But yeah, I agree with you. If everyone's looking at this, everyone's betting, it could easily be overpriced as well. 

01:57:10 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I mean the people who are betting. These are probably putting SGPs down at like for a 4-0-5 game. They're probably betting at 4-0-3 with it already completely kicked in. 

01:57:21
Yeah, so nothing here Next. This is from phillysportsufferer at mccrystal underscore. Alex Shared a video from Twitter. The user here is jassiera concrete and it's a user who goes to different MLB ballparks and rates the concrete on the floor. So he went recently to a Phillies game, showcased a lot of the very nice concrete. Did find some of the imperfections, maybe some hairline cracks within the concrete that suggested that needed replacing, but overall gave it a 4 out of 5 to the Phillies ballpark for concrete. You guys, you know the Rogers Center, the Sky Dome, very old stadium. You guys ever dabbled with the concrete looks you ever think about that? 

01:58:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
at the stadiums. I will say I think about how sticky the floors are sometimes there. They are a little sticky sometimes. You know when you're walking through to get to your seat and you're like your feet are stuck. 

01:58:18 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
That's not on the concrete. 

01:58:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I feel to your seat and you're like your feet are stuck, so that's not on the concrete. I feel like that's more on, like the seating area. Yeah, but that's built out of concrete anyways. Fair, it's just had so many years of like popcorn and debris on the floor. I love this. This is a great, very innovative gimmick um very hard to execute, though. 

01:58:34 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
You have to travel worldwide expensively to break concrete at all these different stadiums. 

01:58:40 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That is true. I don't know what his experience is as well. Like if he was a general laborer before. 

01:58:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It seems like he's part of a company, I think it's J Sierra Concrete Right. 

01:58:53 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
The way that he was talking was as if he had experience laying concrete. 

01:58:56 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He is a concrete professional. Clearly, like you said, Rob, it's a great stadium bit for all the dumb. 

01:59:04 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
For all the things people do. I'm going to drink 10 beers at the bar. I'm going to have 14 hot dogs or whatever. 

01:59:09 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
Taste the pizza. Everything's played. 

01:59:12 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
This is very fucking original. To execute content like this, you need to take it as serious as cancer. 

01:59:18 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He did not break character once. He was completely dead serious. Caroline Fraxier, like this you need to take it like as serious as cancer like he did not break character once. 

01:59:24 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
He was Caroline fracture, in my opinion, I would redo this entire thing. I'm not sure what the Phillies are gonna do. 

01:59:28 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It was very, very well done but that's like you know, it's sort of like the secret sauce, like that's what makes George so good. Yeah, it's just like his life of of delivery boring. Everything is so goddamn serious Love this. 

01:59:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'm actually going to watch these afterwards Because very interesting. 

01:59:47 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
That's what I was trying to say I forgot this was up next. A bunch of people shared this, but we have. Jaguargator9nfl Posted a live reaction to Shadur getting getting drafted. So what the Browns media team did, or their, their content team, whatever they made a graphic for the background of the NFL draft when they were making a pick that had a dog bone vertically placed. 

02:00:13
So if you can imagine what the bottom quarter of a typical like cartoonish dog bone looks like especially when bobbling up and down, when the rest of the dog bones cut off, it looks like something else on screen and it just looks like two balls hanging over someone's head and it happened to coincide with schindler's getting drafted oh, that is unbelievable I think lots of teams will pay closer attention to their graphics going forward. 

02:00:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'm not sure how someone didn't. I don't know what. 

02:00:45 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
The full bone looks like it's a dog bone. You wouldn't think it does look like a little hairy, though it looks a lot like a nutsack. 

02:00:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
It looks so hairy. 

02:00:56 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It looks like a recently shaved nutsack. 

02:01:00 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Yeah, exactly that's unbelievable. I couldn't even imagine what else it was before you said the dog bone. Yeah, Kirk was an eye. It did take me a long time. It took me a long time because. 

02:01:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I also didn't know I had to dive in to try and find the photographic which I eventually saw that is so good. Yeah, that was funny. Andy Molitor, who's a frequent watch-along guest on the Forward Progress channel, well-versed in gambling content, gave hashtag circle back as a quote tweet to this. It's a picture of a lion and it says the lion accepts the receding hairline with dignity, and it's a lion that has a very, very odd hairline, and I'm surey targeted this at definitely me, possibly kirk. 

02:01:46 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
A good day to be wearing. Mostly me, for sure. Uh, there's very like, listen I. I actually know I have a receding hairline and I've come to terms with it, so I don't really get bothered by that as a lion, to be fair. 

02:01:56 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I really. 

02:01:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I really don't get bothered by this stuff anymore, especially not coming from andy. Like Andy, andy is one of the most Likeable people around, so even when he insults you, you just kind of laugh it off. I don't know, man. 

02:02:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He's so funny that when he insults you, he can do it in a way when like yeah, I think I responded to this Calling him a fucker or something like that. 

02:02:22 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
But yeah, I need to know if this was referring to me and rob or just rob, because I'm considering getting some plugs and this might just get me over the line. But if it's just rob, then I might. I might just be able to. My betting partner is getting it done this summer. 

02:02:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You know what I'm not like if it's. If at some point I want to, I will. But this is funny, andy's very humorous. 

02:02:42 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Great tweet. 

02:02:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It was also fantastic when me and Jeff beat him by like 78 strokes when we were mini golfing with him in Myrtle Beach last year as well. Could be some resent from that, I would say. Could be some resent from that. I think that's it. 

02:02:56 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
That's it, can I? 

02:02:57 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
ask you, rob, I saw, I put out a tat, I saw your boy Trent, is coming to Toronto for the Leafs game. Fuck, tuesday game five. Yeah, sometimes he watches the show. Maybe he sees this Catch you up coming for a little circles off. 

02:03:14 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I wonder how much I'd have to pay him to not go to the game. I have a Trent defies like. I don't really believe in mushes, he seems to defy that Like. 

02:03:24 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
I really think about it sometimes. He's a real mush. Well, who's he betting on? He may be at the game. 

02:03:28 - Geoff Fienberg (Co-host)
He's not betting on. 

02:03:29 - Kirk Evans (Co-host)
Ottawa, he's for sure betting the Leafs. Yeah, that's what. I mean. 

02:03:32 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Like he's coming. I have game six tickets in Ottawa. I don't want to go, so I need the Leafs to close it out. 

02:03:39 - Jacob Gramegna (Announcement)
Thursday, Thursday yeah, I was very not nervous for Game 4. I'm not super nervous for Game 5. I will be shitting myself ahead of a potential Game. 6. Let's just win Game 5. 

02:03:51 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Let's just do that. All right, that's going to be it for Circleback this week. A reminder smash that Like button down below. If you're not subbed here on Circles Off, make sure that you do hit that subscribe button. We'll see you on Friday with Jacob and the B-team, kanish, flop and Nadeau. Peace out everyone.