00:00 - Kirk Evans (Host)
coming up in this week's episode of circle back he's a total larper at this point, like maybe he used to be good. He has truly no idea what he's talking about these days. 

00:10 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I personally literally cried when john tavarez scored in overtime against tampa bay but go ask any hardened nfl fan who loves the new york jets um. They hate her more than anyone. 

00:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
While Kirk is a hundredth percentile, sportsbook, simp I'm probably like 60th percentile sportsbook simp. 

00:32 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Disclaimer the content presented in this show is intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any individuals or organizations mentioned. Statements made about public figures or entities are based on publicly available information and are not intended to harm or defame any person or business. This show relies on fair use of social media posts, which are presented in good faith for the purpose of commentary and criticism. Viewers and listeners are advised to form their own opinions. Circle back right here on the Circles Off channel. It's part of the Hammered Betting Network and it's presented, as always, by Underdog. 

01:28
This is the show where we cover and react to the best and latest stories from gambling Twitter, and we're, with the Tuesday crew in a little bit of a different setting for this one, because we have to do it online. We're in the process of moving buildings with the hammer, so the normal studio is no longer going to be used and we're packing stuff up, we're moving stuff out of it, so instead we're here online, still delivering you the content, even though it was memorial day yesterday. Happy memorial day to our american viewers, which makes up the bulk of our viewers, kind of sucks me back at work after a long weekend, but hopefully this show does brighten your day up a little bit. We've got Rob Pozzola in the top right corner. We've got Jeff Feinberg underneath me. We've got Kirk Evans in the bottom right the normal crew with myself. 

02:12
Jacob, I am your producer on this show and, to open things up here, we're going to be talking about Around the Horn, ending after a 23-year run. Kirk, you're similar to my age. I don't know a ton about this show. We are debating pre-recording. If you had any awareness of this show at all. 

02:33 - Kirk Evans (Host)
You don't know Around the Horn? Yeah, I barely know. I'm very familiar with Around the Horn. I would watch the last 15 minutes before PTI came on. Pti is the goat around the horn was a bit of a take it or leave it for me. I like Tony Reale but sad to hear it's going. But when PTI goes that I'll have some serious sadness about. But around the horn is what wasn't huge to me but definitely familiar with that. 

03:06 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Well, let's jump into it. So if anybody doesn't know, I'm sure you do know Around the Horn is ending after 23 years on the air and we have part of the interruption. Who gave a shout-out to Around the Horn trying to send them off? We had a lot of people upset about Around the Horn ending. We had the r slash Bill Simmons podcast Twitter account saying rip to all our childhood shows except part of the interruption, showcasing a bunch of shows that have also ended. Alongside Around the Horn, we've got one of the panelists on Around the Horn. Is it Tom Collishaw Is that how you say it, collishaw? Who, with some pointed words towards ESPN, basically taking a jab at them for more so going with former athletes rather than journalists for their content these days. We had the host who talked about the show. It's an amazing run. Other people again upset about the show ending. But ultimately, how much did this show mean to you, rob? How upset are you about this show coming to an end? 

04:01 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So I will say this is very nostalgic for me because Around the Horn really hit hard for me in my childhood. Like this was appointment viewing for me growing up. Like for a while you know you're young, right after school I'm watching Goosebumps, and then right after school I'm watching Family Matters and Full House. And then you reach a point in your life where it's right after school you throw on Around the Horn, followed by PTI, boom, boom. Like you suddenly care way too much about. You know barry bonds on base percentage, whatever the hell they were talking about. But that that was my childhood. 

04:33
I've watched thousands of hours of this show over the years. It still drives me insane that the scoring system was just tony reali handing out like random points all over the place, like how did they never incorporate any kind of fan voting? Was the show not live? Was it like too risky to give the audience any control or like I don't know? That always bothered me. But that said, I'll be honest, it did lose a lot of momentum over the years. I don't even think that's a hot take. 

05:00
Media has changed. Attention spans for people are way shorter. You've got to innovate constantly or you end up being like a show that people put on in the background while they're doing the dishes, right like that format of four journalists yelling over each other about who's more outraged by an mdp vote. That just doesn't hit the same way in 2025 as it did in 2015 and I realize the irony in that. By the way, as you watch and listen to this show, where we have a bunch of guys yelling over each other, but as a sports better. Now I've personally found myself caring way less about the opinions of journalists, and I know that sounds harsh, but if I'm listening to someone talk sports, I want to know that they can beat a market, that they have skin in the game, like the days of. 

05:47
Here's my take, because I watched the game and I feel strongly about this. That doesn't do it for me anymore, and other people might feel differently, but for me that's just nothing. Still, I'm not going to lie Seeing it go was a little bit sad. Around the Horn was a piece of media media history. It made stars out of some of these writers. It gave ESPN a totally new format. For a long time it worked, even though I hated the scoring system, but at the end of the day, I think it was time. It was a hell of a run and it's time to move on at this point so I don't really have a lot of strong opinions on this. 

06:25 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
But, Jeff, um, you're kind of at the same age as Rob. Are you sad to see this one go? 

06:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
No, but like I don't know if the show was good, I'm sure it was fine. I'm sure it's pretty much the same show that it used to be. I think Tony reality is an incredible host. Like I think he will do something, maybe even more like mainstream. I think that's how good of a host he is, like the sort of host that like our moms and grandmothers you know why sisters wouldn't mind Like I think he's a great host, so I'm not worried about his future in TV. 

06:59
I haven't watched the show in maybe 1012 years, but just speaks to you know what has changed in sports. Um, you know I get why rob doesn't care about a beat reporter as it might pertain to like a bet or like a daily you know line on a like a bet on that night's game. But I still think the guys who are around the team, when like shit's going down with the team or there's controversy around the team, and those guys have relationships. You know shit's hitting the fan inside the organization, like that's when, like, those beat reporters matter. I agree, like you know, you just have all the data now to tell you what you need to know about. You know who's playing well, who isn't. 

07:37
Um, the show's taken a lot of backlash for, like you know, people victory laughing that it's being cancelled because it's like too woke. You know I'm not culture warrior feinberg, but I I might surprise you on this. Like it's sort of like like we do a show and you know there are some topics where I'll have opinion on topics that, like, people hate, like probably despise, and then they'll hate me for it and maybe once in a while I have an opinion that they really like and a a lot of opinions that people are give or take on. They did so many shows, they did so many topics If they address woke issues a handful of times, I'm sure maybe it felt like a lot Clearly the cast got more diverse. Yeah, for sure. I'm not saying that as a bad thing. I'm sure when it first started it, you know like clearly the cast got more diverse. I'm not saying that as a bad thing. I'm sure when it first started it was probably four white guys. Now it's, you know, like everyone's involved. 

08:33
But shout out to the GOAT. And he probably left because he said ridiculous things and ESPN couldn't bring him back. But Mariotti was the GOAT of that shit. He was the GOAT. He was like 1.0 around the horn. Um, I think he ruffled a lot of feathers. He was crazy, I don't know in like a whitlock sort of crazy way, but uh, he was crazy. Yeah, he's the man. 

08:58 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I'm not gonna miss it, but I didn't watch it yeah, I totally agree, reality like you could see reality being like in like stray hands role, where like on like one of those actual major networks. But I agree with kalasha, I think the show's being replaced like I don't care that much that around the horn is gone. I probably haven't watched an episode in like seven, eight years. But the fact that they're replacing it with these like for the former players, to me I guess obviously they've hit a wide audience, but to me are just unwatchable. The only one that I really think is good is jeff teague's podcast because he's hilarious. 

09:39 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Every other athlete show to me is absolute garbage and I'd much rather around the horn stick around than you know have like shannon sharp scream at skip bayless yeah, well, I think I like this hot take culture nowadays, right, like that's what's required, because they need to cut these shows up into snippets, just like we do, and post them to social and like that's how you're generating traction. 

10:00
I think, at the end of the day, if you, if you're in sports media now, it's just important to maintain a good balance, right, like there's a, there's a spot for journalists, there's a spot for athletes, there's a spot for, you know, random hosts who like does. I think all of that matters in some capacity. It's about finding the right balance of those people at the end of the day. But ultimately, yeah, you know I I occasionally would have around the horn on on my tv while I'm working. It hasn't been appointment viewing for me in in at least a decade and I'm not sure that the younger demographic, like you kirk, like you jacob, like it's not, it's never been appointment viewing for you. So at this point, who is it catering to? And I think at this point, you know espn realizes time to move on. 

10:45 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
That shit was revolutionary at a time oh, yeah, right, like when it came and even piggybacking off of pti, which was, you know, clearly, the monster, but it was a quality lead-in for it. And that was the era with kornheiser, willbaum, where, like the beat, reporters became stars, became tv stars, columnists in major cities became tv stars yeah, and that essentially was, you know, like the breeding ground of what you know and steven a, even though he was on there, then he got fired. He came back like he was once upon a time just a columnist in philly and that was the con. Like it just gave them all a thing and it was, you know, for its time, quite interesting. But we also didn't have youtube to go like. 

11:32
Exactly just what do I want to hear being debated today? Go on the youtube. I know like the eight podcasts that might be talking about. If I don't like what, like I could even just search it and find like 10 more random ones on that topic talking about it. So we're all just you know, no one cares anymore, no one gives a shit. 

11:52 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I'm really glad you guys kind of feel this way, because all the sentiment going out to this show has been, I wouldn't say, annoying, but it's like if people watched the show it would still be on air. It's not like they're taking a popular show that's doing well and they're like now we're just gonna go for for some former athletes. If you watch the show and if people like all people coming out of the water now talk about how much they like the show, if you actually watch it would probably still be on the air I mean and listen like a lot of pretentious fuckery also came from that show. 

12:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yes, like let's not deny that aspect. But sure you get some. You know your tires get bigger, you get some air when you go on ESPN and you get that shine. That's just some natural. And while I said like I, you know, I think people are making way too much of it being like canned for being woke when they did veer off into places they shouldn't. They only had one person talking about one side. Because you work at this, you don't go on ESPN, disney Airways, abc. I should say and even mention the perspective of an of the other side and that I don't think ever helped them. But that's okay, it wasn't, the show was never supposed to be that right all right. 

13:13 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Well, before we move on to our next topic, let's talk about underdog, a presenting sponsor here. All right, quick shout out to our friends over at underdog, because if you've been watching the playoffs but you haven't been using them, then you're missing out on one of the best user experiences in the space. We've tried a lot of different apps over the years and Underdog just nails it. The interface is clean, fast and simple, but not in a watered down way. It's intuitive. You log in, you know exactly where to go and you can build entries in seconds without having to dig through five layers of nonsense. It's honestly one of those products where, the more you use it, the more you appreciate how well it's built. Whether you're playing casually or taking it seriously, it just works and you actually want to come back and use it again. We've also heard from a bunch of you and even a few sharp bettors, who said the same thing. I didn't expect to actually like this. That says a lot. So if you haven't signed up yet, now is the time. Just click the link in the description, use code circles on sign up and that'll get you up to one thousand dollars in bonus credit as a new customer. Again. That is promo code circles, right with the link below. Check it out and let us know what you think we're betting. You'll be impressed. 

14:20
Next topic stems from a conversation brought up by Bill Krackenberger online, somebody who is a bit of a seasoned veteran, I'd say, in the sports betting space. He's been a guest on the Circles Off podcast, one of the Thursday episodes pretty recently as well, but caused an absolute stir when he had this to say On Twitter. He wrote betting NBA sides are unbeatable in caps, totals and, of course, props are a different story. At beating the book and I had one of our best episodes of the season yesterday and he showcases the episode in which he discusses something like this. So hot take. I'd say let's go over to our pro NBA. Better here, kirk Evans are Are NBA sides unbeatable? 

15:07 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah. So I got sent this tweet like maybe 10 times. I tried quote tweeting it and then realized that I'm blocked by crack. He's a total LARPer at this point, like maybe he used to be good. He has truly no idea what he's talking about these days. But I would say, to know if a market is beatable, do the lines move, you know? Do the lines move off open? If the lines move off open, the market is beatable and someone is beating it. If the lines don't move, I don't know any market that exists. But if that's true, then maybe you could have the discussion of if it's not beatable but just a ridiculous statement and and not something that anyone who knows anything about the market would say yeah, uh, I don't feel the same way about crack. 

15:55 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Obviously a lot of people, um, don't like the touting stuff. I'm sure if he worked for a sports book instead of being a tout, kirk would love him because he's the sports book sympathizer of the bunch here. But uh, no, here I will say this I watched the full, I watched the full segment. Um, he did come out and say NBA sides are unbeatable, not difficult unbeatable. And look, I get the sentiment. If you're trying to beat NBA sides at full market limits, especially close, close to tip-off, it is insanely tough to do that. I'm not disagreeing with how hard it is, but the word unbeatable gets thrown around like way too loosely. In this space there's a difference between a market being hard to beat and it actually being unbeatable. Nba is not my bread and butter like it is for Kirk, but I can absolutely relate when it comes to NHL sides. Like NHL sides at full limits. They are brutal. I know very few people who are successful in that lane. I wouldn't even list myself in that category anymore. But even still, I'd never say nobody can win, because clearly someone is winning, like Kirk. 

17:01
Every day you see NBA side numbers getting hit early in the day. Those aren't just random bets. There's someone moving that number and the market is reacting. That's not noise, that's signal. That's someone who found a way to beat the market before it fully matures. And this always used to remind me of this argument I had with Spanky. 

17:22
Spanky used to say nobody beats the NFL. I'll book anyone who thinks they can beat the NFL. And it sounds good, it's strong, it's definitive. It's like you're shutting down the conversation, but it's not really true. Plenty of people beat the NFL. They just don't beat it on Sunday, 10 minutes before kickoff. That's the part that always gets lost in these conversations. Timing matters, context matters. If you're trying to beat NBA sides into circa or Chris a minute before tip, yeah, good luck. But if you're shaping lines early in the day, getting out ahead of these moving markets, that's a completely different game. So yeah, nba sides are tough, but let's cool it with the absolutes. Nowadays, the markets are hard. They're also not impossible. There's plenty of ways to win in hard markets these days. 

18:08 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I know the answer to this question, but like just to elaborate what is the benefit of, you know, betting into these very difficult markets. Like why would you bother then? Why wouldn't you just stick with the spots that are easier? 

18:19 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Well, at some point the liquidity you can get in an early market is not enough. You build your bankroll to a point where you're making X amount of money and you're like now I got to take the next step. Now it's no longer betting overnights, it's betting when limits come off the next day or it might be at limit raises. So it just becomes liquidity and at the end of the day there are still groups that are going to bet into full limits. That happens. You'll see Cir chris pinnacle. They'll all move like late sometimes and people be like oh, who's betting this? Well, the best groups are betting it. That's what's happening at that point in time. But I hate the word unbeatable. In sports betting everything is beatable in some capacity, and especially markets like this where you know limits increase over time. 

19:03 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
There's plenty of people who could still beat nba sides so kirk and rob have kind of given their opinions on the crack man. But, jeff, I'll put you on the spot. What? What is your opinion of bill krackenberg? Have you really derived an opinion? What do you think of him? 

19:20 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I, I don't know enough I in times to get angry at the things that he might say that would like irk, a current pro, now the unbeatable thing. That's probably not true. Just quickly, I have nothing actual to add on that, but I just remember the last time we were in studio NBA playoffs were going on. I just asked Kirk a question about like, like betting it differently with such fewer games, and only because I'm like an aware consumer and I enjoy sports and the games when there's only two or three, they stay on like the home page of like the books all day. I noticed the lines were moving and I just mentioned that to kirk. So, like, surely the lines are moving. Someone is getting the right side of them. All sides seem hard. 

20:07
As for crack, I'm a fan but like I don't know enough maybe to get angry when he, you know over, exaggerates or, you know, says something that would bother the true pro. But it's a jolly, jolly fat guy Waxing poetic about old time Vegas stories. I enjoyed the the circles off episode where he was on with Pazola, you know, just being cracked. So, yeah, that would be my, my take on it. 

20:42 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
All right, glad to hear it. Let's go to the next conversation, which is around ring culture, which I think has mostly dominated conversations in the NBA recently. But it is like spilling over into other sports as well, and it was a conversation that was started off again by Jack Mack, cfb of Barstool, who said ring culture has ruined so many aspects of sports, band, a fandom. It's exhausting of exhausting's exhausting. Of course, the main goal is to win it all, but the idea you can't celebrate wins along the way is so, so, so lame, especially for underdogs. You're only supposed to celebrate if the small percentage chance thing happens. Then he also says beware of celebration shamers in your life. 

21:21
If somebody is mad at the Knicks fans for celebrating the second biggest upset in NBA playoff history, their overall negativity may be holding you back in your own life. We'll teach my children about this. So first of all, he says second biggest upset in NBA playoff history. That's not true, because he elaborated and said second biggest upset in NBA playoff history since the turn of the millennium. But that's also not true because there is one more, sorry. So the number one is Warriors, eight seed over the Mavericks. There's actually another. 

21:53
I believe there's another big one. 

21:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
This is just semantics though, jay, like it's a big upset. No, it's a big upset. 

22:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Not part of the conversation, but he's talking about the Knicks beating the Celtics in round two, which was a very large upset. Are you on the side of this or the side of Darren Revell? I'm sure Rob is on his side. You do this after they win it all, not before game one of the Eastern Conference. This is after the New York Knicks had renamed streets across New York City for each of the players on the playoff roster and, of course, we're now in the conference finals. At the time of recording it's end of game, we've had game three, so it's 2-1 Pacers, but ultimately the Knicks are really happy to be this far. The Knicks fans are really happy to be in the conference finals, whereas, you know, for a team like the Celtics, let's say, this would just be another step. 

22:49 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
They've still got more work to do, of course, but this discourse in general, rob, I know you feel strongly about it. Well, listen, I was. I was already completely with jack on this and then I saw the rebelle tweet and I couldn't be even more with jack on this. I hate when people stomp on someone else's celebration because it didn't result in a championship, like that's what fandom is. It's emotional. It's not some like fucking hedge fund where you only cash out at the maximum return. Like I personally literally cried when John Tavares scored in overtime against Tampa Bay to win a first round NHL playoff series. My wife still laughs at me for this. This is not the cup, not the conference finals. A single first round playoff series. Because I hadn't seen the Leafs do that in my entire adult life. It mattered a lot to me. It was emotional. You know I put a picture up in our old studio now which we're not about. There was always that Tavares goal behind me in the studio and people are like oh, they come to Twitter, like act like you've been there before, bro, I haven't been there before. That's the point. 

23:50
Like people treat sports like it's some binary thing. Either you win it all or nothing matters. I think that mindset absolutely fucking sucks. Like, most fan bases don't win titles. That's just the math of how leagues work. So what Like are we all supposed to sit in silence until, like, the parade floats through the city? Fucking no, I get that. There's a line Like if the Lakers hang a banner for winning a play-in game, yeah, that's weird. If people are going nuts for, that Context matters. But the Knicks come on Like this team has been through literal hell. Let their fans rename every fucking street in manhattan if it makes them happy. Let people feel some joy. It doesn't have to be hyper efficient, it just has to be real. So yeah, I hate the celebration shamers. If someone's that bitter about other people being happy, like it's pathetic in my opinion. So I'm. I'm with Jack Mack on this one for sure. 

24:48 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Jeff, you're big charges fan. Let's say Herbert wins. Let's say Herbert wins first, he has. He hasn't won a playoff game, right? So what do? 

24:59 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
we do, don't remind them. 

25:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
When he wins his first, are you going to be? How excited are you going to be? 

25:04 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Herbert wins a playoff game after everyone's saying he's never going to win a playoff game and then he loses the next playoff game. I'm allowed to see that as progress? Yes, I am. As usual, I don't do the homework well here so I didn't look through it. But I saw this rings debate and I guess I didn't know that it was about celebration. I thought it was more about like, um, like roster construction. 

25:30
As a fan and I'll be honest, like as a kid, you're so naive and everyone's a superstar. Anyone with like a little headliner or starting lineup action figure is a superstar. The guy everyone's got someone in the all-star game, like that guy's a superstar. No, you get older, you realize how the league works. Like, no, like you know Mitch Richmond on the Spurs, great player, not a superstar, like anyhow. 

25:59
But that being said, as a fan of a team like just end me I am most upset and Pazola's probably experienced this when, like, my favorite team is 500, just misses the playoffs yeah, in no man's land in the draft, essentially the Pittsburgh Steelers. Now, like, I don't want to turn this into like a Tomlin thing, but like as a fan, as someone cheers for, like the Blue Jays, the Chargers, I have to enjoy Jacob. I have to enjoy. Phillip Rivers played to get to the Super Bowl. We had to beat Manning and Brady in back-to-back weeks we didn't do it and in the times we beat Manning we didn't beat Brady. Or then Roethlisberger came in Like fuck man Winning's hard, like that's all. But you better believe like I enjoyed the journey and as a sports fan, you're promised nothing. There's no fucking happy ending promised Like it just isn't. 

26:59
I'm on the wrong side of 40. I'd like to die around 80. So we're halfway done and nothing. Side of 40. I'd like to die around 80. So we're halfway done and nothing's promised. And a lot of the young boys see my nephew, the young kids in this city like it for them. They're learning the heartbreak. They're learning the maple leaf heartbreak. 

27:17 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
They're learning it tough, they're learning it early it brings me back to uh, when the blue jays won in the divisional round against the texas rangers, the bautista bat flip I my entire life. Up until that point, the jays were like not in the playoffs. They hadn't made the playoffs since they won the world series in 93. This was like 2014 to 16 range, I think this. This happened in 2016. But just like they hadn't made the playoffs my entire life, and then winning a playoff round, especially in that capacity, like yeah, people are going to celebrate that. 

27:50 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
There's different levels to it, but we're not Boston, unless you're a Boston sports fan or one of these teams that always seems to get something once a decade, like it's it. We're all in this, we're all in this pain of fandom, but we're always back again. There's always next year, I don't know. Fuck ring. I like, yeah, like I. The teams you cheer for win one or two rings. You're shoving it back down people's foot too, don't forget it, right. 

28:20 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I agree with Jeff that like I really don't cheer Like the Raptors right now is the worst team to be a fan of, of like no path to a championship and getting to be like whatever, maybe the seventh seed if you're lucky. Like that ring culture to me I don't dislike, like I don't mind wanting to build towards winning a championship and I don't want my teams to build towards being a championship and I don't want my teams to build towards being a first round exit. But like I think in life typically anyone who like shits on people for being too like enthusiastic about something is just really lame. Like the knicks. It's not like the knicks won this series knowing they're gonna to lose the next one. They think they can still win the championship and they're just really excited that they won the series. 

29:09
That to me is totally fine and great and I actually love watching New York when they're all losing their minds. I think it's fun. So yeah, I think in that sense, huge. Agree with Jack Mack Like oh, you shouldn't be celebrating this much Like why, who cares? They're having fun, it's a good thing. 

29:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
And just like how you know a lot of bets, we'll bring it right back to betting. For you guys, the profit is you pro bettors. There's got to be enough squares idiots in the marketplace to get it. You know Well, guess what, for all you Patriots fans or blue blood organizations, the league doesn't exist without the goddamn minnows of the Chargers and teams like that to allow you to have your league and beat up on and be your champion and have your great comeback victories over, like we're all part, like the ecosystem of your rings. You put it in our face, but we are the lifeblood of your ability to do that, so let us have our moments when they do happen. I do think the subway signs are a little obnoxious, but it's the conference final and it's the goddamn. 

30:21 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Knicks Exactly. You've got to understand the path of the franchise. Like this is what fandom is about. There will be people that go through life cheering for a team that will never win a championship. What are they supposed to do? Never celebrate a win, like this, is it's insane behavior. 

30:36
Like sure, for some people that, like, if you're a boston sports fan, you've seen the patriots, the celtics, the Bruins, like, and you've had all these championships in a short period of time, sure you might laugh at the other markets who are like, oh yeah, you won, like a series, a couple series. You're going nuts, but they haven't experienced this. So what? What is the point of fandom if you cannot celebrate the wins, even if they are little wins? Right, I? This happens in soccer markets all the time as well. It's like well, you only won, like, only won, like you know, the Copa del Rey or the you know, or you know, it's the Europa League, not the Champions League. It's who cares? You won a trophy. Like, celebrate the trophy. Who gives a shit what it is? It's a trophy that you can want and celebrate. I can't stand the people who are like you know that shit on that type of stuff, like, let people enjoy their life. It's an exciting time to be a Knicks fan. Let them have their excitement. 

31:25 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Your favorite football team is going to win two playoff games and then lose in a conference final and Chief fan is going to shit on you for enjoying the second round. 

31:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I know that's the state it is nowadays. 

31:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
They beat you in the second round. They're just going to shit on you, don't you know better. They were like they beat you in the second round. They're just going to like shit, like don't you know better. But I'm like yo chief fan. I remember when Brody Croyle was your quarterback. I remember how you acted when you won your first playoff games. 

31:56 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yep. 

31:57 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
There's just like different tiers to it. You mentioned, like your Open League championship, rob. Like as a Manchester United fan growing up, united would win the Premier League every year. If they didn't win it one year, they'd just win it the next year. Now they haven't won the Premier League since I think it's 2012. Now the Europa League is a huge thing for them. They lost the final last week, but 15 years ago I would have scoffed at teams winning the Europa League. But now, in a different state, that would have been humongous and it was like really tough to watch them lose that game. So you're allowed to find enjoyment in things. Don't let people say you can't. 

32:33 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'm one of those people. You guys make the joke about me not taking my nephew to a Chargers game. I want them to lose. We want the draft pick. The draft pick is equity. This thing is nowhere. If they can't contend, I want them to be horrible. But I understand others franchises who, like you know, they just want to be as competitive. Right for the team to be in it the whole year. It keeps interest. I understand like from an ownership way might make sense. But I appreciate even if teams screw it up when there is like actual commitment to, like you know, the the process. I know it didn't work for philly, but I I back that form of roster building now, I know this is not the normal show setting. 

33:18 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
We're not in studio, we're doing this online. But I promise you guys, for every show that we do here at the hammer, especially with this circle back content, a ton of effort is going in from a lot of people. So we'd really appreciate it that if you're enjoying the show so far that you do hit that like button, or if you're listening in audio form, that you do rate and review five stars, you want to keep on pushing this channel upward. In order to do that, we need your support. And hey, if you're watching on youtube, then make sure you've also hit that subscribe button. Let's drive this channel up to 20 000 subs. But let's get back to the episode now. 

33:50
Next up a few people going at diana russini because she inaccurately or falsely or incorrectly reported the nfl's vote on the tush push, because hours before the vote actually happened she reported this, she said hours away from the owners' vote surrounding the future of the tush push. I'm told both the league's competition and players' health and safety committees have voted to ban the play. Despite the Eagles' best efforts, the tush push is likely on the way out. Sources say we learned a few hours later that the vote actually did not go through to ban the tush push. I believe the vote was 32 to 10 in favor of keeping the tush push in the NFL. 

34:32
Pete Nova here at Supernova 38 says it's time to have a conversation about Diana Rossini, for a trend of inaccurate reporting such as this and football is life at football is 54078. There's a golden post for our old takes exposed. Diana Rossini deleted her report from earlier this morning saying the tush push would be banned. So I'll just quickly say I really don't like deleting your incorrect reporting. First of all, you got to own it and the people defending her in the replies like if she needed defending she would have have just left it up, but she didn't, um, so let's go to you, rob. Uh, you were unhappy about this in our group chat when it did happen, so let's hear from you here listen, everybody gets things wrong sometimes, right. 

35:18 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But russini has developed what I would call like a book at trent type of track record right now in recent years. Right Like it's almost like she's guessing. 

35:28
I don't know if she's plugged into sources that are wrong or she's just making things up, but this is starting to feel like less and less like journalism and more like improv. And she works for the New York Times. Right, like what happened to journalistic integrity. If you're going to be constantly wrong, there should be some kind of accountability, like especially when you're working for a legacy outlet. This isn't some like burner account firing off theories. It's a high profile national reporter pushing narratives that directly influence perception and, more importantly for people like me, that at times influence the betting market. So, with that said, this may be contradictory to what I've already said, because I think I think this is like bush league type of stuff, but this is the part of the betting game that I actually love, like the sport within the sport. 

36:23
In the NFL especially, it's all about figuring out which reporters are legit, who's just passing along some spin from an agent who's speculating, who actually knows what the hell they're talking about, because nowadays the market reacts to everything. You see a Schefter tweet and the line's gonna move like a half point instantly. Prop markets move. Honestly, I find that frustrating, but I also kind of find it fun at times it's noise, but there's, there's actionable noise as well and to me that creates an opportunity in the market. You look at we just passed the NFL draft right and parsing all this information in real time and figuring out who's got good reporting, who doesn't that creates opportunity. 

37:07
So I hate when beat reporters are wrong. It just like frustrates me as a person. But in the world of betting I think it's kind of part of the puzzle and it's it's not necessarily a problem of itself. So I have like very conflicting viewpoints on this. If I was just an average fan, it's so annoying when you read stuff like that it turns out to be incorrect. But russini, sadly, for a very long time now has been horrible like this. Isn't the first time this has happened. There is a a long track record of her just being dead wrong in a lot of instances of her just being dead wrong in a lot of instances. 

37:47 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
How do you guys feel about Diana Rossini? What's your experiences with her NFL reporting? 

37:50 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I don't know. I wouldn't know her track record at all and when I actually first saw this story I thought it was totally a nothing of. She reported it and maybe got it wrong. I know that the Eagles owner, I believe, made like a big speech at the meeting so I was kind of thinking like, oh, this is like a total nothing burger but one. The fact that the vote was 35-10, like that's not even close, like they didn't swing 25 votes or whatever. You would need their 13 votes in that meeting and then deleting it is a crazy bad luck. So, yeah, I wouldn't have. If you had told me Diana Rossini, I maybe would have known she was a football reporter, but I know nothing of her. But deleting it is really bad. So yeah, that's a bad luck. 

38:43 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I mean she had a save. I think Kurt got the numbers wrong because there are only 32 votes total and it missed 22 10, right, yeah, sorry, 22 10 yeah it's pretty lopsided right like it needed a super majority and it was two votes off from past oh, so it was close. 

38:57
So it was close okay just saved her bacon and been like things. A couple teams changed and you know like in any vote, things happen. People go into the ballot box and sometimes do something different than you could tell. Like that. There's just like an out there. To Rob's point well, yes, the New York Times owns the athletics, so she can wear the New York Times times label, but you know, call it her new york times. 

39:27
Where her free pass, though, has come from friends, is that a lot of her inaccuracies have involved the new york jets. But she simultaneously gets saved by the fact that jets are a freak show and there's a lot of like shit show aspects that go on there. So when the things go wrong and there's misses, it's like it all just comes back to oh, the jets, they're a mess. If she was doing this with a team that was less inclined to be a inorganizational shit show, there would be so much more backlash. But go ask any hardened nfl fan who loves the new york jets. Um, they hate her more than anyone, but they feel like they're drowning and no one hears them because we just look at jets fans is like like who cares if someone got a jet story wrong? All we know is something is so rotten in your organization like we don't care about the semantics of it that you're upset about yeah, I think with a lot of like. 

40:25 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Every league has different levels of reporting and you have people that you know are truly reliable. They put something out there. You know with certainty or near certainty that it's right. Right, funny enough, before this even happened, like we have a forward progress. Uh, group chat on telegram with all of our guys. When russini posted this it was posted in our group chat. I'm pretty sure it might have actually been another group chat now that I think about it. But somebody said before it even happened like looks like the tush push will be back next year, like as a joke, because that's the amount of credibility that they have in the space nowadays. So it's really not surprising. But it is kind of sad that we've gotten to this point. 

41:05
Like journalism used to mean something. 

41:07
There used to be some sort of integrity there. Now agents are paying off, report, like there's so much shit that's going on in the space nowadays and, um, it's like the fake news era. But as long as you're able to parse it at least as a sports better again, just trying to tie it back to sports betting, I think it does create opportunity for you because you will see, like literally I mean, the perfect example was the one, um, that we covered on circle back one of the earlier episodes of Spanky's Trader, you know, making up a fake college football news story. That got picked up right and listen there's. I still don't quite understand that story. There's a lot of uh, a lot of pieces that don't fit together there, but the, the idea that somebody could just tweet something that would move a market that's the, that's the, the day and age that we live in with, with, like, people reacting instantaneously, and I think if you, if you have a knowledge base of who's right, who's wrong, who's been reliable, that can really serve you well in sports betting nowadays. 

42:07 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Um, so that for that reason, selfishly, it kind of works in my favor a lot of times but she gets a lot of free passes and I'll say I'll call it out for what it is like. She's the highest ranking female insider in the nfl yep, I don't even know that there's a close second. I wouldn't put the sideline reporter females in that group. But in terms of like an insider, a newsbreaker, she is so far ahead um, and it's given her an advantage. 

42:41
I'm an athletic subscriber so I see a lot of her stuff and I am obsessed with nfl minutiae so I read a lot of the articles and you know she taught like she's always speaking to ownership at least that's how she portrays it right all over the league and listen when a lot of these, when you're an owner and it's like the feet, like I don't know. Sure, I'll talk to the, the female reporter, I don't know. I think she gets a lot of leg ups. So I don't. I'm not saying she's um didn't earn it by working hard, but I think she has a lot of advantages and it's a shame that she is just burning a lot of equity or she's wrong more than anybody. But go see what happens to rapaport's Menchies or Shifter when they step out of line, just a little bit out of line. 

43:30 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
What happens to Shifty, but Rappaport's in that same category. Now, for those who follow, I would never willingly move to make a bet based off of an Ian Rappaport tweet. It just wouldn't happen. The guy is wrong so often nowadays. So that's another good example. But I don't know. 

43:47
It's just a different era now and maybe because we Jeff, we used to produce radio Right and I don't remember like a time more than a decade ago where there was a lot of false information out there, like Like we could trust back in the day I mean, I sound like a boomer, but we could trust that if a reporter put something out there, it was very, very likely that it was going to be correct and real. We used to book shows around that stuff. Nowadays it's like Wild Wild West. Basically, you say whatever you want on the internet. There's no accountability for anything. And again, as a sports better, I think that works to my advantage and maybe it does for kirk, because he may be able to parse some nba information better as well. But just as a fan, it's a little bit. 

44:33 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
it's just annoying honestly, just really annoying well, let's go to your comments in just a second here. Before we do, we're going to hear from one of our sponsors here edge boost. Ever had your deposit blocked right before a big bet? Ever needed cash at 2 am for another shot at the tables, but you hit your ATM limit? Listen, I've had experiences like this, so I'm sure you have had them as well. You never know when you're gonna get that message about a big edge somewhere. You've gotta fill your account quickly before it evaporates and you just can't get that money in there in time. Your bank blocks your deposit. Maybe you get the deposit through, but it takes 30 minutes for that deposit to process and all of a sudden, you can't get down on that huge edge that you wanted. Well, that situation arises no more with Edgeboost. 

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46:14
First comment comes from at Jim in the country 3849. This is a tough one. Jeff Says Nadu is right. Grp is way played out. Guy is a clown. Stop giving him attention. Jeff, you feel strongly about the GRP content. Let's hear your reply. 

46:30 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I mean, I don't think it's played out. It certainly can be a little draining, but you know we all wear it and then, exhausted from it, and then he'll start a video with a fresh, letting you know like the state of the hair gel and you're like, ok, kind of pulls you back in again. And you're like, okay, kind of pulls you back in again. I get like, if some people are done with it, but people actually do enjoy it, they really are into the nothingness that is GRP. Speaking of GRP, we did NBA sides. He's having a tough time with them, even had to write in the big letters no more NBA sides. And then he did that. He ended up on the pacers in the game three, which which didn't go well, but I support my king. 

47:16
Listen, we've taken a lot of heat here. But you can't. I'll fight back on that. Like sure, there are times where we step in line or we go overboard on a topic. You know the spaces and maybe we should have reigned that in sooner. Guilty, guilty, but get out of the mentions when george doesn't end up until the chopping block. Yeah, like, get out of here. It's an hour and a half show and you're guys yelling at us because he ends up in the chopping block and I'm gonna do a couple minutes. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't get to decide that. 

47:49 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's not fair yeah, well, listen, everyone's entitled to their opinion. I know this all started with nadu. He's not you know, he's kind of like not sold on george. I think george's original stick stick excuse me will hold up forever, like the notebook, the videos, the snake hunting, all that stuff. To me that's gold, and I think that's reflected when you look at the engagement numbers he gets for his following on twitter. He gets tons of comments, likes, like he is. He is really and I don't think he does it like he wakes up in the morning being like I'm gonna do three videos today to try to get a thousand views. I don't think that happens. 

48:25
But I will say, on the George front, he started appearing in a lot more spaces, he started navigating into new lanes and he kind of lost me a little bit with a lot of that stuff. Like the first time he was in a Twitter spaces for an hour and a half, it was fun. Then he showed up every single night and I'm like no, like this is repeating himself. So I think it's about finding a balance. Ultimately, I am a GRP fan from an entertainment point of view. I will say, though, he does more things now that I consider to be a miss than he used to do, and I still like the guy. I think he's fucking hilarious and I think he's organically hilarious. As I can see, jeff wants to jump back in here. 

49:06 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Listen, overexposure doesn't work for anyone yeah, for anyone. There's once upon a time. Listen got a lot of things people asked me to do. Content, did a little too much content. I had nothing else to say and I felt I was overexposed and I didn't have enough things to say. Sometimes, even at the current rate, I don't have enough things to say. 

49:26
But like he is so innocent and authentic, who would put it out there? Like he goes out, picks up pizza and a salad last night and he has to let us know his mom paid. Anyone whose mom is painting isn't putting that in the tweet, right? They're just saying I thought we picked up pizza and salad for dinner from this great pizza spot. Like he is so innocent and he is so authentic that, like you said, the original shtick I don't think can can grow old. The summer might be grating as he tries to sell a pick package, uh, but I think there'll be enough people who just is. I think to do is or I've mentioned other people mentioned that are just going to want to like thank him for the content. In the same way, some people subscribe to a sub stack. They're going to be like, once in a while, I'm going to buy a pick from George. I don't even know if I'm going to tail the pick. I probably wouldn't. But George, you've been good, you're doing the internet right by me. 

50:23 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Here's a hundo. Yes, I'm curious where Kirk stands on this as well, because I don't think. I don't think Kirk is a George guy. 

50:30 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, so I haven't muted on Twitter, so I don't get very much George content. I actually kind of like where I'm at with George now I get to see the best stuff on this show and hear Jeff analyze it, and when that's the George content, it's great, great. But like it wasn't even like I was frustrated with him or didn't like him. It was just like my entire twitter feed was george. At one point I'm like okay, I just don't want this anymore. So I muted him and and I think it was the right decision. But I'm not like ever, oh, like I. I think he's like a bad guy. I get the content and when it's funny, it is funny, but like there are points where it's funny, it is funny, but like there are points where it's just so much. 

51:11 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Well. But to your point, Kirk, about there being so much George content like that to me, is the proof in the pudding that, like people, twitter is serving that content because people want to see that content. For the most part, he's definitely polarizing. Listen, at the end of the day, no one's going to agree on on everyone, whether they like them or hate. It comes down to different personality. I think george is highly entertaining. I just think to jeff's point as well. It's maybe gone like a little. He's too much in the spotlight at this point where, uh, I would like to see him just tone it back. The breakfast pictures are great fucking love that shit. The videos holding people accountable in the space while he's gonna sell pics himself love that. 

51:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
That's such a good shtick overall, but it's a little too much at this point the shtick of a guy feeling like he can master nfl sides by living in while living in his mom's basement in the midwest is it can't get old, it just can't get old and football season will just breed like new, new life, new, new life into it, obviously, but we're calling it a shtick, jeff, and it's actually not a shtick. 

52:22 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's what. That's why I think I, I, I gravitate to because it's all real. Yeah, this, you know that it a stick to me is like I guess it can be real, but in most cases I perceive it as someone who's like kind of putting on an act. He's not doing that, and to me that's where I draw the line. 

52:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
So anyways, I know I didn't mean schtick then, just like that character arc, yes, of a grown man in the Midwest thinking he dominates NFL sides, when you could bet like hundreds of thousands on these sides and truly show your expertise. If you are, yeah, maybe there'll be a point where he gets old. For me it's happened. 

53:05 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
For others I'm not there yet, but I might be the last to notice next comment comes from tommy david verbal, who says pazola said it for me, but kirk does sound like a sportsbook sympathizer, and you also said that today rob on the show. So, kirk, uh, how do you respond? 

53:24 - Kirk Evans (Host)
yeah, it's just a ridiculous statement. I think people mistake sympathizer with realist. I understand it's not that I think these sports books are like incredible companies that I like I would say I'm pretty anti sports book generally, but I also understand, like no one's saying you know what? What Walmart should just decrease all their prices and not care about profits. Like I understand that they're a business operation with a goal to make profits. If you want to complain about it, complain about the regulation. But again, these sportsbooks are there to make money and that's what they are and all they really do is prey on addicts. So, like these companies, that entire goal is to wipe out people's net worth. Don't care about the fairness of you being limited on a $7 prop, like it's not shocking to me. 

54:19 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yes, well, like, while Kirk is like a hundredth percentile sports book simp, I'm probably like 60th percentile sports book simp. I tend to gravitate towards that side. But I think, with me and Kirk, because we've been in the game and like we're doing this for our livelihood, you just come to at least in my own personal position you just come to accept like a lot of the state of the industry as part of the game, like it's part of the game. You're going to get limited and like, and you know, if I take a step back, I do kind of think it's unfair to the players. But again to Kirk's point, it's like they're operating in an environment where they're allowed to do this. Of course they're going to do it right, like, I think the beef should be with the regulators in a lot of instances. But no, definitely Kirk goes way overboard with the simping. There's no, I think out about. 

55:12 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I think Rob, I think Rob on a non-sports book side. 

55:15
I think I think Rob is leaning into this take so much because he wants me to be the sports book sympathizer, so like he doesn't have that, that reputation as well. But no, I just it just I don't know. It just doesn't really make sense to me. I feel like people put sports books in this bucket of like, like no one really looks at other companies with the same lens, like again. And then also no one ever talks about okay, like universal limits. Let's say what would happen? Would there be way less offerings? Would these companies make way less money? Would then the universal limits be really small? 

55:55
It's just, I don't know. I just think that people feel this weird, like they're owed something from these sports books, and I just don't view it that way. And also, again, if you want to bet, like most of these people complaining are odds jammers, who are, you know, seeing a notification on a screen and in irving, or or seeing oh, plus three percent value, you know there are places that will take your money. You know, just come better, pin better, chris, better, uh, exchanges, like if you can bet there and you can bet a lot of money there, so do I. 

56:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't like that. There's a sports book. I just realized I thought I was bad. Nope, I can make any $17 parlay I want. I want an outright golfer at 60 to one. I can find anyone to parlay them with $17. We're in. Yeah, I get it. I just think you guys also have I said this before and I'm probably in like a hyper niche, like minority of like aware consumer with access to smarter bettors, but maybe not playing like the professional stakes of a pro bettor. So that puts me in a bit of a rabbit hole. That's fine, but you guys get again. You guys get limited and you have this whole. I don't want to speak out of turn and you get mad at me, but you have an infrastructure of beards Like you have a whole system of them. 

57:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I have to publicly deny that. I'm sorry. 

57:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
That's fine, publicly on the record denying. I expect you publicly deny that. I'm sorry, jeff, that's fine, publicly on the record denying. I expect you to deny it. You should deny it. 

57:31 - Kirk Evans (Host)
This is where I'll agree with Jeff and the general public of if I was, even if I was, like an aware consumer. But let's say I was anywhere between you know, half a percent EV to negative two and a half percent, and then my sports books started limiting me, like there to me. You have a lot of arguments as to like this is bullshit and shouldn't happen and that's annoying, and you're obviously getting caught in like a spot where they the sports books also probably wouldn't want to ban you but they can. Just they probably picked up on a couple things you do and that's fucking bullshit and you should be able to complain about that. But the guy who's sitting at Odds Jam every day, you know arbing Lithuanian hockey, I don't have that much sympathy for Yep. 

58:23 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
And final comment. Sorry, do you want one more thing to do, Jeff? 

58:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
No, I agree with Kirk. 

58:31 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Last one we have here Luxury Rides For you says the consideration of attending Bet Bash ended the minute I heard that an NFL preview panel with two of the biggest clowns in the industry was an actual thing. I live in Vegas and even for free. It's too much. All credibility gone. The Taylor Mathis invite was bad enough. This is shark jumping. I live in Vegas and even for free. It's too much. All celebrity, all credibility excuse me gone. The Taylor Mathis invite was bad enough. This is shark jumping, Rob. Uh, what is the cast in question here? What are people upset about? 

58:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
yeah, so I think I don't know if this has been confirmed or it's just a rumor that was brought up, but it's. It's Zilbert and GRP doing an NFL panel, I thought. 

59:05 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I think it is confirmed. Like Spanky said it on a space didn't seem to be Joker. 

59:11 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't know, listen, I get it in terms of, like, the credibility of the event. I understand why someone from the outside looking in might see that there's going to be like five other panels running at the same time that are going to be important to sports bettors in some capacity. I don't know, I think it's just a, an extreme um, and also like people are going to go watch that I don't know what in this day and age. I think that having that oddly, having that type of event at bet bash will draw more people than it will deter, and I think that's ultimately what it comes down to. But listen, I get the perspective, but I, I, I get it. I, I totally understand where he's coming from. I think that's ultimately what it comes down to. But listen, I get the perspective, but I get it. I totally understand where he's coming from. I think it's just like maybe a little bit too overboard and like I'll never go because of this type of panel. I think it's extreme. 

01:00:00 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Listen, it's a bit of a he's advertising. 

01:00:03
It's like a cherry on top. It's not the thing. It's like a bit of a car crash that is literally attached to probably an open bar where no one in the room is taking it seriously. If you can't read through what it is, then that's probably on you. That being said, I did mention to you, rob, that I thought spanky maybe like, did some things that might alienate the hardcores over the last few months, um, but it seems like he's realized that and, like you, don't see him like without like any more of that stuff, at least on the spaces. That's probably smart for spanky, um, but bet, bash like anything else. 

01:00:42
The thing about it is I'm not going. I don't think it's for me. I do think one year I will get out there. But everyone that I know that goes or is going is going back and it's like a restaurant, like if you think the restaurant sucked or the food sucked or the it wasn't worth, it had the value algorithm said hell, no, you don't go back Like. This is no different. So everyone I know who goes is going back and I don't know of a bigger like. Compliment to something. 

01:01:17 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Well said. 

01:01:19 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Let's move to our next topic then, jumping back into the topics here, and this post by VEASAN just an innocent post caused a huge storm. So VEASAN Live. They had Derek Stevens and Jeff Benson of Circa, mike Pozzuolo of Circa, on a panel here to discuss the prize pool for Circa Million, which is the same as 6 million, and Circa Survivor, which goes from 10 million to 15 million. But one thing people notice about the photos. Now I encourage you to go find these photos as well. Jeff Benson, sitting in the middle, looks awfully shorter than everyone else on the panel. 

01:02:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He looks like mini me. Look at this. 

01:02:02 - Kirk Evans (Host)
He looks like he's 5'1", 93 pounds. 

01:02:06 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
He does look like a baby in this shot. 

01:02:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He does remind me of. 

01:02:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Boss Baby with this shot here, like just like Derek Stevens, like towering over him, like it looks like he's like Benson's at, like his shoulders here. And Derek Stevens even talked about it. He said the world's largest football content announcement has been trumped by the same broken chair in the VEASAN studio. It's been broken for five years and shows another photo, which is not as egregious, of somebody in the middle chair who is a little bit shorter, but man Benson. Here. Rob, you said for every 1000 likes this this tweet gets, I'll make Jeff Benson 10% smaller in the photo. Let's even get him down to joey knish's roi zero. Um, rob, I'm sure you've met benson. Uh, is he short in person? 

01:02:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
he is so benson is small, but he's not that small, which makes the whole thing really funny. I do want to say, like kind of buried in the announcement, as steven said steven said right, like circa, I think, deserves some pretty serious credit for what they've been able to do with these football contests. We're at a point now where no one is doing it like that, year after year they're trying to raise the bar, it's not just with guarantees and not just with prize pools, but like overall structure, adding new survivor contests. Like the ambition is there and I think that they've made these like pillars in the football betting calendar, which is huge and we shouldn't take that for granted. There's no rake, there's no hidden nonsense. They just build these things that are fair and actually cater to real bettors, and I think that's unheard of in the space. So they're not our sponsor, but I did want to mention that. That said, they've added another contest now, and now that these contests are growing, they do come with the unfortunate side effect of what I will call the grifter inflation economy. Like you finished 27th one time in the circa millions and suddenly your twitter bio is top 30, circa millions finisher congratulations. Like now you can go sell a 250 picks package because he got hot in one november. I look at fezik, for example. Right, for years I thought he was a two time super contest champ. Apparently we're up to like six now. I don't know if we're counting like yahoo leagues and basement poker games. I don't know what's being counted because computer bob is tracking him. He's down 52 units this season as of recording. At some point the belt gets taken away, even though that picture of him holding a big check is going to remain on the website forever. So that is the unfortunate side effect of all these contests. 

01:04:44
But with this photo, benson I've met him several times. This guy looks like it literally looks like he's been photoshopped into this picture. I've met him. He's not that small like he. He is roughly. You know he's a skinny guy. I would guess he's 5'7, 5'8. They did him so dirty with that like put Benson, uh, in the Derek Stevens chair. That way Derek and him are like the same height. Give the man some elevation. Man like a booster seat, a fucking stack of losing pick sheets, something. Who like who was watching this and said this is great. He's gonna have to endure this forever now and Benson is the type of guy that can handle a joke. But I mean, if it were me, I would not be very happy about this picture circulating and being made fun of non-stop. 

01:05:33 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
This man was done extremely dirty extremely if, rob, as if you would have put, like john levy, in the broken chair at the score okay, yeah, the ceo probably doesn't get. 

01:05:44 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Why don't they have another? 

01:05:45 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
chair. That that's what I'm thinking. Yeah, the guy owned I mean, Derek Stevens is the best. I was at Circa for my first time last year. I thought it was outstanding. I've never even been to that part of Vegas before. I had a great time. And you see Derek throw the first pitch at the A's game last week. 

01:06:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Oh, he fucking ripped a strike right down the middle, right over the dish Dude Like Derek Stevens, top shelf great guy also. 

01:06:15 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
He's not going in that little chair, but you'd think he would like throw an intern 200 bucks and say head to Staples, like, just get something new here. That's all I got. I'm excited to join the contest again. My friends are buzzing um. Other than that, I do like the argument, though rob a hundred entries into the other one might be more valuable than a one for a hundred thousand next time I think oh sorry no, I I think um other than getting a new chair. 

01:06:46 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I do agree. Agree with Rob that like the Circa one, it's cool to see as much as we go back to everyone saying I'm a sports book sympathizer, this is just like a sports book actually doing a really cool thing and it like way elevating their brand and it's really good for consumers as well. And Survivor specifically has like started to leak into not just like niche gambling circles, like people know about Circus Survivor. So it's cool to see just like a sports book take a chance on something and it like be absolutely worked out as better than I bet they could have possibly imagined. 

01:07:26 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think just the last point on the Benson stuff. Benson is very combative on Twitter and I think he's earned the ability to do so because they offer a pretty fair product to people. But he's gone after people in spaces before he's quote, tweeted people before and literally no one knows that this was like a broken small chair. They think this is a real picture of him. So everyone that he's gone after now has like free ammunition, like Bo Wagner, I didn't think about that. 

01:07:54
Bo Wagner tweeted about it and I'm paraphrasing, but it was something along the lines of like this is the guy that's been, you know, like they have all this ammunition now and he can never set the record straight. It's just that's the shame in it. It's funny from the outside, looking in 100 like when I saw the picture, I might have had tears rolling down. It was so funny. But when you think about it from his perspective, it's kind of a shame. I I do feel for him that, uh, now, all these guys that have been he's been roasting for years, they're like this is the fucking guy that was roasting us. He's like four foot ten, eighty pounds, like you know. It's like he's okay. 

01:08:32 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
He's gotta ask for a better chair. When he sees it, he's gotta say, hey, I gotta get something better than this. 

01:08:37 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's what he's gotta do but you're not gonna do that in front of your ceo, you're not gonna say, fuck this, I'm not doing the segment on this little little chair but just ask for a different chair or, like you you know, mention it on the show or something I don't know. 

01:08:49 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
You can't just let that photo happen Go take a couple pillows off a chair in the lobby. 

01:08:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, some day we. Should get that massage ladies pillow that they have out there floating around the circle lobby? 

01:09:01 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yeah, I don't know, it's horrible collateral damage that he now has to like everyone gets a shot at him. That's not fair. 

01:09:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, hey, but life isn't fair, like you said. That's part of being a sports fan. Next topic here we have a conversation about spaces in general. The spaces scene on Twitter has changed a lot. It's no longer dominated by just one individual, though still a prominent part of the spaces is Elf, who said spaces war are at an all-time high. 

01:09:31
He had Omar on the show at Penny Pit Victim who confronted real fat about how to handle the man of the library situation which spoke about on the previous stream, which was once again, the man of the library owes somebody money. However many times that has happened seems like there will never be peace over the library situation. And talked about Omar. However many times that has happened seems like there will never be peace over the library situation. And talked about Omar potentially crossing the line. 

01:09:51
But other parts of the spaces we have Adam at the NHL Better who talked about bringing on Matthew Boyer Five who is apparently the bookie for Shohei Otani who will be on the show, and the Adam and Earl spaces have been one that has been very dominant now, I think, on the Twitter spaces scene. So we're moving into different directions. And then we have PayTheVig here who said this week we learned, realfat is having an absolute blast joining the spaces and getting attention. People trying to hold Manda Library accountable for past steps has its popularity at an all-time high Now, before we go to the bomb that dropped after that. You mentioned it multiple times, rob, but you think that, with Mandel Library's credibility potentially at an all-time low, popularity is at an all-time high and you think that's exactly what he's looking for. 

01:10:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
A hundred percent and that's why I couldn't be more out on the drama in these spaces at this point and I don't think it's just me either. Like you, look at the listener numbers compared to a few months ago. People are tuning out the fake chaos, the staged fights. You know the who scammed who this week loop. It's tiresome. Like who cares? I mean, the only person that seems to care is Fats. I mean Fats is still out here. He's like the last guy at the party arguing with the DJ about the songs that they play. I like Fats, I really do. But his whole thing is like these people are grifters looking for attention. And then what does he do? He gives them all the attention all day long like quote tweets, full threads. He's in all these spaces At some point. You're just feeding the stray cats, hoping that they're gonna go away. It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. I'm even hesitant to say some of these names now because that's exactly what these people want. 

01:11:38
Like Omar, this guy made up completely fake rumors about me for months, said I was, I was getting sued, I'm under investigate. Whatever fantasy this guy cooked up in his basement. He's still DMing me a couple of times a week asking me to join his space. Like, bro, are you okay? Is this a cry for help? Like I don't understand. These people are delusional. Let them argue in their echo chambers. Let them go back and forth with a hundred people listening, because most of the people in there are beyond help anyways and I'm glad you pointed out that Adam and Earl show, because credit where it's due, and I know that that spaces is not as popular as some of these others let's post their their twitter um handles down in the description below Jacob, because those guys deserve some respect. Their space space actually tries. They bring in real guests. They have real sports betting conversations. I mean having Shohei Otani's bookie on the show on Sunday night. That's a fucking great get. 

01:12:37
Like I listened to half of it this morning. I'm only halfway through it, but the guy has legit stories Like that's what spaces could be if people put effort into it. Instead, it's just you know, this guy owes this guy money. This guy, this guy's a deadbeat. I'll never talk into this guy again. And then they're on those spaces together two nights later, like it's so fucking played out. At this point I actually can't stand and you know, listen, I will take some accountability for talking about this a lot in the early going, but I did not see this as the eventual direction. This a lot in the early going, but I did not see this as the eventual direction. I really did not see this as like 10 grifters all arguing with each other, joining each other spaces every day, trying to produce content. I think it's fucking lame. I think it's sad it's worse than that. 

01:13:19 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Uh, a lot of these people who are even like, spend time regularly on these panels. It was charming, I think, at first, but then you like, like them for some funny jokes, you say. But then you start following them on twitter and you realize, holy, everyone involved here are one are some of the most vile people. Yeah, like, are the so like repugnant people, like they lose a bet, like they bet on a game and a guy misses a throw, and they think, like the sort of that they tweet. I'm like holy man. So much for those one-liners. Um, but it literally, literally it's a raw flock of them. 

01:14:04
I I ended up in that something yesterday. I ended up in that something yesterday Walking the dog. I heard Omar losing his mind at some like 68-year-old Scottish woman for wanting his clout. It was unhinged. I got to admit like I was hooked for a bit, but it was crazy. And it's not just the people running it, because they seem like horrible people. It's the people who, like, are regularly wanting to take part in it. The more you're exposed to these people, you're like, holy shit, this is just a flock of vile people. And, yeah, one guy's getting Otani's bookie. The other guy's reaching out to Mo Khan. 

01:14:51 - Kirk Evans (Host)
That's where we are here. So credit adam and eric, yeah, yeah and and honestly credit to jeff he, he called it. He said someone's gonna come up and have a competing space and and if it's not quite as big as else, but it's just kind of normal and calm and like there are characters but it's not like so over the top and people like it and it's good. I, I like being in there. I'm not in there all that much. Sometimes I go in and I'm like I am not interested at all in this topic. But sometimes you know, when it's flop and Brett and people actually talking, like I was in there on the first day of the WNBA season and people were just talking and like a few like legit ball knowers came in and like that's the shit I love. So yeah, like I think it gives me a little, a little more hope in humanity that at least not everyone loves the just pure mayhem, craziness, fake kind of bullshit yeah, I'd like the mayhem, but it's got to be. 

01:15:49 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
There also has to be some level of substance behind it to a certain extent. And uh, the other ones are off the rails and I don't even think it was his own show, but I heard um, like it was on someone else's show, but elf was on there and he was like being pretty forthright, that like he kind of got got, like he had a airbnb that cost him a fortune. He he promised two fights to sponsors that did to a good sponsor. That didn't happen and they kind of like bailed on him and now he is like to sponsor, to sponsor an elf spaces now, compared to even a month ago, like you could fart it yeah, but but jeff, like there's on my end, listen, I met elf in person. 

01:16:40 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Right, I had a. I had a great time with him in boston. I thought, you know, we had some very real conversations. He fit in with the crowd and for a while I was somewhat sympathetic towards him for those reasons. But now I look back on it, it's like what the fuck do you expect? Like you're building content around sean perry man of the library, you know, jw lucas, like if you hang around with that type of crowd, you fucking grifters, you're going, yeah, fucked. And that's what happened. 

01:17:10
So I can't be sympathetic towards him. And it's not like people didn't warn him along the way it happened. How many times did I stop into the spaces to tell him that Other people did? And this is not to pat myself on the back, but I can't be sympathetic towards that. He brought it upon himself. 

01:17:26
He tried to chase engagement by any means necessary, hung out with the wrong crowd and he felt like all these people around him were aligned with his incentives and motivations. Guess what? They didn't give a fuck about him, they only cared about themselves. It's the way the world works. So I'm not sympathetic towards him for that stuff and, um, you know it's a shame that it happened, but at this point the drama stuff it's so repetitive, dude, it's like it's the same shit. Every single I don't I don't know how like listen to do loves his stuff. I see him in the spaces still all the time as well. He eats it up and and I just can't be that guy anymore, like I have better things to do with my time than hear the same fake arguments over and over. 

01:18:07 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Well, you talk about stuff that's fake. This is something that is not fake, it would seem, and it was brought brought up under a reply to at Blackbeard Betts' spaces where he had a quote-unquote peace summit with Library Elf, omar, nadu and Fats, and one of the replies is from Raja Kanchi, the king BB6, kanchi, the king BB6, who posts some very illuminating legal information in regards to Sean Van Nguyen, otherwise known as man at the Library, in regards to theft charges which weren't felony charges against him. So some felony charges against man at the Library for theft we can file that under. You know, probably could have seen that one coming Kind of lines up with the person you see online. What do you think, rob? 

01:19:01 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I would agree. Listen. The reality is, I don't know. If this is true, listen, I have no problem. 

01:19:08
But it's believable, and that's it. Listen, I'll wait for the facts, but but let's be honest, if you had to blindly guess which tier one grifter might be fighting a court case while flexing six dollar future slips on the indiana pacers on twitter, it's not exactly a plot twist. If this, if this turns out to be true, right and I. I don't want to go deeper into that because, at the end of the day, you can throw out lots of accusations about people nowadays. Maybe it's not him or whatever, but it doesn't change my stance on library as a person. I think he's just the ultimate grifter has been since he came into the space and I tried to preach it. I will continue to try to preach it, very subtly though, because I don't want to give him that much attention. So, yeah, not a plot twist. I will say that, all right. 

01:20:00 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Go ahead. 

01:20:01 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It was as shocking as finding out. You know, does Albert have a stalking charge Like the? You know? Here's the charges. Here are the participants Match the person to the charge. 

01:20:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, felony theft. Yeah, who could that possibly be? The guy that's been stealing from people for years with a fucking paid discord about? You know the the way the moon is shaped that night, or the signs that he saw when he went to sleep, like come on here on that, though. 

01:20:30 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
You know, when you are all listening to this or when this show drops, it will be a big day. It is. I think it's Buddy's going back to court May 27th. 

01:20:44 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's going to be something for the Friday crew to be discussing. I'm sure they're going to have lots of thoughts on the outcome of that. 

01:20:51 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
We will, I'm sure, have lots of thoughts, so make sure you're subscribed so you're able to tune in to that friday show with myself, joey knish, jeff nadeau and flip no lie, chris deer, guess. Let's move on now to the chopping block. This is the stuff that doesn't warrant complete segments. We still wanted to discuss a little bit on the way for this show, and first up we have from Spanky, who we've talked about already on. This says looking through some old pictures and found this 2004 gem, and it's a large compile, a combination of phone numbers to, I'm assuming, bookies, and I'm too young to know what all this is, so I'll pass it off to Rob. 

01:21:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I think we might all be. To be honest, I don't think you know Spanky's not that much older than me, it's less than a decade. It is a throwback, like the 800 numbers, website URLs written in marker. You know, I used to call in bets when I was 16 years old. It's wild to think how far the space has evolved in 20 years. It was just a different time, like the technology we have nowadays is completely different. So it's every now and then. 

01:22:03
I find it cool to see these kinds of throwbacks and it actually makes me wonder what my life would look like as a better if I was born a decade earlier or if I just figured out how to win earlier. That old school era was very raw, filled with opportunity, in my opinion, and a lot of it was operational, as you can see by that chalkboard. Right, it's not like necessarily who has the best models, it's who has the best operation. It wasn't better or worse, just completely different. So I thought it was pretty cool that he found that, dug up that picture and posted it. It did remind me a little bit of my early betting days, but that operation to that scale I've never experienced anything like that and it's what it took to win, just having all those contacts in the space and being able to get down really quickly, ahead of other people. 

01:22:52 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Any experience with something like this, jeff? 

01:22:57 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I mean, I like I've already got too many passwords you have a whiteboard to write down your passwords streaming services, websites, betting sites. I I yeah, I can sites I can't remind. I don't want to tell people how easy of a mark I would be also if you got into my shit. But just don't, please don't. 

01:23:24 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Alright. Next piece of conversation here in regards to these are we calling these like home run lotteries, lottos, Like where you just take on a ton of different players to hit a home run? Ev, no poke at triple E, V, double E, no poke says hashtag circle back? Would love your thoughts on this, Not exactly in relation to MLB betting, but in people thinking there is value on 60 plus batters per day, every day, to hit a home run. And they screenshot a couple of photos, First of all from Loctopus Lines, who says that's a great name, by the way says can we stop normalizing a list of 50 plus to hit a home run and then victory lapping the winners? I even saw a list that went one of 39 the other day. Do you know how impressive that is? Let's keep it around the 20 range If you're going to do it. It really had us in the first half. 40 home run bets a day is crazy, but 20. Now, let's keep them in that range. And then June Cherie Phoenix 911 says I choose two people from each team. Usually there's 15 games. That equals 60 people. These are people. I like to do something A hit RBI, bases, home run, whatever. 

01:24:36
If people are providing this data and others are finding it useful. There's nothing wrong with it. Lists wouldn't be made if there wasn't a demand for it. I think we focus more on what we have going on, not so much on what other cappers are doing. So a lot of thoughts. I'm sure let's start with you on this one, Kirk, these. Well, let's just clear the air. First of all, is there value in these sorts of home run lottos? 

01:25:04 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I don't know for sure, but I can't imagine so like I can. I can almost say with certainty anyone in that interaction was not betting with value. I like I do love it when touts go against each other and they're like come on 50? Ridiculous, let's keep it to 20, guys, let's be reasonable here. 

01:25:22 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That's so good. 

01:25:23 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Like I don't know. I also find it funny, like I don't know exactly what they had in their Twitter bio, but both of them had like boxes for like some tout service or something which is classic in a conversation like this. But yeah, I feel like the big trend in touting is like hit a 500 to 1, have that slip in your pocket so you can tout it and show people. So it kind of makes sense to have that. These people are doing 50 bets at a time, so they can. 

01:25:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You know, look at what we cashed today, ignoring that they went two for 48 yeah, I, I, I know why we were tagged in this and it's very clear to me that the two people that were posting like they don't really know what they're doing, right, like, bring it down from 50 to 20. And then the other guy says I'm picking like two players per team per day, which is like a random arbitrary number, right. But I think the guy that tagged us wanted, wanted at least all of us to say that you know, firing this much in a day is like a bad idea. 

01:26:31
Volume doesn't automatically mean someone's clueless. Like there are rare situations where a specific prop market is way off. You can scale up across the entire board like that's definitely not what's happening here. But you know, you got to try to keep an open mind with props as well, because I've had nights where it's like a full nba card and I bet like 150 to 200 props. I know it sounds insane and a lot of those are just the same markets. So sometimes chaos has like structure. It just it's not. It's not usually the case on gambling Twitter. That's, that's all I'll say about that. 

01:27:06 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I find with a lot of these topics it's like it's plausible that that there could be something going on, but like it's plausible that there could be something going on, but then you read the tweet and you're like, okay, no, these aren't the ones who are taking advantage of the good value. 

01:27:21 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
You have to remove all plausibility of this one because she's really choosing two people from each team every game. If you had value, you'd have maybe three on one team, maybe you'd have none on one team. The fact that you have to maybe three on one team, maybe you'd have none on one team, like the fact that you have to pick two from each team because it's people you like to do something? Yeah, I no value. 

01:27:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I, I think I think the one that really gets me and we we've talked about this before but the whole notion of like, if you're putting this out there and people are finding value in it, then there's nothing wrong with it, and the reality is 98 plus percent of people don't know what's valuable in the space. I mean, I don't want to pick on her, it's just the example that comes to mind. But it's the Ariel Epstein like newsletter argument. Right, it's like, well, I'm just putting all this sourcing, all this data and these trends into this newsletter and sending it out and people are paying for it. It's like, yeah, but that's not. 

01:28:17
People are not gonna win by by tailing that, right. So there's like in my opinion, it might not be intentional harm, but there is harm with putting stuff out into the gambling universe that is misleading or doesn't actually provide value, and I think that's what we're going through. As you know, an industry right now is so many people think that they are actually providing value when in reality they're not, and I don't know that it's. I don't know that it's malintent or you know they're intentionally trying to be harmful, but in a lot of cases it is, and certainly if you're going to be someone that puts out 50 plus home run props and five of them hit and you're going to victory lap them even on a losing day, then that's a real problem. 

01:29:05 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, and to me the actual line is that so many of these people use is the like oh, let's focus on our own stuff, stop talking about other cappers. It's like that's an obvious take of someone who's doing something wrong. Yeah, you wouldn't want other people to talk about you? 

01:29:23 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Next one, rob, under the fire a little bit here from at Morty Wins who says Rob has done many shameful things in his life but platforming Jeff Nadeau has to be one of of the worst. It was circled back a couple times, won by guy in cornfields, weston, and at odds glizzy. So rob will give you the floor here to respond so I'll definitely give my perspective. 

01:29:44 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'm interested in hearing both jeff and kirk's as well, especially since kirk and nadeau have had beef um in the past. Um, let me, let's take. I'll take a step back, for I genuinely hate the state of modern day discourse where there's no middle ground anywhere. It's my, it's my biggest pet peeve. Everything is black or white. You're either a hero or you're a villain. There is no room for nuance whatsoever. So when I see people losing their minds over you know, quote unquote platforming jeff nadu like I've handed him fucking the nuclear codes or something, I honestly just find it exhausting. Like do I agree with a lot of nadu's takes? Absolutely not, in my opinion. Some of them are downright awful, like the I don't want to hear the women talk about sports line. That's brutal. We've called that out. I don't agree with it. Most people don't. We've talked about his pick selling. We've discussed his contradictions. It's not like we're giving him like a soft landing where nobody challenges him when they disagree. Like listen to the Friday show. If Kanish disagrees, he disagrees, flop disagrees. This happens, but some of these people act like he's a terrorist or something, like as if having Jeff Nadeau on a podcast is the moral equivalent of endorsing war crimes. 

01:31:06
The guy lives his life. He speaks his mind, which you know. Now I see Jeff wearing the USA hat the last time I checked. This is kind of the foundation of America, by the way freedom of speech. He drinks some Stellas. He tries to hook up with someone at the bar, that's it. That's the whole story. The other part no one talks about. He's already had a massive fucking platform with Barstool. 

01:31:29
Like do you think I'm suddenly catapulting Jeff Nadu into the spotlight? Where have you been for the last five years? And every week someone new pops up trying to cancel him again. It's the same recycled outrage. Look, you can disagree with someone, you can challenge them. We've lost the ability to just talk to people that we don't align with. Not everything needs to be a purity test. Not everyone that offers their perspective on this channel needs to be Billy Walters Like Jeff's, not both Jeffs aren't. Sometimes it's just a conversation. If you can't handle that, maybe the internet's not for you, but this type of stuff infuriates me Like it really does. Like where is the middle ground nowadays? I disagree with Ndu'an. So many things doesn't mean I can't have a conversation with him. 

01:32:17 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Like it's getting ridiculous, in my opinion yeah, I think it's also important to point out that the guy who tweeted this is quite literally the fucking worst. Like this guy. I listened to him in the spaces. He's unbearably annoying. He DM'd me. This guy sucks, nadeau. I think he said some unfortunate things about women that I would vehemently disagree with and then, for whatever reason, he decided he really didn't like me because I agreed with something other Jeff said, but otherwise I've got no problem with that, with something other Jeff said, but otherwise I've got no problem with that, anything for you, jeff. 

01:33:03 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I just wanted to just check this person out. 

01:33:04 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
What's that handle? Morty in the. 

01:33:07 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Morty wins. 

01:33:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Morty wins. I've seen this. I just don't know. There's so many people in gambling Twitter nowadays it's hard to keep track of them all. Listen, at the end of the day, man we're getting out of hand with I don't know. I've said my piece. I've said my piece. I don't want to rehash it. I just think as a society, we're so divided on. 

01:33:30
This person said something I don't agree with it, and now you're a fucking horrible person if you do agree with it, and I definitely do not listen. I have women talk to me about sports all the time and I'm totally fine with it and I respect their opinions, and if he doesn't, that's his prerogative. I don't agree with it. I don't like it necessarily. He also says a lot of things that I do agree with, and I think he provides a valuable perspective that is different to the others on this channel as well, the same that Jeff Feinberg does. So anyways, that that's I'm not gonna we we talk, touch on to do every single week I get. There will be people that will never like him. I'm not going to change your mind, but I think as a whole in society, I like to just absorb as much as I can, and you know I'm not going to hold the guy to the coals because of one opinion that I strongly disagree with. Let's put it that way. 

01:34:28 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I was just checking up on some things last time it came to me, so I didn't get to properly defend Jeff Nadeau, nadeau crew man. I love Nadeau and we used to battle it out. Just like you, rob, I don't know, I don't agree with everything, but Nadeau fucks as far as I'm concerned. 

01:34:50 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yep. 

01:34:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
All right, we'll move to the next one. Here we have from Alex Bartlett, featuring once again on the show, got into a little bit with joey knish from the friday show. Um, alex philip, who talked about, say I said tough start to 2025. In chicago, the sky's minus 60 point difference. This season is the worst for the first two games of the season in wmb history. They'll head back on the road in search of their first win, starting with a meeting Sunday versus LA. 

01:35:16
And then Alex said at some point this guy needs to have a legitimate conversation about Reese and her role on the team. You can't have your star with an about 35% effective field percentage on a mid 20% usage rate. She's also legitimately been a bad defender. She does almost nothing. Well, I'm not seeing any real potential. So knish says and we talked about range of reese a lot on the friday show he says she's the second most popular player in the entire league and one half of the most entertaining rivalry in all sports. Right now nobody gives a fuck about effective field percentage and usage, which is not true, but people, you should care about those stats. But alex says makes sense. You say this considering being terrible at your job but getting to keep it because you're moderately entertaining. Entertaining is your MO and then Drunk UFC Intern says hashtag circle back. So just quickly, he says terrible at your job but also is moderately entertaining which would mean he's moderately good at his job, would it not? But just tried to take a big dig at knish drop. 

01:36:16 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'm sure you like that well, listen, in my opinion, that's an elite roast from alex. I've interviewed alex. Um, we did a wnba betting episode on this channel. I would suggest people check that out. My condolences, you're not a bar. Okay, we're gonna get. We'll get your take on bartlett in a second no comments I. 

01:36:33
I think he cooked Kanish. It's a one-liner. It had deep meaning, zero fat, great insult. But I also think that Kanish isn't totally wrong. I think rivalries do drive engagement and it doesn't always have to be like two mvp caliber players going at it. We've seen that in every sport. Drama and storylines sell, especially in a league like the wnba kirk where visibility still needs a boost like I, I. I don't disagree, but you know. That said, when someone dunks on you with your own brand moderately entertaining and terrible at your job you just kind of have to take the L. If you're Knish, I think that's an A-plus roast and good work by Bartlett there. 

01:37:19 - Kirk Evans (Host)
But, joey, like Bartlett wasn't the one who was trying to say anything about entertainment, or like he was just Bartlett's. Like me, he's deep in the weeds of the WNBA. He loves it. I love it as well. I thought his tweet was totally right about, uh, reese's efficiency. But like Kanisha is the one who who brought up, like the fact that Reese's star. I agree with both of those takes that Reese is super popular and is gonna have to be featured at least in the league. But I agree with Bartlett for sure that like her role on the team, whatever. But yeah, then Bartlett just came back and absolutely dunked on him and it was a great tweet, just an absolute domination by Bartlett in my books. 

01:38:03 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think, like the deeper part, like, if I'm thinking about this correctly, the discourse has been around like why is this necessarily a rivalry when one player is so much better than the other? Right, that's been talked about a lot. And to kanisha's point I, because people are using stats, right and as they should like, if you're going to compare two players, use use proper analytics to do so. But to me it doesn't matter in this instance. All that matters is that you have a rivalry in this sport that people are care about and they're invested in. And to me, like I don't think kanisha is saying in the grand scheme of things, fuck, you know, effective field, I'm just. I think he's saying in this comparison, just let it be. 

01:38:45 - Kirk Evans (Host)
But the thing is, bartlett isn't talking about caitlin here because I because I know I don't know him well, but I we've we've interacted before on twitter. Bartlett is just saying this as a fact of basketball in the league. So, like she, he's not saying this in comparison with caitlin. Or why he's not saying it is like a lot of twitter accounts do of like why is this a star? Why is it a rivalry with caitlin? Caitlin such a superior player? All those things to some degree are true, but bartlett is saying it in terms of, like, the chicago sky's potential won't be reached with them playing reese this way because he is such a deep ball knower. Commish took it as a caitlyn clark debate, but bartlett wasn't talking about that. He doesn't I. I could be wrong, but I'd be pretty confident that he doesn't care at all about the debate of her versus Caitlyn. He cares that they've been using her to initiate offense when she's not ready for that. 

01:39:41 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
He makes a strong case as well. For that Totally 100%. It's horrendous. 

01:39:46 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'm not saying it isn't a strong case, yeah. 

01:39:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Jeff, what's the origin of the Bartlett beef? I don't care to do that. I've learned some lessons. Just whatever my spirit is, mean, maybe I'll just take my 90 seconds here, one minute to point out In golf we tried to make a lot of losers Tiger Woods rivals for a bit. 

01:40:10
We just did, but in the end he was too good. No one could live up to it. That wasn their fault. Right, we just need a storyline. I will comment on the league. Uh, just from you know, culture warrior feinberg, back in. I showed up at the beginning of the show. I'm back right now. What a dumb fucking league that these girls are not all in on committing to rail riding caitlin. In the same way, everyone in pro golf decided we will rail ride tiger. Yeah, more money for players, more money for sponsors, more money for everybody. Everybody wins, okay, do you know how much 40th fucking place pays, paid before tiger, after tiger. These girls, they're crazy, they're nuts, nuts. You'd think if it was some like veterans on the way out. Like you know, azinger took some shots at Tiger Like I built this thing. I built this thing, but no, it's some of these younger players too. They're going to lose their minds. They're going to ruin a great thing. So figure it out and rail ride you idiots. 

01:41:15 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, we don't need to get too deep into it, but actually I would have agreed with you a lot more last season. I think at this point, like there was the clip of Brittany Griner which I don't think she said what people think she said what she said but no, it's pretty clear they're not fully on board to rail ride Caitlyn. 

01:41:34
I actually I actually not sure I agree with that. I think Reece really doesn't like her, which kind of makes sense given the context. But, like last year and following the sport, there was a lot of Caitlyn Clark kind of dislike. Yeah, it's kind of simmered now. I actually the the fandom of it is still very true. Like there's a lot of wnba fans who fucking hate caitlyn and are like this isn't right. But I actually think most players at this point are kind of on board. 

01:42:02 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But it's so much bigger than that. Because I'm into, like, some of the sports business stuff as much, people think I'm an idiot. I do like to keep up on a lot of things the fact that, like, we've been around long enough. The fact nike hasn't put out a shoe form yet because they're social justice warriors and she's got to wait her turn in line because less popular players need shoes to hit the market first. But every single dick spurting goods across the whole fucking country just wants a display of caitlin clark shoes and nike won't give it to them. Like, imagine, like, are they allergic? Are they afraid of money? Are they so goddamn stupid? 

01:42:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
wow, jeff. We used to call alex moretto the the darren revell of the hammer, but I think you might have actually taken that crown now, oh it's so obvious now it's embarrassing. 

01:42:44 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
There's other great players that they can have a shoe too, but if caitlin a shoe, it upstages someone else's shoe, they're lost in something that they shouldn't be lost in If they wanted to get to the next level. Golf didn't get lost in it. There was maybe one comment, one comment. Craig Stadler made a chicken watermelon joke. Golf didn't get lost in it. Everyone grabbed on and lived for it. And now Kevin Kisner got to finish 40th place and make a fortune. 

01:43:13 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Two more pieces to go through here. First of all, we have one from Joey Toons, who posted some plays looks like right before tip-off in one of the Eastern Conference Finals games in the NBA. Evfan590 says, generally curious, why Toons feels he needs to send this out to his chat a few minutes for a tip. Who is this message intended for and how is this info useful that he tags him Did not even send out the under 224 when it was occurring. What is wrong with you? We got a hashtag circle back as well on this one, Rob. What do you think? 

01:43:46 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No, we should start with Kirk here. He's the resident person that's been threatened by Toons before what? 

01:43:52 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
did he threaten? 

01:43:53 - Kirk Evans (Host)
to do, did he smash you through a table, punch his head off his body. Yeah, he also DM'd me some things that were even more threatening. Yeah, Toons' group is pretty useless. He just posts regurgitated information in there. I think he just like wants to post there daily to like keep users active, but I don't know. He's a fascinating guy with a fascinating group of traders he works with. 

01:44:27 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I love Toons. He's a. In my eyes he's a good dude, I can will you still love him after he murders me? You know, listen, I'm gonna hear both sides uh, you know, I'm gonna hear both sides of the argument before I decide. 

01:44:42
No, listen, I honestly consider him a friend, um and, and I always enjoy the conversations I have with him, even if one of his traders seems to live for fucking needling me every single time I lose a bet to them. Don't like that guy, but I like tubes. That said, the Feed Me. Telegram is, unintentionally, one of the funniest channels on the internet. Like, if you're not in the unintentionally, you've got Schefter tweets copy pasted in there, like we don't all have notifications on already. You've got underdog tweets that get copied pasted in there, like we all have our notifications set to underdog on Twitter as well. You've got bets that somehow never showed up before tip but they magically appear after the final buzzer as a win and their victory lapped. You've got the under moved earlier message 90 minutes after the under moved, you know, 15 minutes after the game started. 

01:45:35
Like, who is this for exactly? I I don't. I don't really understand it, but I will say this toons does move markets. That's not up for debate. So, yeah, I stay on top of the chat. I sift through the noise sometimes there's signal in there and at the end of the day, I sift through the noise sometimes there's signal in there and at the end of the day, I just get that. The whole thing is like a marketing tool to try to get more accounts. It is what it is, but I do think it is. 

01:45:57 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It is actually a hysterical group so one of the most fascinating people on twitter. Like they're not enough. I want more puzzle pieces because, like, what a character. I don't really know him well enough to have a bad thing to say, other than I lasted like maybe two hours in that telegram. He's on like drug dealer time too, you know it's like, and a lot of pro bettors they're on drug dealer time. 

01:46:23
I don't mean that as an insult. Like they go to bed late, they wake up late, they don't have to be up for anything. A lot of them are like childless. I'm not even saying that as an insult. Like they work on the same schedule. It's like I know I can't message a drug dealer before a certain time. He's still sleeping. He was out on the you know doing his drug dealer things last night, um, but just like how the news will break and he'll like put it in the feed like hours later, like he just you could tell when toons wakes up. Like you can tell when when he wakes up, it's when he tweets like the big news of the morning and if it's like 11 o'clock, toons just woke up or or when he puts good morning in the group at like 1 30 pm but even, like I noticed last night after the hockey, like he just tweets like logos it's, I don't know. 

01:47:10
I'm fascinated. I don't like I could see why people would hate him. I could see why people would want to ride with him, I guess well, I, I definitely understand the hate. 

01:47:19 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Like he's not touting, but in a it almost feels like he is in a way you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying like it's I I'm not calling him a tout, he's not, he's not really selling anything, he's trying to get accounts, but it almost feels like he has that that tout vibe in the telegram channel, right. Um, you know, someone joked about it weeks ago but like the prop run that was in that channel was legendarily horrible for a long period of time, like it was. It was hitting it like I'm exaggerating like 10% on a big sample and I'm actually certain they were winning as a group on props at the time, but it seemed like everything they posted in there would lose. Again, just an unintentionally funny channel. But I respect Toons a lot. I can't say the same for the people that necessarily work around him, but he's a player in the game. Like I tip my hat to that. I just I laugh at a lot of stuff in the group. 

01:48:14 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Last tweet we have comes from. Danny Cannell Says I won third place in a pool for the PGA Championship and my buddy says I need to tip 10% to the guy who runs the pool. Anyone ever hear of this? What should I do? And he made a poll which asked should he keep the 100 of the winnings or tip to 10? 84 of the 12 000 votes said keep 100 of the winning. Have any of you ever heard of something like this? 

01:48:40 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
because I certainly have not I mean no, the 15.8 of people who said to tip, like you're out of your goddamn mind. Like what are we doing here? This isn't bottle service, this is a commissioner running. Like, unless this guy hand carved the leaderboard out of wood and fucking delivered the the payouts by horseback, why are you tipping 10 percent? Like yeah sure, I guess if your commissioner does something truly above and beyond, maybe toss him something, but I've never heard of that in my entire life before. I've ran in pools as a commissioner. I've never, ever expected anyone to give money at the end of the year like it's I. I can't even believe that's a real poll and that people actually voted to tip the commissioner. 

01:49:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I can't believe it I don't think it's uncommon if there's actually like work involved, if it's like manually being done in hand by hand. 

01:49:34 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Um, which seems like from a yesteryear but now grp the commissioner of this pool manually being done by hand people. 

01:49:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
If you're just getting people to like sign up to splash sports and you're not even handing the actual cash, yeah, what are we? What are we talking about? You're the commissioner, because you like to be in control. You're gung-ho about this, like that's it. I'm not like the go-getter, like you, I'm not setting it up, but that doesn't mean I'm paying you 10 10 like you didn't have to pencil push, you didn't have to chase people for money. So what is it like? I don't even understand. Even if you did have to chase people for money, so what? 

01:50:09 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
is it like? I don't even understand. Even if you did have to chase people for money, like no, there's a. I wanted this job. 

01:50:14 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
This is what you wanted to do there is a bygone era where I would like actually give some credence to the tip 2025 with how these pools are running yeah, I don't know. 

01:50:25 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I think like i've've been the commissioner of my football league, never received anything for it. Thankless job, absolutely horrible. So throwing a little bit of money to that commissioner I don't think is crazy. But specifically for the PGA is insane. It's a four day tournament, like 10 percent the guy ran it for less than a week. 

01:50:48 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I didn't even think about that. It's nuts man. Listen, if you're a really nice guy, I tip for good service generally. I think that it's a little bit overboard when you're starting to tip commissioners. 

01:51:01 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Tip culture has gotten out of hand, though it really has dude. 

01:51:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You get that machine now for a tip and the minimum's 20%. You're like what are we doing here? 

01:51:09 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
You go like you go. You get that machine now for a tip and like the minimum's 20 you're like what are we doing here? 

01:51:14 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
you go into the dispensary they want a tip and I'm like I didn't. 

01:51:16 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Well, I've been buying the same weed for three years. Like what am I tipping? 

01:51:19 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
for just say no, they don't expect one, but they get more because they ask. It is awkward, but it is you you have to think about it like they don't give a shit, because they don't really give a shit they make you look like seven buttons to get out of it. And then they see you like jamming the buttons you already bought it, so, like whatever, you're already paying for it yeah, but think about like, like care about the reputation tip like what? What do they care? 

01:51:50 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
well, it's one thing if you're never going to go back in that store again, but if it's your local dispensary and you're there every couple weeks, you know okay appreciate the business. 

01:51:58 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
They don't care if you tip those things though, rob, like you, you know like there's only two or three things I get. I sort of interchange between them. I know what I'm getting. I have seen them in there like, oh, this pairs well with this and this pairs well with that, and I'm just like I just want my mind to melt. I don't. I'm not looking for pairings here people you like. 

01:52:16 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Got the weed sommelier coming over. This one has uh flavors, uh oak flavors and vanilla, and you're like I don't give a shit some of these bougie places act like that, though it's ridiculous yeah I want to throw in a final one here on the topic of fantasy leagues and stuff. 

01:52:33 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Do you guys play in a league that has a trophy involved for the winner? Have you ever participated in a fantasy league like that? 

01:52:40 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I have. I saw your post about this on Twitter this week, jacob. Yeah. 

01:52:43 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I'm curious if you guys have experienced that. 

01:52:46 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I mean, listen, I don't think it's a necessity. I don't judge people if they want to do a trophy or a belt or something like that. We had a wrestling belt for for a league for for years. But I think it's kind of cool honestly, like just to have that. You show up the next draft, you put it back on the table. 

01:53:02 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Whatever to each their own I mean, truth be told, like a time in life it was like like a thing that we did. But we're in year 25 now and I don't think it's left like my. I think it's still in the same spot in one of my friend's parents' basements for 14 years. Yeah, like once upon a time we were fun. It was a thing. Now, like we're married with kids, there's just like who gives a shit about the trophy? It was fun in college to have the trophy Dorky, but fun Now it just doesn't matter. 

01:53:36 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I wouldn't call it a necessity, but I think it's nice to have because, especially in my league, there was never a like the winner. There was no money involved, it was just we did it for fun, and then the loser had a punishment that is the most. 

01:53:51 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That is by far the most insane thing we've talked about on the show today an hour 50 minutes in the fact that you played fantasy leagues for fun is I cannot believe. I play uh fantasy I refuse to believe this is even real. We we might actually have to have. This is going to be your performance review. 

01:54:10 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
This is the type who'll say I will not roll out of bed for fantasy football for like under like eight, that like there's just not enough fantasy football. 

01:54:19 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I wouldn't. I wouldn't do for free. Same with other sports, but primary league fantasy. I just enjoy so much that I'll do it with my friends. 

01:54:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Jacob, it looked like you had that trophy out at the golf course. Were you drinking out of it? 

01:54:30 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
No, it was after my Sunday League soccer game, so there was indeed a lot of beer that went into it. Good for you, congrats. Enjoyable, yeah, it was a beautiful day in the GTA. All right, that is where we'll end it. Thank you so much, everybody, for tuning in on the show. You have any thoughts on the fantasy discussions or anything else that we talked about on today's show? Make sure you comment down below. We'll feature some of the best comments in next week's version of Circle Back as well. If you're down there, make sure you do subscribe to the channel. Keep up to date with all our content. We're back on Friday with the A-Team. Also, make sure you smash that like button to help drive up the content to more people and keep Circles Off growing for the future. We'll see you again next time, everybody.