00:00 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
like ah, I can't believe you're telling people that that I'm a helpful person. I was like, oh sorry, we said you'd respond to a dm and be a nice guy. 

00:09 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I'll make sure to cut that out next time welcome to circles off episode number 160 right here, part of the hammer betting network and presented by pinnacle sportsbook. I am rob pazola. Johnny is off again this week, so we have fake Johnny in studio with us, but this will be a guest episode and a familiar one for a lot of people out there Was a hit last time we had him on. It's caused a lot of controversy. 

00:36 - Zack Phillips (Other)
You don't give him that to pump his tires. 

00:38 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Oh yeah, Keep lathering up baby. It was a hit last time he was on. I can say that, Listen, we got to spit facts here on this show. Now, this is not my idea for an episode. Well, it kind of is, but it came from some other place. So what's happening here is Circles Off is growing. This is not just me like patting ourselves on the back, but we're increasing in subscriber count. Appreciate everyone who has liked and subscribed the past podcast, Do that right now for this one, if you haven't already. But we're growing here and with that comes a new audience and with that comes some comments. People DM us to the Circles Off Twitter account. They DM me personally. They're like Rob just found Circles Off. This is amazing. 

01:22
I cannot go back and listen to 159 previous episodes. What are the best ones? Which ones do I need to go back and listen to? And I certainly have an opinion on what that is. But Johnny's would be different, Zach's would be different, Everyone's would be different. So we decided we're going to get a listener of Circles Off to come on and give his opinion. He is a crucial member of Hit the Books. Second most important person on the team, obviously, Brad Powers. Number one, Joey Kanish joins us on Circles Off. 

01:58 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I mean some people are calling out. Miss After Kirk last week said maybe Mr Electricey k, aka mr electric, on, um, yeah, and you know what? There's nothing better I, nothing more I love doing than a good rankings. Uh, mostly because that allows me to put some people at the bottom. So, yeah, that this should be fun. I loved the idea, um, and we did. We did ruffle some feathers last time, which is fun, which is great content, um, even even for people that weren't in like the worst tier, I remember our guy plus ev analytics is like, ah, I can't believe you, you're telling people that that I'm a helpful person. I was like, oh, sorry, we said you'd respond to a d and be a nice guy. I'll make sure to cut that out next time. But yeah, no, it's been a good one and looking forward to another banger. 

02:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes, hopefully it is another banger. I do want to remind everyone, before we get into it, if you're looking for a banger of a sportsbook that's going to be Pinnacle Sportsbook, make sure you check them out. Football season is approaching. In fact we're in football season. The canadian football league is going on right now. Markets are getting steamed all over the place. It's a crazy time to be a canadian football better. But for whatever you want to bet on, all your betting needs to check out pinnacle sports book. They've been in business for 25 years for a reason. Find out what sharp bettors have known for that time. Pinnacles, where the best bettors play. You must be 19 plus, not available in the us and, as always, please play responsibly. All right, let's do it. We're gonna have some structure to this show, it's not just gonna be all over the place. 

03:37
We've had a lot of guests on. I've had to go. I had to prepare a spreadsheet for for knish here so that he could make notes. He could see who all the guests were in the past. Of the previous 159 episodes, 82 of them were guest episodes, so pretty decent amount. We're like right around 50% of them have been guest episodes. That's a lot 82. I can't believe we've interviewed 82 guests. I was going through the list. I don't even remember some of these interviews. The first 18 were audio only. So for those of you who just found us on YouTube here, we had 18 episodes that were audio only guest episodes. We'll include them in here. It's Kanish's floor. He's gonna be able to give whatever he wants here. 

04:17
But for structure, kanish, I was thinking we go down this path. Five categories, okay. We go down this path. Five categories, okay. Category number one is our S tier goat episodes. That's the best episodes of all time. We put them in that category. That's number one. Number two is our overrated episode list. 

04:49
Now, overrated it's really hard to define that because there has to be a general rating on it in the first place, but these are episodes that we're going to say are generally considered to be really good or ones that have racked up a bunch of views and listens. So if we think that it doesn't hold up to that standard standard, it goes in the overrated episode tier. Then we got the exact opposite underrated episode, tier episodes that are generally considered to be forgettable. People don't talk about them a lot. They didn't rack up that many views, but Kanish actually thinks they they're really good. 

05:19
Then the fourth category is the what the fuck were you thinking? Category, which is the worst episodes. You might want to avoid these. I'll let Kanish speak his piece on those. Fifth and final category, which I decided to throw in last minute, is I would like this episode much more if the guest wasn't a dork. I know Kanish and dork is like you know. It could whatever adjective you want to use, but I know for for sure, with joey here going through this list, there's some guys he doesn't get along with. He he might want to admit that the episode is probably a little bit better, uh, because of of that category. So all clear on on the five tiers, or do you need any more clarification? 

06:03 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
no, I read it, uh, a few times, even before you got on, just to make sure. 

06:08 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't, I don't, I you expect me to believe that you actually did that. 

06:12 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
No, I didn't actually, because when I was asking you right before the show what were the tiers, I had forgotten them. But now, but now that we went over it, I'm good to go again. I like. I like to keep it organic and speak it off the cuff organic and speak it off the cuff. 

06:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, like I wanted to do this for the listeners, to give them the criteria, but I also had to. I knew I had to do it for you as well. There was. There was no chance. We're going to get into it. So, uh, five categories. We're going to start with the first category s tier slash goat episodes. The best episodes, guest, guest episodes of Circles Off go into this category. Who do you got and why? 

06:50 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Listen, I think this should even this man should even have his own. The tier itself should be named after this man in this episode and it's episode 81, the great, the, the legendary, the former pinnacle hashtag, you know? Sponsor segue here former pinnacle. Whatever, he was there trading something yeah, head of growth, I believe you head of growth? 

07:18
yeah, yeah, the title always confused me, but matthew trenhale um, needless to say, my favorite episode of Circles Off Ever I've listened to. I've genuinely listened to it. Probably five or six times. I think it's the only episode I've listened to more than twice in history. It is so jam-packed full of incredible information and, you know a little tidbit, does he give condition sauce in that? Did that play a factor? You know I'm an unbiased source, maybe, but incredible episode it had so much. 

07:53
If you're just like, whether you're a rec guy or the sharpest of the sharp, there's stuff in there for you Also, and I've always said this about Trent Hale in there for you also. And I've always said this about tren hale he takes what are incredibly difficult concepts or complicated concepts in sports markets or trading um, or they're kind of the finer things in sports betting and is able to explain them on like a level that almost everybody that can understand also. Um, you know, good guy, good personality, great talker, has a way about him. Probably should be a politician. My favorite episode of all time the trend hail tear the goat episode. Maddie t number one. I got a couple, I got a couple close, but that to me is a a number one with uh, with no competition yeah, I would totally agree with you. 

08:43 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I remember, actually pretty vividly remember, recording that which was in our old studio and um, I there's episodes that when you're you know, when me and johnny do circles off and and zach knows this as well the episode ends and we pretty much have an idea of whether it was good or not, like you can just feel it in the moment, and that was an amazing episode. I'd love to bring Matt Trenhale back on. I probably will, but the standard is so high that it actually makes it challenging to produce something that can live up to that. Again, I think he was by far I don't wanna say by far, but he was definitely one of my favorite guests that we ever interviewed, and I don't like to listen back to my own episodes too often, but that was one that I've listened to multiple times as well. 

09:29 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
So, uh, definitely has to be there, certainly in the mount rushmore and right on the top of the mount rushmore, as you said, condition in its own tier I mean it just like and you know, if you, if you dig, I'm not even sure these were hard to find he used to do his own podcast and he actually sent me some of the old episodes that I don't know how easily accessible they even are anymore. When he took the job at Pinney I think he had to do a little cleanup, but he's even got gems everywhere. Listen, I don't know what Moreto's been doing, but if he was doing his job, matt Trenthal would be working for the Hammer hosting a podcast. I tell you something, that's all you know what I would tell you. If we need to get somebody else on the network, that would be my first choice. But I agree, I think Trenthal, an all-time episode, an 881, a must listen With a couple others that are that are in that. 

10:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Can I go to another one? Yeah, I will say just so that moretto doesn't reach out to me afterwards again and be like why are you letting it? Moretto has, uh, you know he's done a good job assembling, uh care, you know content creators here decent job, he does some work. We're not just going to entirely throw him under the bus, but very valid point which I will bring up in his employee performance review as well, hopefully. 

10:49 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I can, you know, weigh in as well on that as a, you know, a C-level member here. You know what's another, an episode that I think has to be in this tier because of what I would call the rarity to be in this tier, because of what I would call the rarity, the anticipation. One of the early episodes, early guest episodes, and it was episode 11, abnormally Dissed just because literally nobody I mean this guy had been on the forums going back 15 years to play, I mean, a man of mystery and I don't know, I mean very little, very few people had actually, you know, done poor business with him and I don't know if anybody had ever heard him speak before. Um, and it was a fascinating episode. I thought he was, you know you were, you didn't know what you were going to get, but it was one, you know. Here is his backstory and some of the things he did, some of the outlier, incredible things he had done through through the career. It was just one where it it's a one of a kind you know a lot of people that that you've interviewed have have have done public appearances elsewhere, maybe they've hosted their own podcast, maybe they've been on multiple other podcasts. 

12:09
This was one that, um, I I don't know if he's and he's also a guy that commonly, you know, does his, does his, you know, cleans up his twitter, like a lot of the stuff that he's provided in the past, um, just may not exist anymore. Or, you know, you have to kind of be, you know you never stuff that he's provided in the past just may not exist anymore. You know, you have to kind of be, you know, you never know when he's going to kind of clean that data. That's an episode that I think has to live in infamy because it's just, it's one of those one-offs that I don't think a lot of other pods could have gotten or will gotten or may never get again. So it was a fascinating one for me, just because, uh, he's, he's an interesting character and and a guy that never puts himself out there and that's that type of environment yeah, I actually like that breakdown quite a bit. 

12:52 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That was back in april of 2021, so so quite a ways ago, over three years. Um, I have also listened to that episode again more recently, and what I personally loved about that episode was it just felt like a conversation. It went very long, uh, at least a couple hours. This was actually even before you, zach, I don't think you were a producer at that time. No, uh, but it was very conversational. It just was like a bunch of of guys it was me, johnny and AD. 

13:18
We were just hashing it out, but I agree with you that there was like he was on, had come on the scene, especially on gambling Twitter. No one knew anything about him, no one had really talked to him. Um, and, and the allure, like the mystery kind of, of who this person was really made that episode pretty large. So, uh, that was honestly probably the taking off point. I mean, it's only the 11th episode of circles off, but it certainly set us on the right track of like, okay, this is actually a a really solid podcast that has to be listened to every week. So, uh, two for two, I agree I, I did this exercise myself separately from you kanish and uh, that was also an s tier episode for me yeah, and I, those two were the ones that I bought. 

14:03 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I think I would call them in their own tier, uh, and the I call it the trend hail tier, and the one member of the trend hail tier is is ad um, and I think those are the two. If you're gonna, if you're only gonna listen to two, or if I was, you know, if I was on the beach somewhere and I only could listen to two episodes of circles off, uh, you know, for the rest of time those would be the two, um, and and I don't I to two episodes of Circles Off. You know, for the rest of time those would be the two, and I don't know if I would say there's a close third for me as far as those two kind of seem a level above, except for Joey. You didn't list Joey Kanish in any of that. I don't see myself on the list, but I would have put myself. 

14:42 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I did list you on the list, episode 142. 

14:44 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah2, I was wondering why I thought that must have been a typo or something or you know uh, an excel dump that failed. 

14:50 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
But uh, yeah, that those, those would be there as well uh, I just want to pick your brain on a couple other ones. Um, berry horse one, which was episode. Uh, what was the first berry horse episode? Uh, I want to say it was after Trenhale, so it was episode number 95, berry Horse 1. To me that was a banger, like a certified big bomb banger. 

15:20 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I guess I wouldn't put it in the. I thought it was a good episode Maybe I'm a little biased here of kind of knowing a little of the information. I think if it's one of those when Barry Horse, I think, initially first blew up on the like the timing-wise, I just knew a little more about Barry Horse than when the episode came out, so there wasn't that same level of intrigue as the AD episode. Like if that happened when Barry Horse was first doing his like MLB run during, that would have been like oh my God. But it was a good information. I learned some things about it. I think if you're someone that's into that, you know his story of kind of how he he gained an edge, or does you know accounts and stuff. I think it's interesting there. It wouldn't be in the elite tier for me, though and then episode 121 shipper. 

16:16
As much I told zach you think I'm gonna come on here and put one of that, one of the aussies in the elite tier, I mean, listen, I've got a, I've got a reputation to uphold here. 

16:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You can, you can take that shit, perhaps listen it was a really, really good, informative episode like yeah, you know, this guy had been had been roasting me on twitter for years, roasting johnny. I told Zach very specifically the YouTube title is going to be this and but the but the Spotify Apple podcast. One has to be titled shitty points bet trader joins for an interview which is what it is titled to this day. 

16:57
But that episode he's just. He's just a very well-spoken, great guest with a lot of insider industry knowledge. That, um, I I have to put it in that in that same stratosphere personally that put that number five. 

17:10 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
For me, I'd like this episode more of a if it wasn't shipper. Let me tell you a quick shipper story. Let me to add, to add why my bias is here. So he's. It's back when he was actually working at PB and I was talking to Sport, who used to work. This is, after Sport Sprott's, better. 

17:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Sprott's better yeah. 

17:31 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, left points bad. But Shipper was still there and I asked Sprott, hey, I wanted to get down on something at PB. Could you tell one of the guys that you still know there in trading like it's just going to be, just let him get that. Not like you know it was any inside scam, just I wanted to get down a little more than what he goes. He responds back. He goes yeah, wait until like after 8 pm. That's when Shipper gets off and I was like wait, shipper's dead. Like, isn't it like he's your boy, he's there, just shippers that. Like, isn't it like he's your boy, he's there, just tell. 

18:08
And no, no, no, he was such a company man that he wouldn't let me like get down. 

18:10
We had to wait until the shipper left and the midnight crew, the poor aussie who was working, the late night crew who probably could have been bought off for you know, a blooming onion who had to come in and wait until then. So I had to stay up until midnight or whatever, until Shipper left and was logged off that the guy who you know was going to. So Shipper was such a guy that even a Sprott's referral couldn't get me a decent bet when he was working there. So, yeah, I probably still have some, you know, a scorn for Shipper in terms of where are the points? Where do you get these kind of employees that, uh, you know it won't even, won't even let another guy get a decent bet down? So, yeah, that was my uh, my shipper story that I'll never forget and why I'll never let him in this tier so this is how this is me separating the person from the episode itself because I will say something shippers attitude in that episode actually drove me crazy. 

19:08 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
He was so proud of what he had accomplished in terms of limiting other bettors, like he wore it as it was. Just like this sense of pride for him and even like when he mentioned well, yeah, rob, when you signed up at at points bet, like we made sure we went in your account immediately brought, like that really rubbed me the wrong way, like I. I was like I wasn't even given a chance. It's just like my real I mean, this is the decision I made in life to use my real name, um, for for all this stuff, but the the contents of the episode itself, I think, are really good, despite the fact that I was a little bit rattled. But uh, this is your, this is your time to shine. Knish, uh, so that's it. 

19:46 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
We're moving on from like s tier just one footnote, uh, last footnote on that, but but he's gone out of business points that you might say doesn't exist anymore. So, uh, he can be as proud as he wants of that they went under. Just just a quick footnote there in terms of, uh, how they decided to do business. So, yeah, but that's all I got for the, the. As far as the, the, what we would call the, the goat slash tren hail tier I told moretto that there was zero percent chance. 

20:17
Knish gave the aussies any credit at all no, no, no, I was not putting them in this tier, even with a revolver to the back of my head. 

20:26 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Other episodes that I did consider for this tier were episode 61, which is Chris Bennett of Circa Sports. I thought that was a great episode and, like to this day, if people just want to learn how betting markets work, if you're new and you think that they're like sports books out to get you and you know betting splits and whatever, just go watch the Chris Bennett episode, because he basically just shits all over those notions. That was great. 74 was Ferris. I thought that that was a super informative episode, just in the sense that it was unique. Comes from a guy who moves bets and gets accounts and, like you know, just don't get content like that elsewhere. So those were in the same uh tier for me. But we will move on to tier number two overrated episodes, episodes that are generally considered to be really good or racked up a bunch of views and listens, but they really aren't that good kanish yeah, I, I was. 

21:23 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I, I was excited for this tier and it's funny that the episode that I had right off ready to go was the one we talked the first one you mentioned pre-show and it's the Blue Horseshoe episode, it's the Fez episode and you would say and I know people, there are a lot of people that loved this was what you would say, and I know people, there are a lot of people that loved this was what you would call a like, a Johnny like. You know that guy who comes off the bench sometime and like. You're like, oh my God, he made eight for eight. Like made eight threes in a row. And you're like, where did this come from? This was Johnny's like virtuoso episode where he was like in the zone, like. It reached a level of like like performance, formative arts from johnny that you just don't see. And like like. There's no other episode where he got like he was on a heater and it actually got legitimately like. And also I didn't really know this about. I've learned this more about fez in terms of like actually doing a small amount of content with him. He is such a like. He's one of those guys who like won't shut up and like him and Johnny going back and forth. 

22:29
So, but in terms of the actual like, like it's one of those it's an entertainment episode, right, like it's not one of those the first, the goat tears ones where it's like you will be a legitimately better sports, better listening to these or you might find the information fascinating. No, this, this is one of those that, like you couldn't, it was, it was like like a train wreck, like a, like a bus, you know, a car accident that, like you can't take your eyes off because of the. You know it's like it was like disaster porn for for an episode like where him and johnny it just got almost like awkward where they were going at it so much, um, but yeah, this one, I put in the. Also, the opportunity to put the blue horseshoe in the overrated tier, um, is is an opportunity that I that I cannot, that I cannot well pass up. So, um, yeah, I would put this in the the goat tier for Johnny, but the overrated episode is a clear one for me this is probably the most divisive episode I think we've ever done. 

23:31 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Some people would say this is the best episode ever and some people just absolutely hated it. I'll just give my experience on recording this episode. This was number 88 with Steve Fezzik. I was so uncomfortable, I don't like confrontation. Number 88 with Steve Fezzik. I was so uncomfortable, I don't like confrontation. If I'm really adamant about something, I'll argue that point. I'll go back and forth in debate, spirited debate. But when I see two people going at it and I'm kind of like in the middle of it, I just don't know what to do. So there's a large portion of that interview where I just feel incredibly awkward. I do think it was really compelling content and you know both. 

24:16
I think like Fez to this day is like well, rob, like why didn't you stand up for me a little bit more? It's not my responsibility to stand up for guests. They can plead their own case. First and foremost. Johnny, on the other hand, is like well, you know, like why, you know why were you quiet for that period? It's like I didn't really know what to do. It was like 20 to 30 minutes of just back and forth of like well, why don't? Why aren't you a billionaire yet? Well, I have my bills and mortgage to pay and my kids going to school and it's like, well, your math's not making sense and I didn't know what to do. 

24:45
I think from an entertainment point of view, it really depends on what you enjoy. For me it's not the type of content that I would typically like to watch personally, but if you go through the comments of that episode, it's it's like lit, like people really enjoyed that episode in one way or another and it's. The perspectives are hilarious because it's like great on Johnny for like putting Fez in his place. You know, no one has ever been ever called Fez out like this. And then there's the complete opposite end of their perspective is like who the hell is this Johnny guy? Like do you know what Fez has accomplished in his life? This and and that? So it's actually it's it's nuts. It's actually the perfect representation of society nowadays. We're like two opposite ends of the spectrum. Nobody can meet in the middle and I'm just kind of stuck there like I don't know what to do. But um, interesting that you have, that's good it was definitely. 

25:40 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
It was like a trumper and like a bernie sanders supporter, like as order, like as if yelling at each other, there was never going to be a resolution to the issue, like there was never going to be a we. We meet in the middle and it goes where. It's just constant fireworks and I you know what you it's funny you mentioned you were when hours and fat, we did that live stream for college basketball and powers and feds were going at it and I was like I was in the same play. I was like I don't know how to get a word feds box, that's such a high rate and johnny was so lit up that it was like what, what, what am I supposed to say here? I'm not, I don't know what I like, just let it go. So I think he did, did the best possible case there and just, uh, let let the fire burn yeah, not a super informational episode, but I I think some people find that incredibly entertaining. 

26:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Uh, it was like. 

26:28 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
It was like a mori episode or like, like a gambling twitter uh jerry springer episode rest in peace, jerry springer. 

26:35 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
But yes, absolutely. Uh, one of the other guests we've had on circles off professor, professor, shine, shine the prof, I believe I I don't. I don't want to misquote him, but I, I believe he's told me he watches that episode once a week. He's like this is the best thing ever. It's amazing. So to each their own. 

26:55 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
There is a niche of people that have an undying hatred for Fez. I will say that. So I'm sure that subset, that subset of people, uh, really took a lot, of, a lot of pride and joy in that episode yeah, that I think that was. 

27:12 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Um, that was like an episode. I'm speaking on his behalf, on Johnny's behalf, you're right, but like I I don't want to, I gotta use my terminology right here but I think that episode really put him on the map in the sense that, like it made him very endearing to a lot of people on gambling Twitter. Like there's people that, like I saw it at the last Bet Bash or like, oh yeah, like that episode with Fezzik amazing. Honestly, I don't even know where that one stands, but you have it in the overrated list. It's fair. I mean, if I was doing this myself, I might have it in the same area overrated episode, but it's not my kind of content personally. Similarly to like when, yeah, the watch along that you had with Powers and Fezzik, it was amazing, but like a little bit of like I was in some discomfort watching that at points like where, where is this gonna? 

28:15 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
go like I had, like I it was high point versus houston, I remember, because I bet my point and then down like 26-0 to start the game. Beds isn't even watching the game, like the game wasn't even. He's just going off on a tangent. Him and Power start going at it. I'm like I thought this was a college basketball walk-along where we were like we were going to yuck it up about this game and like neither of them were watching the basketball game. 

28:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So at one point I was like oh guess, I'm guess I'm just here for the ride. The thing that made that one, uh, going off on a tangent ourselves here, but the thing that made that watch along specifically uncomfortable for me is I couldn't tell if the feelings were real or if it was a shtick like I'm like I thought these guys get a lot like because they roast each other on twitter yeah, they roast each other on Twitter all the time and I'm like, is this a shtick, Is it real? 

29:08
I thought just over the years like, okay, this is a shtick. And then they were like I was like, oh, here we go. We were trying to get Fezzik on camera. For that too, by the way, Producer Jason's like we got to get Steve on camera and, anyways, that was. 

29:21 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
that was another interesting oh no, I think he like couldn't figure it out, like legitimately like he couldn't. 

29:26 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't know if I don't know if I buy that or not. I don't know if I know canish, anyone can yeah, I well, that's what drive. 

29:32 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
If I couldn't figure it out you'd believe it. But I'll give you a little, even a little. Uh, behind the scenes there, I think my guy bp, after the college football, the frustrating know end of college football season had had it up to here with the Blue Horseshoe who had a very good college football season, and Feds is one who would like you know six and oh last six plays for a day. He's that kind of guy. 

29:57 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
The Stanley Cup ended, he had two plays that one and he posted that he finished the season 11 and one on hockey plays, so yeah. 

30:03 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, Fez is the type of guy who, when it's running good, everybody in the world is going to know about it, and I think PP had just about had enough of that. Like he needed a little break from the Fez at that point. 

30:15
Totally get it Anything else that you think deserves to be in the overrated category. You know what. You mentioned this and it was one of those where you know he doesn't do a lot of media and there was some intrigue having him on. But the guy if you, if you had a secret and you wanted to tell anybody that to like I have this edge and I need to tell one person who I know will never share it with anybody for the rest of eternity it's Ed gold, it's RAS Ed, ed golden where listen, he's not the most I've met, ed. I actually like he. He helped me all in terms of, like getting a start into making some connections. 

30:59
Um, I like him as a person, but in terms of like information sharing and this is I, a big part of the reason why he's done almost no media over the last 20 years and basically has hired people to do a lot of the public stuff for RIS is it kills him to give away anything that could. Even he did. He told a story and I you know what, if I remember where he said something on a pot years ago and he still remembers this like year, like decade, over a decade ago that some that he gave that somebody then was able to utilize and leverage against him in some fashion. And so that's one where, like, you're not going to get it out of Ed, you can squeeze that. They're not going to get it out of Ed, you can squeeze that, they're not going to get a blood out of that stone, whatever the saying is, and it's just one like again, he doesn't do so. 

31:54
There's some, you know, like uniqueness there in terms of he doesn't, but that's when I put in the overrated category. Just because you're not going to get anything good out of him ever Like he would like. He's not going to give you nothing and that's just the way he's done business and for all he's very yeah, I could say he ran RIS like the CIA for a while. He wasn't going to give you, he wasn't going to give you an edge at all, and so that that that kind of plays into it for me. 

32:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, I would have to agree with you on that. I know Ed personally as well. This was episode 100. We wanted to have a bigger name guest on. That doesn't do a lot of media. This, I believe, was the first time that he did a interview on camera, if I recall correctly. I could be wrong about that, but this was episode 100. I just found that in the, you know, the first 20 to 30 minutes of the interview, I found it was really hard to get him to open up and I think as time went on he got more comfortable and was a little bit more willing to talk. I don't know if it was a nerves thing, because for an interview to work, the interviewer's got to do their jobs. The guest has to I don't want to say do their job, but like be interesting in some capacity respond truthfully, honestly. I got a lot of like short form answers. At the beginning I was like, ah, how's this going to go? I think the latter half of that interview was actually really good, honestly. 

33:27 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
But I think it took a little bit of time to get into that. Yeah, totally it was. It was a slow and I think just that's, that's who ed is like. That's he doesn't want you have to almost, like you know, spend 30 minutes to get anything out of him, you know, just to even get that's. That's his nature. That's kind of how he's kind of survived in the business per se of, uh, you know, having having ed, I tell you what the guy, the man, will never. It's funny nowadays you see people like that, you know startup, uh, you know anything not like people will give away edges and like, just on twitter, like younger people that are getting into the business for over anything. It probably, you know. That's probably why ed is, you know, still tilted over on the message boards. Uh, no matter what. Just because I'm sure it kills him to see some of that, because that is not how he's wired at all. 

34:09 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
No, and I love Ed. Honestly, I think he's a great guy. I agree, met him a few times in person. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it was just like nerves. I was trying to come up with stuff that would be we could turn into larger conversations and it never really materialized in the early going there. By the way, I do wanna point out I appreciate every guest that comes on here. This is not like I'm trying to roast every single guest. This is not what it's intended to be. 

34:35
A lot of this is on my end as well, like personally, one interview people mentioned to me all the time was 129 Giants Badgers, which was, I think, maybe again, I think maybe we had him on before anyone else did, or around that other time he was doing other podcasts. 

34:52
But that interview was done and I thought like I honestly thought I did a terrible job with that interview. Me personally, I was just like, yeah, probably could have attacked that in a different way. And like that week people were going nuts. They're like, oh, this is amazing and this and that I had people reach out to me on the side like amazing interview with Giants Badgers. So I mean sometimes the perspective of myself like being in the chair going through. It might be different than the way other people would react to the interview, but that was one that stood out to me of a recent one where people were like, oh, this is like absurdly good. I'm like really because, like I don't know, I I struggled through that to like come up with a good line of questioning. It didn't feel conversational to me. 

35:39 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I don't know, it's very hit or miss, I guess, for different people yeah, I think he kind of like almost replicates a younger guy kind of people that are, you know, getting into the space, some of the ways he was able to do it, um, but as kind of a direct competitor. Uh, I'm fine with calling that overrated for my personal interest. Yeah, overrated, don't they? You know, hey, don't go back and listen. I listen to the joey k episodes instead. Um, one one that we talked and I got to highlight here and it's funny because I actually get down for this guy a little bit these days and it's the gambling, frank Costanza. 

36:15
He is who went on a absolute six-month Twitter heater of, like new account, blaming everybody. People are loving it. Finally get them on for the and just just a dud, a dud of an interview and I and I can't wait till he hears me say this, cause I tell you like, and I say not only I feel like he lost the steam with that episode, but the Twitter account hasn't been the same. It was a, it was a content disaster for Frank, and I know that's not what he's trying to do for a living, but I tell you what, if he was ever, it was a blow-up content because I would say his Twitter hasn't been the same, the flame hasn't been the same and, yeah, poor Frank, that was not a good one and I don't think he can recover from it. 

37:11 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I do appreciate gambling Frank Costanza coming on the program. The one thing that I didn't like is that he's very adversarial and will take shots at me, take shots at Johnny, take shots at a lot of people, like you said, like that six month run where he's just flaming everyone all the time and then did not do the interview with video on. So we did the entire interview where he was audio only and me and Johnny did not see him for the interview either. But at the end, little secret from behind the scenes, johnny said off air like hey, what the hell, man, like you're trolling us all the time and you don't even show your face on the thing, and he actually did turn on his camera. I know what he looks like now. 

37:54
We actually had a conversation off air. Wish we had that conversation beforehand. I don't know if he would have agreed to do the video. I just don't like that. Personally. I think that if you're adversarial, you want to be a troll. I know part of the reason people do it on Twitter is that they so they don't have to show their face and like they can remain anonymous and whatever I just I find something wrong with that Like. I think if you're going to be. If you're going to be that person like Kanish, for example, that's going to roast other people, you might as well put your real face behind it and and own up to it and stand up. So that that was my opinion on that. 

38:28 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
To me, you gotta, you know, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. To me, like, listen, some people will do. At the last episode we did where, listen, I tell you, some people wanted to dish it back. Our guy, uh, pitski, wasn't too. You know, positivo about my, my, my words that I had for him there. Uh, you know him and uh, what, the, the godfather, who I know who apparently you go to dinner with and play golf with three times a week. Now you, you and moretto, instead of, uh, you know where I work with me, are, uh, you know, having yuck and up eating uh, poutine or whatever it is you have over there with those guys. But, um, but, yeah, I mean to me, like, I agree, I, if you're gonna, if you're gonna dish it, you gotta be willing, uh, to kind of get in the ring and take it a little bit yep, I'm with you. 

39:14 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Uh, we we clear to move on from overrated episodes yep, yep, let's keep it going okay, underrated episodes. Exact opposite here. Episodes that are generally considered to be forgettable or didn't rack up that many views or listens, and they're actually really good episodes. 

39:30 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
The floor is yours, kanish so this is going to be a little bit, and this is one of the most recent um, and for me it's, I find I don't, I don't know why this is, but I find the world of horse racing kind of fascinating. It's something I never really got involved in, have never really had success in. There's been a few stories of the most successful sports bettors ever were in some fashion involved in like massive horse rating syndicates, and it was 153 Denny caps, which I think, which I found very enjoyable. I, I found, and again it's, it's, I think some of the underrated factor is just horse racing is is dying, like in the in this country and I think, around the world. It's just it's not what it used to be. But there's still something in me that, like that, loves kind of that. Uh, you know, like I his his name. 

40:29
He was at bet bash one time zelko, zelko forget it zelko yeah, just incredible, you know big syndicate guy and so like denny being able to to explain a little bit how the syndicates work, how the rebate scam kind of like the mass rebate thing, where it was like if you're, if you did it right, you literally like didn't even have to win and you'd be making money. Um, there's also a famous like old horse racing, uh, modeling story that that I would have to pull up as one of the best stories that I ever. So that to me, I think he he did a little better to me than, um, the vegas horse pools episode where I I thought the denny caps really was able to to get into it industry-wise, and one that maybe just because people don't aren't into horse racing as much anymore, but I still have that kind of that initial interest, I, I found it. 

41:17 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I found it pretty fascinating yeah, I actually love that conversation. I like to bet on horse racing but I don't know much about the market, of the ins and outs, how it works. I've tried to model horse racing before with no success. So I actually love that conversation with Dennis Montoro. That's episode 153. 

41:35
Episode 150 was Vegas Horse Pools. Very different because he just identified, like he identified an edge which he can exploit for a long period of time and did it. I loved that episode. I that was one of my favorite episodes to ever record because he's such a good storyteller, scott. But different type of episode, right like that's not one where you're gonna watch it and you're gonna learn a ton about horse racing or whatever. It was just like kind of his story which I really really think is interesting. So that to me I almost would also put that in the underrated category, although it did actually do fairly well for us. I would say so it's hard, hard to you know, again, underrated. It's got to be an episode that people don't ever really talk about. So I don't, I don't know about that. 

42:23 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
But yeah, I like that Denny, denny Caps one quite bit yeah, I, I agree, I think that's just one that, um, that's that's got to be in there. As far as, yeah, again, maybe it's recent, so it probably did better than it would. You know, if you did it two years ago it would have been, uh, then we really could have called it underrated and dig back. But, um, yeah, I think that's one that that deserves some high marks for sure uh, anything else that stands out to you in the underrated category you know what I got, and this is this is a massive oversight by me. 

42:55
We got to pivot back for one second to overrated, and it was this okay, give me, give me and I know that it was the jeff benson, jj gruden 79. I wanted so much more. I wanted so much, I wanted, like johnny and fez, and I didn't get it yeah and that that. 

43:14
That's like. That is one where and I left that because I'm going through the scrolling now and I had that marked I wanted a little more I and again it's I don't think it's either one's fault, it's just I wanted theatrics, I wanted chaos, I wanted, you know, hatred, and I didn't get it. I got a little bit too much agreeance. I wanted you know, I wanted mori, and I got you know like, uh, yeah, I can't think of any other day. Yeah, you got the soft soft core porn. 

43:40 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Version of mori basically like yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, you wanted to down, you wanted some triple X and you got the stuff that's on TV at like 1230 PM. You know one of those. 

43:49 - Zack Phillips (Other)
I think that episode underrated though. 

43:51 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Underrated. Let's shift back. Wait, wait, a second here. 

43:54 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Wait, producer Zach wants to talk about that episode. 

43:56 - Zack Phillips (Other)
You don't get to pivot back to whenever you want. 

43:59 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You're the guest here, not the host here. Well, I was. 

44:02 - Zack Phillips (Other)
I was just gonna say I think that for that episode, very quickly, what happened was that benson identified that, no matter what he was gonna say, jj was just not going to like yeah, I don't want to say grasp, but like absorb, maybe is the better word no, no, you can say grass, grass is the right word, yeah, grasping it, and then jj also kind of very quickly, was like I don't care how much you're gonna bring to the table knowledge wise, like I really don't give a fuck, I just want to bet yeah. 

44:29
And then it was like yeah, okay, the episode's over, like that's it, that's all right yeah we got an hour to fill. 

44:34 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Okay, it was tough. I in principle that episode in my head was gonna work a lot better than it did. Um, I, I don't have any ill will towards jj gruden, but like, probably about 15 to 20 minutes in I would say that he was completely defeated for one. He could not make a viable argument against Benson other than that, like I just want to bet. I just want to bet, yeah, like, and it was, it was tough. It was it was tough, like. I was hoping he would have some more rational arguments for his style and he just didn't. So it makes it really tough when one person can really argue well, like Jeff can, and the other is just like, yeah, it was tough, tough one. But we can now pivot back towards the underrated give me a. 

45:26 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Give me up, jack, we're pivoting back. Uh, listen, another one, and I don't even know if we can. Maybe they just didn't do it like I don't know, maybe the numbers did better. I mean, I've got to give he's done two. I think 152, and then 48. Telemachus, telemachus. Oh boy, joey K wasn't going to nail that one. 

45:52 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Wasn't going to land that plane. 

45:55 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
You know Telemachus. I found both of his and I know he's working for Roof and stuff so it's hard to. I'm going to have to give you know Roof some credit here. I found both of his episodes very intriguing and I don't even know if they should go in underrated, but I didn't have them in goat tier but I thought they're incredibly informational. I know some smart people that really, really enjoyed his 152. It got a great Agrrin BPR rating. 

46:27 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, we're not optimizing for Hagrin BPR. No offense, hagrin's a very smart guy, like supremely intelligent, but like if every episode we do gets like a 9 Hagrin BPR rating, then like we're going to fail as a podcast. That's like the reality of the situation right. 

46:47 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Right. So definitely a little bit more in terms of in depth, but I found I found his pretty fascinating Both, both ones that I enjoyed quite a bit and it's because if I go, if I try, and you know a lot of them weren't entertainment. But I know when we do episodes together we kind of do some more entertainment based. You can get up a little bit. It's just I was kind of trying to find one. It's like what guess do I find that maybe if you were just looking for some more you know surface level stuff and entertainment would be underrated. But I didn't have one that I thought fit, that fit that bill, Unless you want to go to, you know, 142. 

47:31 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I got some options. So the telemarkets stuff. I would actually suggest people watch both of those interviews. They're highly informative. The first one was looking for the date here of the first time we had him on, but March of 2022. This was prior to him joining rufus's betting group. He was honestly just tracking stuff on bet stamp. That's the reason we actually wanted to have him on was like this guy. 

48:01
Yeah, he's winning on bet stamp. Let's, let's go through his process, uh, and then you know, we come full circle a couple years later and he's working for a bigger group. So they're very different. It's like I, I would, I think those are, I think it's a great, great to call out both of those. 

48:17 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, um, for me if I, if I was, you know if I would have listened to the earlier one. Uh, more timely probably could have been, you know, making me rich instead of rufus. 

48:24 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So, yeah, that's a big fail on my end I mean we interviewed the guy and we thought he was brilliant and you know, listen, he carved out, he's ended up in a very good spot. I'm happy for him. I wish him all the best. Very, very informative interviews. The seventh guest we ever had on was episode 19. It was audio only. It was Eddie Walls. I loved doing that interview. Eddie is very interesting character. He talked through his process for getting ready for college football season, how he bets college football, talked about the emotions of sports betting. No one's ever gonna remember that. Like that's three years ago now and it was audio only Very, very limited listenership, but I thought that was solid. A few others that stand out to me. You're going to hate this. 

49:17 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Well, I hate that one because Eddie and I are like oil and water. We just don't see, like whenever yeah, I remember you would type stuff and like I think he's a good person at heart who kind of drives me insane. It's funny Him and Rufus are back to back the episodes 19 and 20 and they fall in the same category of like. I think they're good, very smart, you know smart, good people. They kind of make me want to jump off a bridge listening to them or reading what they, they're reading, anything that they write. So those are are that again, it's just everybody's got their own flavor, um, and so they just uh, that's why I didn't have either of those in in that category. Not, not not going to be in the worst ever, because I do think there's some intriguing content there, um, but sometimes, uh, you know it, you want to bash my head into a wall listening to eddie or ruth. Okay, you're entitled to bash my head into a wall. 

50:11 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
listen to Eddie or Ruth. Okay, you're entitled to your opinion. 

50:12 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Bash my head into a wall. Listening to Eddie was a great. I didn't give that Eddie. That needed more. Zach, let me cut that out and let me say it again, so it looks more like a great. You know? Segue there. Okay, go for it. I want to bash my head in listening Bash, my, I screwed it up again, leave. I want to bash my head in listening to bash, my, I screwed it up again. Yeah, leave it in. Leave it in Zach. Now just leave it all in so people know I'm not infallible. 

50:36 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
All right, there you go. We'll leave this all in. This is all staying in everything. Uh, episode 83, december of 2022 pisky positivo. Wait, wait, I didn't know we were already on. Worst of all time. 

50:53 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
No no, we're not we are definitely not. 

50:56 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We are in the underrated category. Uh, I love that. I love that episode. Uh, it actually. It actually started a friendship with pisky um, who I think is very misunderstood, but whatever, it's my own personal opinion. But that episode itself is a standalone episode I thought was great. It was like a story of a, of a, of a guy who amassed a bunch of wealth by by finding an edge and exploiting it to the max. Um, I thought. I thought that was a really good episode at the time. I still do. That's going to be my underrated, the most underrated episode we've ever done, in my opinion. 

51:31 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I'm gonna pivot just real quick, like I tend to agree and like, if you would ask me that my opinion, a bit like if I've never, if I never saw him tweet I didn't just listen that episode, I'd be like, oh yeah, pisky, legit. Like if he just stopped tweeting I'd be all in on, uh, pisky, maybe change his name too. Like, just like I can't. Maybe it's the toxic positivity culture we live in, but I agree, I do think that was a good episode. Um, and yeah, until until he got more active on Twitter, I was, uh, I was a pisky guy. 

52:03 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I mean people don't like to see other people happy and he's always happy. So I, I get. I get where you're coming from, kanish. I mean I get where you're coming from, that's probably why we've amassed such big followings on Twitter. 

52:15 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
It's just people like to see misery, so that's really made it up. Episode number 110, Jeff Ma, in my opinion, is our most underrated episode of all time You're going from Eddie Walls and Roof and now you're going to feed me. 

52:32 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I mean, you're just feeding me softballs here and I I thought, um, so we actually had a fire alarm going off over the course of the day when we recorded that, so we had to record it in like three different parts, call them back and cut it off. It might have felt, um, a little bit of disjointed at the time. I had to watch it back when we put it live to make sure it all came together nicely. Whatever you think of Jeff Ma, who is the co-host of Bet the Process with Rufus Peabody a lot of people like him. A lot of people don't like him. I think he's a very polarizing individual. I thought that was an extremely compelling conversation with Jeff. Part of it, I guess, is because I've been on with him and Rufus so many times. I don't know much about Jeff. So, being on the other side of that, I thought that was really fun to do. I guess, just based off of your reaction, you're not a Jeff Ma guy. 

53:26 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
It's funny because I literally would put Jeff in the same category as the Rufus and Eddie of like, but even more like we're like I could go to dinner with Jeff because, I agree, I think he does have some like fascinating like backstory and some work history in that. 

53:41
I just and this is where Joey K cannot take his bias out of it there was a process that you were on where you and I hate to give you the salt, but you were cooking for like the first 20 minutes and I got to go back and see what the where, like you were just on a heater and I remember like I was so into what you were saying and like entry, and Jeff wouldn't stop interrupting you and I remember tweeting it out in all caps. I was so frustrated Like I wanted to reach through the podcast and strangle him and say, jeff, shut the hell up and let Rob talk. So I agree, jeff, much better podcast guest than podcast host. So yeah, but I agree, of the episodes you've listed as underrated, I agree, I think that deserves. He can be a very interesting conversation, very interesting person. A better person to interview than host, for sure. 

54:41 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
And then so, yeah, a little bit of previous history, I would say, between you two. That might have, you know, impact your opinion on that. 

54:52 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
But fair enough, I know exactly which podcast you're talking about, by the way, I know yeah, I gotta go also the best, the best bet, the process of all time, no longer exact. It was the episode that, uh, jeff jeff was talking about like, like bringing over atmosphere models in vegas to like a great part like my favorite bet, the process ever. And it had to get deleted. Uh, cause when he was working at Microsoft, someone like wrote a hit piece on him. That was totally not true. 

55:19 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
But uh, yeah, yeah. Anyways that's that sucks. But we're not here to talk about the bet, the process, episodes to keep. Keep up here with what we. 

55:27 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, let's keep the focus. 

55:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Zach Last couple, I'll give him the under. I'm not going to go through our entire history. I thought that this two-episode stretch was so good. I don't know You're nodding, zach. 

55:44 - Zack Phillips (Other)
I know where you're going to go, because I have them down too and they're back-to-back. 

55:47 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
No, okay, why don't you go first? Okay, episode 126. Wow, 126, 127. Yeah, that's the exact two I was going with. 126 was Dr Eric Eager, who is now the VP of football analytics for the Carolina Panthers. If you cannot watch that interview and come away, as a way, more informed football better, you're beyond help at this point. There are so many good tidbits in that interview. Eric is so good at articulating advanced football concepts to regulars. That was amazing. 127, antonino De Rosa, who started as a Magic the Gathering tournament player and ended up as a pro sports better Amazing story. Lots of great tidbits in there as well. Uh, that might be my favorite back-to-back in history. Didn't rack up a ton of views or listens for either of those, but I would like, leading into football season, listen to that eric eager interview. 

56:47 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Without a doubt, go ahead I I agree like and I I didn't have it because he worked like he worked for the network for so long that I didn't want to sound like we were like. He feels like a cop-out right. 

56:57 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, it's like how my favorite episodes are, how he works with a hammer. 

57:03 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
But I agree, I thoroughly enjoy listening to Eric break down NFL football in a lot of facets, whether it be draft, whether it be play design. Like he is great. He's got some trend hail in him, you know, of being able to break down those complicated concepts and, you know, talk about them. He's a great and so I hope I hope, I mean he's taking quite of a career risk here going I don't know if the team has wanted to turn around, but I'm waiting for it. 

57:33 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Expectations could be lower. Expectations could not be lower in Carolina right now. 

57:38 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Hopefully he's got a set of brass balls he could put on his desk. For you know, I don't know if Tepper's listening to the analytics guy number one, but I wish him the best. I'm hyped for him and I agree because he can. I could see him in a room with a GM and stuff breaking it down like legitimately so they can understand it, and so that's why I could see him having success. You know he's not some, you know nerd or you know he's quoting like a calculus formula talking about why we should draft this guy. He can relate it to normal people. 

58:12 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
One of my favorite things and this is skirting away from the episode uh, I love eric eager. I think he's brilliant, amazing person, like all. Uh, you know he lives in the? U I don't. He must have just moved to carolina, now move the family, so we're not close but like if I grew up with eric, we would be best friends. But the one thing that always fascinated me about Eric Eager is he absolutely loves Jeff Feinberg. Jeff Feinberg, another one of our four. Eric Eager would take a bullet for Jeff Feinberg without even thinking about it. He he would just message me all the time. He's like whenever Jeff is on, like I to I want to be on at the same time, like he's the most entertaining and I I could not grasp it because, like jeff is like the polar opposite of of eric eric's like the analytical guy you know, extremely well informed. 

59:04 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Jeff is like a little bit uh, he's definitely not analytical, he's a little bit more rash in his decision making yeah, both great, like hit a ball and see, see how I'm feeling, and then pick that ticket and then be able to talk about it exactly. 

59:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So, uh, I anyways just wanted to share that story. 

59:21 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Uh, let's keep it moving here, I got one more to throw in. 

59:23
Go for it if you guys in an underrated uh capacity yeah, I don't know if it's going to be for you guys, which is fair and maybe not as much for the other people who are like part of the higher level of gambling twitter, which I would consider you guys in, but like one that was very fascinating for me, or just at least from an, uh, entertainment standpoint, was call cuss service, episode 114. Oh yeah, I think it's like probably not underrated to the people who know him, but I think maybe to people entering the gambling space or trying to learn more about it and just don't understand like what the world, what this world is, that one was one that I took away from being like wow, that was pretty cool to just hear some of that stuff, the stories um him meeting people, how he's gone through it, building his career, building the network, that kind of stuff. I think that was it's just a very entertaining episode. 

01:00:11 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, Episode 114, call customer service. Juan Martinez, as he's referred to in the space, I actually went out to see him about three weeks ago. 

01:00:20 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
This is where yeah, this is where we played golf. 

01:00:23 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
He took me out to his club just north of Chicago. It was an absolute banger of a day. I mean, true story. I'm actually like, oh'm actually like I don't mind admitting this I don't play with caddies when I play. We played with caddies on the course. I got a female caddy which is, by the way, like no problem with that or whatever. 

01:00:44
I felt so much like immense pressure on every shot because it was a female caddy and like I, couldn I, I don't, I like I couldn't play golf that day. Like I was just, I was trying to swing out of my shoes on every shot to be like a man. You know what I'm saying. It was the next day I got like this 75 year old man as the caddy. I was like, thank God, like this guy knows I'm shit, I know I'm shit, like I can deal with that. 

01:01:14
The first drive with this caddy. I piped the drive like one of the best drives I ever hit in my life right down the fairway and like this girl thought I, like she, she's like, yeah, here we go. Like I got like a good golfer. Today I'm standing over in the fairway. I'm like, listen, lady, like what you saw there is not my game, like we're going to be, and then I just like chunk the next shot. It was like so much pressure, completely off topic here, but he's a great guy. It's hard to. It's hard to separate the person from the episode, right, yeah. 

01:01:45 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
And I have a challenge and that's why I didn't have like I would not be where I'm at in the industry, uh or without, without a lot of his uh, working with him and his guidance, uh, and then partnering up with him in a lot of ways. So but I agree, that's why it's like that would never be underrated for me, just because I agree it's very hard to separate that relationship, um, and so you know, and again I put bias in all my opinions here, so that would be kind of why I just didn't want to include it as well. 

01:02:19 - Zack Phillips (Other)
I just thought it should get some recognition. 

01:02:21 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, for sure he has a very good story as well. For what he does specifically and his type of betting, I would say probably best in North America at running the specific props market and like he's just I've worked with him before incredibly thorough, really good dude, really good conversation. I did enjoy that one quite a bit. We're gonna keep it moving here Before we do. If you're still with us, you're probably enjoying the episode, or else why the hell would you still be with us? Smash that like button down below if you're not subbed here on Circles Off yet Again, we still get like 60% of people who watch on a weekly basis who are not subbed to the channel. A lot of you are returning viewers. Doesn't do anything Like it doesn't hurt you at all. Click that sub button if you do want to get notified going forwards of future episodes. Make sure you turn on notifications as well. All right. Category number four. Tier number four the what the fuck were you thinking? 

01:03:20 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
tier worst episodes of all time oh baby, I've been, I've been licking my lip, I was looking at my chops, ready for right now. This is. This is called the uh well, we should name it the ceremonial Joey K tier of worst. Not in terms of worst episodes, just in terms of being able to call out worst episodes. 

01:03:40 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't know why we would name anything after you. I don't care if it's not going to happen bud. 

01:03:45 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
And we're going to be diametrically opposed on this one and I love it and it's because I'm I'm anti everything. This person, it's 145, it's alan boston. Wow, I don't want to hear. I listen, I don't want to hear anything. Yes to say, I don't. 

01:04:06
I don't think he let, I don't think he's still got an edge in the game. I don't find the story that fascinating anymore. I don't want to hear that he worked for Billy Walters 30 years ago. I don't want to hear that you know that people are dropping dead all over the world because of the vaccine. I'm just out Hashtag. You want to call me Joey Lip for that. He's too lunatic fringe for me and I just don't want to call me Joey Lib for that. I just there's two, he's too lunatic fringe for me and I just don't like, I just don't want to get. I he's lost. There's people that I can disagree with, that, that I you know in this space that I can still find interesting and want to hear from. I don't. I don't want to hear what he has to say anymore. I've got, I've had my lifetime fill of Alan Boston. 

01:04:50 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Okay, fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. My opinion of that is that I share a lot of probably the same views on life that you do, I would say myself, and Alan Boston. There's not a lot of overlap on the Venn diagram in terms of our beliefs. But, with that said, I love doing that interview with them. I really did and I watched it back and I was like this was unreal content and people don't know this. We actually we did have to cut some stuff from that interview because it might've violated some YouTube policies or some stuff Like I didn't wanna get a strike on. I wish we could air that in full. We couldn't on the YouTube platform because we're at risk of some stuff, but it was in my opinion. I don't share the same opinion as you, but we brought you on for a reason. Kanish, you're entitled to it. I just don't think this is deserving of the what the fuck were you thinking? Category. 

01:05:50 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
You know what your average listener probably can listen and find some entertainment of it. I I've just, and especially in some of the recent year, like the, the alan boston body of work, no longer I find even I'll say even somewhat like there's a credibility that I find uh some skeptic skepticism with um that I would say where there, like there's a credibility that I find uh some skeptic skepticism with um that I would say where there, where there's some people that I may listen, I may not love hearing from, from porter, or find him a a great listen, but that that doesn't mean that I I know his, his capability and respect what he, you know his ability to earn and find that in the space, whereas I just to me Boston's a cartoon at this point. 

01:06:39 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Okay, that's your opinion. You're entitled to it. What else do we got in the we'll call it the worst of all time list right now. 

01:06:49 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
You know what and this isn't so much the as as what I came in with the, the expectation, and maybe he's just lost his fastball because he's been doing it for so long. It's 131, it's sizzle, um, it's one that I, just the guy's been running the same bit. It's like the. You know, when I I called out, uh, whatever his name was for the bows thing, like for doing it for so, like, like, it's been like 15 years, man, and it's just I, I, I like, I, I didn't, I didn't go into it with bias of expectations either, but I just found like it's been, it's been played, it's the same. 

01:07:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You're talking about the like the clay travis, jason mcintyre. 

01:07:33 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yes, yes, yes, of like that. That's still like I. Just how many times can you go to that, well, over the course of two decades, where and I think, even if you're a newer part of like those people have already like like you don't need to call out Jason McIntyre in 2024 or Clay Trett, like they've already kind of made themselves into, like you know, ridiculous characters. So that's one. I just didn't take anything from it. I kind of knew what it was going to be going into it. I didn't find it much of one that I would, you know, listen to again per se. 

01:08:11 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Okay, that's an interesting choice. So, um, sizzle, as a person, I like him quite a bit because we have a lot of overlap in the music that we listen to like I'm wearing a Gojira t-shirt today. Like we love Metallica, we share, like, guitar videos with each other all the time. Um, so there's that. I had no idea until the day of that interview that he's actually not a sharp bettor and he mentioned that to us off air. I figured this guy is ingrained in Seville, contrarianville, like this group of sharp bettors on Twitter, yet he's not. That was a little bit weird. 

01:08:50
The reason that I wouldn't put this in like the lowest tier episodes is there was a discussion for the last 20 to 30 minutes about potential litigation against touts and whether or not you would be able to sue a tout in a court of law. Sizzles a lawyer by trade. I love that conversation. I thought I didn't like I don't know how we got there. I honestly have no idea how we got there, cannot recall, but that point of the conversation really saved a lot of that interview for me. Uh, but I completely understand your stance on that one episode 131, sizzle, uh, also known as sizzling sports, uh, yeah, okay, fair enough that's it. 

01:09:35 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Well, I mean, no, I got. You want me to keep going, or? 

01:09:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
do you know as many episodes as you want? 

01:09:40 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I don't, I do you, are you able to unbiasedly say ones that you would say, maybe, that you didn't feel went well? 

01:09:48 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
oh yeah. Yeah, I mean listen, like I I'm here to be like honest and transparent, like that's the point of doing this episode. Sometimes it's the guest like to be, with full transparency, like listen, anyone who's ever done interviews before sometimes you just get a guest that like they're not very talkative. It's really hard, that just happens. So sometimes it's a guest. Sometimes I'd look at Johnny afterwards and I'd be like fuck, we know we really should have went harder on this and approached in this direction or whatever. You live and you learn, but I'm surprised you didn't bring up candidly. I'm surprised you didn't bring up the Sharky Waters. 

01:10:29 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Nation episode. That was going to be on the list. Yeah, that was coming. 

01:10:33 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So that was episode 123. We obviously tried to do something very different there because it went Shipper Berry Horse, two extremely sharp guys. Sharky Waters Nation content creator, very likely not a winning better we're trying. 

01:10:57
I just I'm trying to get a different perspective, like we do the same, we do a lot of similar stuff, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I don't know. I just about 15, 20 minutes into that one, I was like I don't really know where we're going to be able to go with this conversation. I just didn't really know, and obviously it doesn't fit in. I don't really regret doing it, though, because it did open us up to a new audience of people that we never would get. 

01:11:26 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, if I'm recalling, I think I checked out of that one early, so that that's probably why it wasn't near the top tier of my worst of all time list, cause I think I just gave that one early, so that that's probably why it wasn't near the top tier of my uh, worst of all time list, because I think I just gave that one, the uh, the old, the old stop button, because I I think I knew very early on, as you're saying it, it was trending in a bad direction yeah, like there's one episode, number 12. 

01:11:48 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
The third guest episode ever was harut. Harut Masoyan works with Armenian Better out in Vegas, pretty heavy hitting group. Harut I've met in person prior to this. Love the guy, like no issues. But you know I go back and I listened to that. I'm like, yeah, this was a terrible, a horrible interview on our like. I don't we basically, you know, no offense to Harut, but like he promoted his group and tried to get accounts for like half an hour of that interview. Not great at the end of the day, right, and probably should have like changed that up a little bit. If I had a redo at that, I would completely change that up. What else was Are? 

01:12:37 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
they still? They've been very, very quiet. Are they still doing? 

01:12:41 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
this. I mean, I don't work with them directly, but I don't know. I couldn't tell you I would be Okay. Yeah, I couldn't tell you. 

01:12:51 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I had just heard something recently that they were kind of out of the game not in a bad way, just that they were cut. But I don't know, I hadn't heard from kind of either of them in quite a while. Yeah. 

01:13:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I mean I think they did fairly well with NFTs as well, betting, I don't know, I have no idea. I couldn't tell you one way or another. That one was rough. Episode 63 was with Derek Stevens and, like we wanted at that time and I still am a big proponent of Circa, I love like the way that they do business and that they cater to all betters we had Chris Bennett on a couple episodes prior, which was amazing interview, and we tried to have Derek Stevens on because they were just like launching this interview. And we tried to have Derek Stevens on because they were just like launching this uh, you know, the survivor football contest and like it would. It was like a a huge thing at that time the prize pools that they were giving away, but it just ended up turning into like an infomercial is what it right it did, and it was hard to like to get out of that. So I didn't like that interview. I'd love a do-over of that one. Um, I mean just yeah, because he's he's kind of a rags to like. 

01:13:55 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
He's kind of got a fascinating backstory that didn't really that could have gotten more, you know, like more into of kind of how how you even go about like being not in the casino business to like owning multiple casinos we try and like. 

01:14:10 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We tried to go down that path a little bit, but we just didn't get anywhere. 

01:14:13 - Zack Phillips (Other)
So like it just didn't work out uh, episode 104 was kevin davis. 

01:14:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You want to talk about the worst timed episode of all time? Kevin davis was doing a secondary podcast here on the circles off channel called 90 degrees. I've met kevin davis uh, many times. He was at my table for a bookie. Better breakfast at the second Bet Bash. He's the most interesting character ever. But we bring him on because we wanna promo his 90 degree show and like a week later he resigns from the hammer because he got a job. That's like a conflict of interest. So like useless episode basically at the end of the day 104 Kevin Davis, love the guy, but like you. Like useless episode basically at the end of the day 104. Kevin Davis, love the guy, but like you're not. You know nothing, nothing there. Those are the ones that mainly stand out to me as very regrettable. I would say. 

01:15:06 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, and you know what, as far I was just kind of trying to find, I don't have another one that I thought was like oh my god, how can I, which is a testament to the podcast of like I don't think there's a like a lot of just absolute bombs per se in the in the history and that's you know say for 160 episodes with ones with a lot of guests? There weren't many where it's like I, I just can't, can't listen to this. So yeah, um yeah sharky waters was. 

01:15:38 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I know what those ones are right like 47 was ed fang. We brought him on to do oh, my god, I forgot. 

01:15:45 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I added on I, I was, that's another, that's another ball drop by me. I probably should make lists so I don't forget these things, yeah, and instead, you know like actually write them down or put them in the spreadsheet, because I had just like Benson and Gruden with the regrettable Ed Fang. Ed Fang is totally on the yeah, I'm going to. Ed Fang used to be part of the like. I listened to a weekly radio segment. It's called the Emgo blog. It's on around here. It's about Michigan sports, michigan football. Usually he used to be on it and it's called the Roundtable. It's like the guy who runs all these like guys who are super into Michigan football. He was on it and would give like his like analytics and it would make me want to jump off a bridge. And then hearing him on the podcast podcast. He actually asked me to do his pod once and I just, I just I shouldn't do that. 

01:16:33 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Ed fang is like the nicest guy. 

01:16:36 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
You've said this to me that he is like, genuinely like one of the nicest people you've ever met um, I I actually like, honestly, be honest, like I don't know why he's disliked. 

01:16:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I I personally don't other than like, okay, he has like a service or whatever, and that generally there's going to be, like this corner of gambling Twitter, that you have a service like you're toast I don't know how it does or whatever, but like he is the nicest, nicest human, like it is not an exaggeration like Mount Rushmore of nice people I've ever met in my life. And the thing with the like the March Madness bracketology stuff. I know that that can get really annoying to the sophisticated, sharp bettors Like me and you Kanish, and probably like 40% of the following of this podcast. We all know how to fill out a bracket and understand, but there's a subsection of gamblers that have no friggin clue how to do anything related to game theory and I think ed is pretty good at explaining that everyone's entitled to their own opinion. People, people don't, don't like that episode. It got like a lot of thumbs down on youtube and stuff like that or whatever, but like I don't, I don't. I think that was just boring. 

01:17:50 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
He's boring to listen to and I don't think he has a lot. That was just boring, he's boring to listen to and I don't think he has a lot of like. I know he's got analytic. He doesn't have that, that eager trend hail skill of like kind of making it very interesting, and I don't think he's got a lot of like genuine betting experience. 

01:18:06 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, oh, so analytics versus right. 

01:18:10 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
It's kind of like that three, you know that hat trick. That's a hockey term of nothingness there, of like doesn't really bet, doesn't really do a great job dumbing down the analytic stuff. Not very entertaining. Three strikes, you're out, Okay. 

01:18:29 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Again, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't necessarily echo it, but uh, that was you know one of them. Okay, are we good with the, the, the wtf category here have? 

01:18:40 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
we sealed the deal. Yeah, I, I wish I had another, you know spicy one or two, but um, I, you know what, I I don't have another one that I'd like to claim that that's good because we've done a lot of episodes. 

01:18:52 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We've done 82 guest episodes, so the fact that you couldn't pinpoint like a dozen that you wanted to destroy. I'm actually really happy about the way that this went. I don't appreciate the harsh words about Ed, but for the most part this went better than expected. 

01:19:08 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
One more and I like the guy, so I wasn't going to 147 with Corby. Yeah, I, I, I can't, I couldn't do it like I, I listen, I, I and I like that's the problem, same where, like you know, ed, like I've done a little bit and I, like corby, I don't want to hear, I, I can't look like I want to hear him. You know like I talk about. So that was one for me that I I wouldn't, but I wouldn't. 

01:19:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It's not like disaster like, but um one that I wasn't super into, um, yeah we we have it's really interesting in in running content because we have a very diverse set of listeners and watchers, right like from the sharp, like hadron watches and listens every week like Like one of the sharpest, like brilliant minds, to people who have like just started betting two weeks ago. 

01:19:59 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
And they want to. So like it's Are you getting him on by if you asked him to do an episode? 

01:20:04 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I have not asked Hagrin to do an episode, but I am very confident if I had to set odds on the response we're looking at like minus 100,000, no. 

01:20:15 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Oh, because his episode, his. He did one pod with he goes by Phil Shepard on Twitter, that's not his name but who did like that and it was one of the most fascinating listen. It was very I would compare it to the AD episode. You did the abnormally dissed episode. Um, it was that type of where, like you listen and your mind's just absolutely blown. 

01:20:40 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So I think he'd be a an interesting but yeah, maybe, well, I mean, it's crazy because you look, look at the way that he reviews podcasts on the Hagrid BPR account, whatever. Like just the thoroughness in which he reviews. 

01:20:59 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I was going to say he's like a computer, he's like a machine, like a human robot. Yeah, I mean, he might not even be a real person, he could just be artificial intelligence as we know it, some of the stuff he did that he was, as mentioned before, of like with with making money where it was like I, I my brain, like I can't like the fact that there's people this smart out there is horrifying to me yeah, it's that, it's. 

01:21:22 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It's actually um, it's actually really tough to interview when the person is that much smarter than you. Yes, you know, like I listen, I'm, I'm not like I consider myself pretty intelligent person. I don't like I want to be arrogant, but like I was advanced grades in school when I was younger, I'm pretty smart. I grasp most concepts, like I. I was trying to follow this guy for some crypto stuff for a couple years and like I'm, I'm lost dude. There's no like I can't. He's on another planet with some of this stuff. 

01:21:54 - Zack Phillips (Other)
So that's why Kanishk is a second chair to Powers on Hit the Books, exactly. 

01:21:58 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, exactly. But it's also like why I love doing these episodes with Kanishk because we get to dumb it down a little bit for the audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can be more of like you know my fourth grade reading level, kind of uh is an everyman, uh, you know type of type of content. We're moving on to the last category and, as we do, by the way, episode 155. Alex bartlett breathes a sigh of relief to not be on the what the fuck were you thinking? 

01:22:23 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
episodes I feel like it was too cliche to put barney on there, but I did and you know what? He gave me a nice moment there, uh, because I do remember reaching out to him, uh, for the first time and him crushing some when the first season of the XFL and moving some XFL for him and he did well. So that was a nice touch and I appreciate and I I do like the guy, so I didn't want to. You know I've already done my Barty Twitter so I didn't want to double down on him. 

01:22:49 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
There you go, Nice. You do actually have a heart Kanish, despite what the people say. 

01:22:54 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I do like the guy, but yeah, I mean listen. Was that a favorite for me? No, but listen. I think some people enjoyed it and he's a smart guy, all right. 

01:23:06 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Tier five. I would like this episode more if the guest wasn't a dork. 

01:23:13 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Decent episode if the guest wasn't a dork. Decent episode but kanishk. We're calling this. This like the trend hail episode. I'm calling this the shipper tier. 

01:23:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Okay, is that it. Is there anyone else that you, you would like more if? If you did like, not that the guest is necessarily a dork, this is badly named. But maybe you don't get along with the guest. Uh, you don't like them personality wise, but they, they, you know you'd have to admit that they, they gave a better interview than you expected 28 plus ev. 

01:23:42 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Um, sometimes, you know he can be one that that kind of. Sometimes it's like what is this guy talking about? It's a little, but I think he does do a decent interview. And you, I mean he's done some stuff for the Hammer Like he can. If you get him in the right setting, I think he can be interesting to talk about. 53, 53 is a great one. The Hitman, you know, if it was anybody but the Hitman I'd probably enjoy it. You know I would have enjoyed it more. But anybody but the hitman I'd probably enjoy. You know I would have enjoyed it more. But uh, you know tough to take the personal bias out of it with uh if it was anybody but him. But I'm glad, glad that we got some retribution with uh. 

01:24:20 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You know his, his performance on forward progress last year yeah, that was a tough season for him which he'll never live down at this point, because you know what we're gonna do this year we have to show the career record as well. Right, it's not like we're just going to all of a sudden. He's going to be 1-0 at the end of week one and we're going to like revert to. He's amazing. We're going to have to go back to last year. I don't even know how many games he won last year, but you could count them on one hand. I'll tell you that you can count them on them on one hand. It's. This is tough for me because I I genuinely don't think we've had too many people on that. I, I actually dislike like I, I disliked gambling frank costanza when we had him on. I disliked shipper when we had him on. I don't know outside of that that I I've really disliked anyone that we've had on so yeah, it's more, I wouldn't put it in a dislike. 

01:25:12 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Uh, there's a category of just people that annoy me, which we've already kind of touched on. Um, I'll put churn in there too. I had him turn off churn in terms of like the he can, he can hit that rufus, eddie walls, jeff, ma level of, especially the. The point in time it was january of 22. Now that I'm looking, it was like our first video episode. 

01:25:35 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Our first video episode is that. 

01:25:37 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
The first one was did churn have? I don't remember did I didn't watch it on video did he have a golf bag in behind him, you know? Because he all he'd been doing for the last 18 months is hitting shots and uh, you know, in a random field, uh, trying to improve his golf game. So yeah, the churn is one that. But on the flip side, kind of like Dr Eager, he does do some phenomenal like football breakdowns of like this is like legitimately like great info to listen to. So I have to give him credit where, like it's not like I can be like, oh, you know, he's an idiot Like the guy. The guy does put out some like very detailed, thorough nfl content okay, we're gonna wrap it up right there. 

01:26:20 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Um five tiers, we'll get these lists posted to twitter. Generate some controversy like we did last time? Uh, hopefully, you know, hopefully we actually do get some videos of people really upset at you. Kanish, that's what I'm waiting for. 

01:26:32 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, I was going to say yeah, record yourself saying you know F, joey K, and then post it. 

01:26:38 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Whether you agree or not. Let us know down in the comments below If you think we missed anything, if you would have changed anything, let us know in the comments below. We do read every single one. I'll probably revisit this at some point or another down the road. Probably revisit this at some point or another down the road. Now there's been a lot of news in this past week on Twitter. I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the situation with Spanky and someone else. Anyways, long story short Spanky being accused of some things in related, you know, threatening someone or scaring someone. I'm not going to comment on that. I don't know if it's real or not. I don't want to speculate. I assume that at some point or another there will be more information that comes out on the situation. 

01:27:26 - Zack Phillips (Other)
We're also recording this hours after this has just initially come out. 

01:27:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Exactly Like. It would be reckless of me to make an opinion on the situation. Maybe more on it next week, Maybe not, We'll figure that out, but Kanish me and you in the last week or so. Some people coming at us. I have some people coming at us on Twitter. 

01:27:47 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
So let's start with you first. Some people getting into the ring? 

01:27:49 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, let's start with you first. So the tailgate tent, who I like as a person. Honestly I don't know of your relationship or whatever. I've tried to get him on before. Maybe he'll come on at some point or another, but he's watching Hit the Books on Monday as always. 

01:28:06
As always, he's always in there. He's in the chat. It happens by in the chat, it happens by the way, if you have no idea what Hit the Books is and you're new here, you should really check it out. I don't like to promo Kanisha's stuff a whole lot, but Hit the Books is part of the Hammer Betting Network. I am the CEO, so I have to do my service here to the business. 

01:28:25
Hit the Books is honestly the best college football content that exists on the planet. I'm not saying that this is completely unbiased. I don't like to pump this guy's tires. It's more so Brad Powers than it is Knish. That brings a lot of the credibility to the program. But check it out on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe leading into college football season. There's gonna be a lot of content that's dropping in the next few weeks Conference previews, futures and then throughout the season, mondays and Fridays. These guys do a great show. Anyways, they're doing a show on Monday a little bit earlier than normal because apparently you had to go, like the chiropractor or something like that. How's your back holding up right? 

01:29:02 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
now you know what? It was a great adjustment. Someone in the comments said maybe it's because you're laying down all the time, sir, as a doctor myself, I'll be the one to diagnose that. But uh, yeah, no good adjustment feeling feeling a little better. 

01:29:17 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Doctor of what? 

01:29:18 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
exactly. It depends what the theme is for that. It's flexible, uh it doctor, you know. Economist, uh medical. 

01:29:26 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It can be depends on what's uh the the situation is because, like eric eager was actually a doctor, he got a doctorate in something, I don't know what it was, not like a, you know, he's not MD, or anything. 

01:29:38 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
During COVID, you know, people like started referring to me as Dr Knish because I'd put out some you know so and that stuck into a lot of people. They still look to me as a medical resource. 

01:29:48 - Zack Phillips (Other)
I think just you. 

01:29:49 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Just you. 

01:29:51 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
All right resource, I think just you, just you, all right. Tailgate tent tweets out nothing more brutal than every monday evening, the clowns at hit the books obliterating markets, with three shops open with penny limits for 65 viewers. It's worse than when some people did release shows during bet online sunday openers. Uh, then, a little bit of like a next message. You know, I think they are both very good at what they do and know what they're talking about, which begs the question why they're destroying markets, knowing there's more in it for them not to do it. Care to share your comments oh wow. 

01:30:29 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
So I'll give you I mean me and the child. It's funny because most of these people that you know we go, I go back and forth with, I work together in some way, like my money takes precedent overall. So me in the the tent, I've known the guy. We've been in a um, a slack together, going back you know six or seven years um, and so I know him personally and I know he's gotten more into. You know he's always been a college football guy but especially the last few years he's gotten the service up and going. It's been, you know, been kind of a growing business for him and I think part of it is he was listen, this is and you know what People. When I first got on Twitter and was growing a following, there would be people that would come at me because I would tweet out my college football plays early on Sunday when BetOnline would open. 

01:31:22
I remember those and I didn't really yeah, or I didn't really understand the full scope of that at that point. So I get it from a sense of yes, I would love if the markets would open and everybody could get whatever they want down, and you know there would be no like. That's just never the way. There always is going to be somebody you know first to market or going earlier or one of that. And, to be honest, with like stuff that we've mentioned on the show a bunch of times there there hasn't been like these, like, oh, this line's two touchdowns off. You got to get it to. You know that, you got to get in there. You know the summer stuff is just just better now and I know like some of that is him wanting to be able to like get more down and be able to release it. And you've saw, you know, I think even uh rass responded to it today that you know when I, if you look at their twitter I don't want to misquote them, but he rephrased it I'll be like you have to provide some incentive and we've tried our best to wait. 

01:32:31
It's not like, you know, the first time a market would open we would jump on the show and instantly talk about it. We've waited, in a lot of cases, weeks, months to talk about some of these markets. But at some point the season's six weeks away, two months away we're going to be talking about win totals and futures now and that stuff. And at a lot of these places yeah, it is some stuff. I mean Power 5 win totals are as available as they're going to be. So it is like the market that's available now. If you can't get what you want down on it, then you're not going to be able to get down on, then you're not going to be able to get down on, so you're just not going to be able to get the number. So, listen, I understand the frustration. I get it because people used to come at me about it years ago. It's just the life cycle of sports betting in general. There's always going to be somebody looking to get down earlier than you. 

01:33:29 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It is kind of how I would respond to that. Yep. The Right Angle Sports account tweeted love the point Telemachus model made in his last circles off appearance. Instead of crying about others ruining early markets, incentivize them, not to make them a better offer, which is interesting in and of itself. Right there, I think there's inherently a challenge with doing content. Listen like at the end of the day, there's a balancing act between making sure you look out for yourself from a betting point of view, but also making sure that what you're giving out on programs where you're doing content, you firmly believe in that stuff and like you're not just sending sheep to the slaughter. That's at least the way that I look at things as long as I've been involved in sports betting. There's always people complaining about people going earlier than them, whether that's whether that's content or it's someone who's moving the market quietly or whatever. It's just another challenge that we all have to face in sports betting. 

01:34:28
With Kanish and I'll share this people maybe don't know the structure of the hammer and how it works. Kanish and Brad Powers own a percentage of the hammer. They're invested in this as much as I am, as much as Johnny is a lot of our other content creators. We cumulatively want to grow this into something big and share the pie. So it's not like he's doing it for no reason. I mean we're trying to put out good content that is useful to the population. 

01:34:57
Like he can go out, kanish can go out on Saturday at 11 45 am, 15 minutes before games kick off and give out picks. It's not doing anyone any service. So I mean I understand the frustration. I talked about this with Kirk Evans last week. I think you have to put yourself in other people's shoes to understand where they're coming from. If I had a pick service and I was betting college football and this was my livelihood and there's people that are publicly giving up plays that I consider to be sharp and moving the market in the direction that I don't want it to move, I would be upset too. But I think he also has to consider your side of the of the. You know the coin as well. 

01:35:40 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
It's frustrating. 

01:35:40
I mean, even you know, in the like there's been a lot of. Nfl draft is the one textbook example I would use, where five years ago it was an absolute cash cow for me and then a bunch of people started, you know, like clicking as soon as those markets are dropping, giving it out, betting for small limits, moving the numbers. Point it was. You know there was an I had to go through an acceptance phase of like me calling these people out or dming that or like being angry about it was going to do nothing. It's not going to make them stop doing, it's not going to make my life easier, it's not going to make it easier for me to get down. There's always going to be somebody trying to go a little earlier. Um, and I agree with ed's point and the the you know telemetry's point point that you know you've got to either find a way around it or incentivize it or be able to have your stuff better where you can beat it later, because there's always going to be somebody trying to go as early as they can. 

01:36:44 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
All right, I also came under some fire this week. I'm not going to say the Twitter handle, just in case anyone gets offended. Redacted Gambler came at me. 

01:36:54 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
This is the new Frank Costanza. Now, this guy, he's like taking Frank's place as far as like, just you know, firing off firing on Twitter. 

01:37:02 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So I didn't see this in real time because I had this person muted already, which leads me to believe that it was probably another account beforehand, maybe changed hand, I don't know. Anyways, the tweet is "'Hey Rob Pozzola, any reason you took credit "'for the March Madness ball angle on circles off? "'as if you thought of it on your own. "'someone DM'd it to you after the tourney started. "'how did you go through uh team social media accounts before march madness? Are you lying? Second tweet this just came across my desk from a source of known integrity and it's a dm between myself and someone else, uh, on twitter. I'm not going to mention their name, I'll just call them x-man uh for now. So last week I was talking with Kirk Evans about this ball angle for March Madness. They changed the balls and I said that I went through social media accounts to look at what teams were using the balls. So here's the full story. This screenshot is a real screenshot. That's in the image. 

01:38:06
Someone reaches out to me, tells me basically what I already know, and my only regret in this situation is maybe not being totally upfront with this person, but this happens to me a lot. So someone reaches out to me says hey, I have this angle, and my response is I love the dedication, it's probably a really good angle. This is me confirming that I think they're going down the right path, because I've already gone down this path before. So it's just a in me saying basically like yeah, you got something here. Like I don't wanna respond to this person who I interact with very regularly and be like, yeah, you got something here. Like I don't want to respond to this person who I interact with very regularly and be like, oh, I've known about this for years, I beat you to the punch. Like that's not how I want to respond to the situation. Play to the party idiot. Cleve TA has brought this up in the past before very publicly. Drew Dinsik has brought it up on his podcast in the past before very publicly. This isn't some angle. That's, like you know, reinventing the wheel. 

01:39:14
Now, where there's where this gets a little bit more complex, is this person, which it's not in the screenshot itself. He reaches out to me again and says this is the list of games where a different ball is being used, games where both teams did not use the Wilson ball, and he lists them all out. I already have another list from someone else who I have doing this stuff that does not match this list. So I got one guy on Twitter on X reaches out to me saying here are all the games you need to know where both teams didn't use the Wilson ball. I have another list from a personal friend of mine I don't want to give out the name, just I didn't get this pre-approved but someone who's known out in the space, who's also sent me a list that does not match this list. So personally, I had to go through social media accounts myself to see which of the lists was correct. 

01:40:17
So, yes, I did personally go through social media accounts where this redacted gambler is wrong. Someone dm'd it to you after the tourney started. No, what happened was maybe the first four games had started, but all this was done prior to the Thursday and Friday tips for March Madness. So this is someone trying to stir the pot. This is why the screenshot is the way that it is, instead of the full context of the conversation. I had reached out to X-Man before this program telling him that I will share the entire contents of the conversation, which I will do, but this is a bunch of talking heads looking for. Clickbait is what it comes down to. It's actually a shame that I have to respond to this, but I do value my reputation. 

01:41:05
A lot of people are responding to this like oh no, rob Pizzola like and he, you know, redacted gambler. Unfortunately, it's a pattern for him. Not the first time, won't be the last. I'd love to hear the other examples. I'm pretty upfront and honest with people. My regret was I didn't tell x-man right away yeah, sorry, dude, I already know about this, I don't need your help. What I actually did, by the way, was actually shared our numbers with him. That included the ball angle, so that he could cross-reference and decide what he wanted to play. Anyways, I've already spoken way too much on that situation, but I do want to clear the air, because I honestly hate when my name is dragged through the mud. 

01:41:47 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
And you know what I saw, that I actually got it sent to me from a few people. Uh, it's a Rob's canceled now. So, uh, I appreciate you clearing that up. I, this person, is definitely the, the. The redacted account is a. I don't know who it is, but it is not a a new person to the space. So it definitely appears to have someone that has a bone to pick with some people, but you being one of them and obviously got under it. He's made some jokes my way, but nothing that you know. He was serious, I would say, but yeah, so that obviously was put out in a way to stir the pot, as you mentioned. Yes, X-Man. 

01:42:34 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I reached out to him privately. We had a conversation. He said that he did share the screenshot, was not his intention for it to be posted publicly, doesn't want any drama, appreciates having me as a resource to talk through these things. People trying to start some shit for no reason and that's exactly what happened in this situation. So, obviously, whoever the fact that I had this account muted before I had ever seen it or interacted with it leads me to believe that in some way or another, this person has already come after me in the past. And yeah, that's all I can say on the situation. 

01:43:08
But I certainly did not want to make it seem like I invented this angle. But I did go through social media accounts. I did have to, you know, figure out what basketballs they were using in practices and things of that nature, and this was before the March Madness tournament because I was getting conflicting information. So that's the full story and the extent of that. Kanish, last time we had you on, uh, I asked you to give a plus ev or minus ev move of the week. You were completely caught off guard as if, like you, had never listened to the end of any episode before you promoted that was the. 

01:43:40 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
That was two times ago, the last time I did the yeah what did you do? Like a? 

01:43:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
local fruit juice place or some something like that. Yeah, yeah, you've had the worst. The plus ev moves. Uh, in the history of the show, do you have another one for us this week? 

01:43:56 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
well, that's why I'm not an originator. Uh, I got a plus ev move and it's go see if you're having don't if you're having any nagging, nagging pain, nagging issues, don't just let it as you get, especially as you get now. Or you know, you know, in the 30s, the mid, later, 30s is when all of the things that you've ignored for your entire life start really cropping up, and one for me, it was my back. Uh, so I've had some pelvic, pelvic and hip and back issues that I was ignoring forever. Just go, go see a physical therapist, go see a chiropractor, you know, go and get it done. 

01:44:40
I'm, physically, honestly, been feeling the best I have in a long time, um, and it's because a few months ago I started seeing, you know, going to a physical therapist, getting in a deal, getting adjustment in that, um. So I would say plus, take care of your body, even if you're a younger guy, in your low 20. You will pay it, the father time will come, a call and at some point, um, as it did for me, and it's a lot easier if you start taking care of that stuff when you're younger than it is, when you start doing it, uh, and you, if you wait till 35, so the the long dips in the hot tub weren't weren't cutting it. 

01:45:12 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You had to see. Seek out a real. 

01:45:13 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I had to actually yeah, yeah, they said well, no, sir, you need to actually like stretch and uh, do some more activity as opposed to just soaking this thing all day. That that doesn't. That doesn't fully do it all right, you know what? 

01:45:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
still not a great one, but much better than previous episodes. 

01:45:29 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
So we're working our way. I'm getting there, but you know you got some pain. Seek out a medical opinion and get it taken care of by episode, especially in america, where you can't, you don't have to wait in line, all that like the communist health care you guys got, but uh, yeah, by episode 302. 

01:45:43 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Well, no one's waiting in line for, like, a registered massage therapist or chiropractor. That's not happening over here. Not a huge fan of the health care, but I just want to. It's just so we don't get like a misinformation tag here on youtube. 

01:45:57 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Yeah, yeah, so I would book an appointment and you go. It's what happens yeah, yeah, okay, I'll take off my ellen boston hat and you can get back to you know, finishing closing this baby out zach, you got anything uh, yeah, plus ev is buying frozen vegetables frozen vegetables yes, I think that the reason way. 

01:46:17 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, I would say that's a minus ev no oh yeah, guys, guys, I'm 25 years old I'm 25 years old, I have roommates, I have a small fridge freezer space that is shared. 

01:46:31 - Zack Phillips (Other)
It's not that easy to like accommodate your fridge situation between three people like that to have food always ready to go, to be like in that situation. So having frozen vegetables that are there that are just easy to do at the snap of a finger, kind of thing that can be tucked away. It's easy to put away like have on deck and I know you're gonna say, oh well, you could just have the same thing with fresh I wasn't gonna say that. 

01:46:58
People will say that yeah and I know that that comment is coming it's more just for timeliness. That kind of thing takes away space from in the fridge that I can put other things that I need in there. So having frozen vegetables and then they don't also need to be eaten in a certain time span, Quick time span. 

01:47:19 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
If you had more room, would you recommend frozen vegetables as a plus EV. Because they probably taste like shit. 

01:47:28 - Zack Phillips (Other)
I wouldn't say they taste like put like a lot of salt and pepper on there you guys season those things plus the salt that's in them, so they stay fresh in your freezer for two years, right, um, I would say that if, if I different lifestyle or different living situation probably would not be my plus tv, but over the last like little while, this has been very, very helpful for me all right. 

01:47:50 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I would say if the hammer paid you a living wage, you'd be going and getting fresh vegetables daily instead of eating. You know, corn that's been in your free. That's probably got the frostbite on it. Uh, you know, for for three months there. 

01:48:02 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So yeah, I feel for you, zach we'll clarify here if you're 25 years old and you share fridge space with someone else, then get yourself some frozen vegetables. 

01:48:11 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all I had. I only have a plus EV this year. 

01:48:15 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I only have a plus EV as well. Listen, I'm a big proponent of telling the truth in life. Being honest, transparent, it's honestly what I stand for. But there are some situations where it's maybe not the best to be truthful. Uh, I've been doing this for years. I don't think my wife is going to listen to this episode, because I don't think she likes kanisha's voice very much. So I think I'm in the clear here. I'm in the clear here. 

01:48:40 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Oh, baby if you got, how old was she? This, the, the, the golf cart, you the caddy girl. 

01:48:50 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That's not where I'm going with it, but similar. Honestly, I played this card on that trip as well. If you have a spouse, a significant other, whatever girlfriend, boyfriend and you go on a trip that they can't go on, or you do anything, for that matter, that they cannot do do, and you have a great time, you have a blast you do not come home and tell them you had a great time. You in fact do the opposite. You come back home. How was your golfing trip? You know what? Rained every day, got soaked, played terrible. You cannot come back home and be like "'You know what, babe? "'it was the best week ever with all my buds, "'i'm gonna do it again in a few months, "'like I'm planning to'". You do not do that. Everything you do without your significant other there miserable, sucked you come up with some way to tell them. You know what? I drank too much on the first night. I was so hung over the rest of the trip puking my brains out. 

01:49:58
This is the one instance where I can support lying. I don't feel proud of doing it. But it's worse if I tell her I had a blast and then she's gonna feel left out. So sometimes you just you just gotta do what's right to make your significant other feel good. So this is a trick I shared with uh call customer service many years ago when we first met at MIT Sloan. 

01:50:27
He's like I didn't bring the wife out. I said you know what? I'm gonna go home and tell her I had a brutal trip, like I always do. He said what do you mean? I explained the situation. It's worked for me for years. I love my wife to death. But you can't go away from them and come back and be like I had a blast. Like no one wants to hear that Everyone has FOMO right. Like you don't want to hear someone else had a great time without you. That's not going to sit well. So the one instance where I support a little bit of fibbing plus EV move of the week you travel without your significant other. Don't come home and tell them you had an amazing time. 

01:51:05
I mean if you want to say it was okay, that's fine. You don't maybe don't have to go complete opposite end of the spectrum, but trust me, it's worked for me for years. 

01:51:15 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
It'll work for you yeah, you gotta leave out that. And uh, the drinks with the cart girl or whatever it was. That, yeah, yeah, that. So, yeah, yeah, you gotta, you gotta keep that out, the drinks at the cart I had a female caddy. 

01:51:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
She's very professional, she's very professional, it's just. I felt a lot of pressure. 

01:51:33 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Never seen a female or heard of anyone having a female caddy in my entire life Neither have I I swear to God like that. 

01:51:39 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Listen, I'm not like a male chauvinist or anything like that, like I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but I play golf with like men. But I play with a golf with like men. I'm used to being around men all the time on the golf course. It's not to say that women should. I just felt a lot of pressure because it was a woman and like I felt less manly, like when I shank a ball into the woods and it's all my buddies around and like this this seven year old caddy where he's like yeah, don't worry, you're not even close to the worst player I've seen Like I feel great, but I just felt an immense amount of pressure. 

01:52:11
She was very nice, she read the putts well Like I. Just I was like my heart was pumping all day. Man, I couldn't play. I couldn't play under those circumstances. Yeah. 

01:52:26 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
I listen, I hear you. 

01:52:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah. 

01:52:31 - Joey Knish (Co-host)
Anyways, cancel me for that take, but it's. 

01:52:32 - Zack Phillips (Other)
This is how I felt how I felt. 

01:52:33 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Uh, I do support female caddies as well. I'm not saying I shouldn't. Maybe if I do it more often I'll get used to it a little bit more and, uh, don't have to be like a macho man trying to swing out of my shoes on every single shot. All right, that's it for us. Make sure you smash that like button down below if you're not subbed here. Sub here on Circles Off If you're listening in audio form. Please, for the love of God. Leave us a positive review. All those go a long way to getting us elevated on Spotify, apple Podcasts. We need all that we can get. We want to crack the 10K subs here on YouTube. We're getting closer. We're now up to about 8K, so make sure you smash that like button down below for myself. Rob pazola, fake johnny over here on the right, zach phillips, my producer, uncle k or sorry, dr uncle k who joined us here on circles, dr knish hashtag mr electric hashtag mr electric. 

01:53:25
uh, yeah, I think that's it. We're out, peace out. See you next week. See you guys.