00:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
On episode 74 of Circles Off, we have a brand new presenting sponsor that we're very excited about. We also welcome in Hammerbet community content writer Ferris, where we talk about syndicates, real syndicates and also getting stiffed. Get your mind out of the gutter With that. Let's start the process. 

00:21 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
All right, welcome everybody. Episode 74. Rob any numbers? Numbers, oh yeah, what do you got? 

00:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
uh, okay, this is like obviously not a mainstream one, but joe nathan or 74, okay for a long for 13 years okay, mlb closer, oh, joe nathan twins yeah, I do know who that is. 

00:41 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, for a long time Canadian yes Is he Maybe. 

00:45 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't think, so I don't know why I said yes right away. 

00:48 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I have to double check. I got a Canadian here. He's actually, I believe, Belarusian, but he was on the Montreal Canadiens Sergei Kostitsyn. 

00:56 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We're on a rush of Canadians, because 73 was a ton of Montreal Canadians. It it was like Michael Ryder and a bunch of guys. John Carlson of the Washington Capitals is number 74. There's got to be some offensive line. Joe Nathan was in fact born in Houston, Texas. Here we go. Joe Staley wore number 74 for 104 NFL games. 

01:20 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So we have some really big news to announce. As of episode 74, this podcast, circles Off, is now presented by Pinnacle Sportsbook in Ontario and Canada, not available in the US. Pinnacle Sportsbook, our brand new sponsor. We are stoked to have them. This is one of the absolute best sportsbooks for the player. We've talked about it many times, a lot of different things that sports books do wrong. Pinnacle does them all right and we're happy to have him as our presenting sponsor. Rob, why is pinnacle your favorite book? 

01:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
it's where the best bettors play is the reality of the situation, and that's something that is very important to me. But it's a low vig book and that is extremely important to have in your arsenal. When you bet on sports. You win more, you lose less. Plain and simple. If you're betting into low VIG, you have obviously a break-even rate that is much lower than everything else. So happy to be presented by Pinnacle Sportsbook one of the world's sharpest sportsbooks. 

02:18 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, and we're not going to do this every week, but I do think for the first episode it is very fair for us to share. You know a couple of things that Pinnacle does well very honest and open feedback. Rob and I are not the kind of guys that are going to take a sponsorship, for. You know something that we don't necessarily believe in With Pinnacle my favorite part about their sports book and you don't get this in the regulated market outside of Circa Sports, which you know we've had a few members on from, but Pinnacle in Canada is the only place in the regulated market that will not limit your action for winning too much. Pinnacle has very fair posted house limits. They're always going to take that max bet. 

02:57
As we've referenced, the actual premise and name for our show, circles Off is an ode to an old bookmaking reference from Pinnacle and some other sites back in the day, where they would raise the circles and then eventually take them off when they wanted to take bigger max bets. What this does, though, compared to your average sports books in the regulated market right now, is gives the player a fair chance to understand what the max bet is. It doesn't matter who that player is Could be me, could be Rob, could be Zach behind the desk could be anyone. They can get that max In the current market. Right now it just doesn't happen. 

03:35
Some players might have a really square account lost a bunch of money. You're able to bet a lot more. Other players might have won a lot of money and now they're only able to bet 12 bucks. Pinnacle players might have won a lot of money and now they're only able to bet 12 bucks. Pinnacle will not limit you. That is the best feature of their sports book. It's very, very refreshing to see that. And finally, a spot in ontario. Uh, as of you know, the recording of this podcast pinnacle is now live in ontario. You can sign up um visit pinnacle and it's one of the sports books you need to have. 

04:03 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Simply put, we've done a lot of episodes of circles off on price and it's one of the sports books you need to have. Simply put, we've done a lot of episodes of Circles Off on price sensitivity. It's extremely important to always shop for the best number. It's very easy to find the best price available in market at Pinnacle because of the fact that they're often dealing minus 104 on both sides of the game rather than minus 110. And that's extremely important. If you're $100 better and you lose, lose a bet, you lose six bucks less and that doesn't sound like a whole lot, but all of this stuff adds up over time. If you're betting underdogs, you're going to win more. So I'm very happy to be partnered with pinnacle, their sports book that I have personally used for the vast majority of my life. They've always treated me fairly well and I think it's a sports book that you need to have in your arsenal, plain and simple. 

04:44 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, we talk about having multiple sports book. This is one that you know no matter what, you've got to have at least, at all times, some cash in pinnacle, whether it be playing back in a position, finding a good line, building out different positions. This is the book you need, because they're offering liquidity with zero risk of like, hey, my account's going to get limited or this is going to happen, or whatever. It's a very safe spot to play. Uh, and obviously now under the regulated banner, within Ontario. So, um, not available in the U? S, unfortunately, but uh, to everyone who is in Canada go sign up to pinnacle today, all right let's switch gears. 

05:22 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We now welcome in our guests this week. He goes by the alias of Ferris. We'll talk about that a little bit. If you want to read some of Ferris' work, he has a couple articles published on thehammerbet. One is what's a Betting Partnership, which is a fantastic read. We'll talk about that a little bit more, and also a new article that got published last week, so you Got Stiffed. Very interesting as well. Highly recommend checking both of those out at the hammer dot bet. Ferris, welcome to circles off. How's it going? 

05:53 - Ferris (Guest)
it's going great. Thank you guys for having me. This is a pretty surreal um. I kind of want to say it's a dream come true to be talking with you guys, but I feel like that's pretty intense. Uh, maybe me better dreams if that's the case, but thank you yeah, no problem at all. 

06:08 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So is this one of those, uh, long-time listener, first time caller? 

06:11 - Ferris (Guest)
exactly right, exactly right we appreciate that. 

06:14 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Thank you for the support and, uh, echoing what rob said, both the articles posted on over at the hammerbet were phenomenal reads, not only from an informational standpoint, but also, ferris, you seem like a really good writer as well, so I definitely urge you guys to check those out. They're stuff that doesn't exist right now in the space. Most people like to write about picks. They sometimes like to write about strategy and recent terms. You have a lot about origination. You know how do I build a model and how do I do this, but few people actually openly talk about how a betting partnership works, how you can give accounts and get accounts, and how you could deal with a lay down or a stiff which is essentially, you know someone owing you money and then not paying you. So read those articles. They're awesome. We're going to get into them. On the episode today Rob. 

07:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, so we'll start with with this. Ferris, obviously we like to get some sort of introduction with every guest that we have on the show. I don't know much about you, johnny doesn't know much about you, so give us some of your personal background and, essentially, how you got involved in the betting space. 

07:13 - Ferris (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely. I want to make it very clear off the top I'm a nobody, I'm not special, I have not figured everything out. I think the number one thing I have going for me is I'm your listener. I am the regular, average, everyday person who has picked up stuff here and there, listening to content, reading content and diving into the space as much as I possibly could. So I'm a nobody. My background in betting this stopped me, if you've heard this before it started young middle school, high school. I had a friend who he said he was going to be a bookie but he wasn't booking the bets. He was just like finding two people that wanted to bet against each other and logging it in his notebook. So, like you, you weren't a bookie, you were just like a scribe, you were like a secretary. 

07:57
He kind of forgot to take the VIG, so we started middle school I think I'm around the same age as you guys mid-30s we were around for the poker boom, the Chris Moneymaker stuff, espn airing, all of it so we started up poker games. Natural progression from there was, you know, march Madness pools, fantasy sports and then sports betting. I had a friend who had the guts to open up an offshore account. You know, like many of us do, I texted him a $5.17 parlay it was my first ever parlay, so you know it's hitting guaranteed winner Won 300 bucks and I was off, had the guts to open my own offshore account and made many, many, many deposits over the course of college years and then eventually made my way into kind of the space I spoke about in this article on the hammer. 

08:47
I got into PPH world paperhead world and spent the 2010s losing, losing, losing and then losing some more. And, rob, as you've talked about my years, I've probably been gambling on 18 years on sports. 14 of those 18 are losing years. Now I'm a lifetime winner now because the units have increased and the money has increased. What I'm getting down, but 14 of the 18 years I've lost money. I know exactly what it feels like. I know what it's like to sit there on Sunday night and you're trying to get under the settle number and you can't and it feels terrible. So spent the majority of my betting career, losing, losing, losing paperheads, offshores, um, and that's it, not nothing. You know no major group, I'm run, uh, I run, or anything like that. I'm just a regular better. 

09:33 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So obviously we, a lot of us this is like probably 95%, if not more of the guests that we've had on circles off or people that I've talked to about sports betting start with a similar story which is losing for a long time For you. What allowed you to transition from being a losing better to a winning better? Like was there an aha moment? Was it something that just gradually happened over time? Basically, share your personal experience on making that shift, because there's a lot of people out there that, frankly, are losing betters and they feel like they're stuck in it forever. So what was that you know that like for you in graduating to being a winning bettor? 

10:12 - Ferris (Guest)
For sure the message I'm going to send. First and foremost, surround yourself with the smartest people you can find. I am a product. 100% of my success comes from the people around me, without a doubt. Now I'm not going to be completely humble and say I haven't figured some things out on my own and I network my butt off. But surround yourself with I found people that were like-minded and much I considered them way more intelligent than me. 

10:36
A friend that I had had since I was five years old. We've known each other for decades. He eventually took an interest in the sports gambling space and he started to teach me things. I had been in it way longer than him, way more years than him, and yet he was running circles around me almost immediately. So I'm just a sponge. Take it all in, listen to him. He can look at an Excel spreadsheet or Google sheets or whatever, and he can just build, just build. He can look at a blank spreadsheet and figure out a way to model things, and I was forever grateful for him to just start letting me in on that sort of thing. 

11:05
There was necessarily no like all of a sudden hey, I got to figure this out, other than and I know, rob, you've kind of touched on this in the past. I probably got close to problem gambling. In fact, I probably showed some of the problem gambling signs in a part of my life where I could not afford to have problem gambling. Obviously, you get older, your family comes into play, career. Um, problem gambling is real and it can't let you can't let it affect your life. So essentially I had to sit down and tell myself you've got to figure this out or you've got to give it up. Um, I'm not wanting to go cold Turkey off things. So I was I'm going to try and figure it out. I'm going to try and do the smart thing. I'm going to try and find the right people. Try and do the smart thing. I'm going to try and find the right people. Uh, and I'm going to try and make money betting on sports. 

11:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, that's interesting. Uh, I mean, obviously, if you're betting on Sunday nights to try to get under your, your settle figure, that is the exhibit of problem gambling. 

11:55 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
What he means by that for anyone listening is uh, if you, for example, had a number said to your bookie hey, if I lose or win, 2000, is when we're gonna have to actually exchange the money. If it's anything under that, we'll carry it forward a week, right, so if you're at down 2400 or down 2800, then on sunday night you may have to place a 900 bet, just so if you win it, you're under and then you don't have to pay, you don't have to come up with the money. But that is a real issue, for probably it's chasing you're 100, it's just a listen. 

12:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We've all been there at some capacity. You don't want to have that meetup, so you make a bet that you wouldn't have placed otherwise, just because there's the chance that you don't have to have that meetup, and then, more often than not, you probably end up losing. 

12:36 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I was with our good friend Spanky in Boston a few years ago and somebody asked him spanky, how do I get a pph account, how do I get one of these credit bookie accounts? And uh, the answer he gave I think he told us on his podcast as well. He said he said got a barber, said go to your barber and ask him if he knows any bookies. He's like chances are he is a bookie himself. But anyways, great funny answer, uh. But I want to know how did you get into the pph world? How did you get your first one? 

13:08 - Ferris (Guest)
friend of a friend completely lucked into it. I know everybody that's looking for a pph account. They're looking for it. This is guaranteed to get you an account. If you do this, this and this, you luck into it. You I've heard of of late. 

13:20
I'm not a country club guy but I've heard country clubs are ripe with sports betting accounts. Maybe I should go join one. That might take a dent out of the bankroll, I guess, but it might be worth it in the long run. But country clubs, sports bars, don't be quiet. You know, when you're talking with your friends about betting at a sports bar, you never know. You know you have your PPH account up. Someone there might have one themselves and you start comparing notes. You start comparing notes. You kind of have to look into it. No bookie, because again I'm sure we're getting this it's illegal. Booking bets without a license from the government is illegal and they're not exactly broadcasting it. Don't ever trust the Twitter people. Don't ever trust the guaranteed payout on Twitter books. They're going to screw you over. You find PPH accounts through some luck and then putting yourself in the right spot. 

14:09
Poker rooms are another one. I haven't played poker in so many years I don't even know if I remember how, but poker rooms I'm sure would be another great place to start. But, like Spanky mentioned the barber stuff. I know it's more of a joke, but things are. Everything's progressed. It's not so much old school anymore. I think sometimes Spanky speaks like he's still. It's still like the in the 50s and 60s, but he's awesome. I love Spanky. It's just like things aren't the same as they used to be. 

14:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't know yeah, uh, if I could share a personal story, probably about four years ago I was doing some stuff with Joey Toons who's another professional better and he was in Toronto. Uh, came to visit for a couple days, hung out, went to a Blue Jays game baseball game, blue Jays and Yankees and the two guys sitting behind us were complaining about how they were going to lose their bet on the game. The Jays were getting smoked in that game by the Yankees. Toon stands up, turns around. He's like you guys are losing bets, you guys actually want to win some bets Like I bet for a living, let's exchange numbers Like no shame, nothing like that and ended up working with those guys guys that he met in Toronto that never met in his entire life before. So, honestly, it really is just like putting yourself out there Like you hear anything related to sports betting. Why not take a shot, right? 

15:20 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, it's crazy, you need to be able to put yourself out there, I guess, but it is as you mentioned. Yeah, it's crazy, you need to be able to put yourself out there, I guess, but it is a, as you mentioned, technically booking bets. You know, betting is 100 legal, like actually just physically placing a bet, but booking bets is illegal. So, um, it's obviously hard to find someone who's just openly talking about doing something illegal or knows someone, or you know what I mean. It's it's not not great yes, uh. 

15:41 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So we want to talk a lot about syndicates, betting partnerships, stuff along that lines. First and foremost, just to give everyone some context behind why we're having you on to discuss this. Can you talk through your first experience with a betting group and basically how you got involved with that? Because obviously there's collecting accounts is one thing, but now actually connecting yourself with people that win, an actual group that wins, that can help you win how did that all come to be? 

16:11 - Ferris (Guest)
Yeah, so I'd always heard about it. I'm part of Gambling Twitter. I don't tweet, but I read everything. I consume as much content as possible. 

16:19
I was part of the right angle sports Slack the discords out there and I'd always known that there was these people that gather accounts and they're constantly talking about how much they win. They love blasting off those screenshots of winning weeks. It's funny, they never blast off the losing weeks, but they blast off those winning weeks. Um, and I knew they were out there. Um, I have two partners that I work with, two friends. One I've known forever, one um, that I've actually only ever met, over Zoom. It's really funny. I talk with him all the time. He's from Seattle, washington and I've never actually met him in person. 

16:49
But those are my two partners and we were originating small market stuff for a group, which means we were coming up with the bets, we were telling them what to play and then they were getting us more money down than we could ourselves. That's due to being limited at offshore accounts, like your bet online or your heritage or whatever it may be and getting kicked off of PPHs or the small market that we had wasn't actually listed on a PPH account. So we were getting down through this group. We knew that they collected accounts. I collected four or five myself and I was kind of betting whatever I could into them. 

17:21
I eventually just decided to take the plunge and I said, hey, here's five accounts. I have no clue how this works, I have no idea what this looks like, but here's five accounts. Please go win me some money. Okay, I know that I can win in my small market, but I know that I can't beat all these other player props. I know that I can't beat major markets, I can't time the market, I don't know what I'm doing. Essentially, take these accounts, go win me some money. And they did. They took the four or five accounts and I saw them. They started winning money and it was awesome. My first relationship with a betting group was very positive. They were great people. With time comes experience and you kind of learn about what you want to see and what you don't, and some groups do win more than others. This group won, they won, but that's essentially how I got into. It was originating for them and then just giving them my accounts on top of that. 

18:09 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Right. So now you say you know, eventually, you just took the plunge, started handing over accounts. What gave you the confidence level in this group particularly, or whoever you were dealing with being a winner, because one of the the challenging things in the space right now is the amount of people who misrepresent themselves right, like the twitter screenshots, exactly as you mentioned. Right, people are going to post their winning weeks. They're not going to post their losing weeks. There's, um, basically so like so many ways to mislead someone into believing that you're actually a winning better at this point. So was this just a calculated gamble on your end? Did you have people vouch for other people, so on and so forth? What gave you the confidence basically to work with them? 

18:53 - Ferris (Guest)
Yeah, I think it had a lot to do with they were getting down for us with origination and they were always good for the money. Which is huge in this space is when you want to get paid. They paid on time, no questions asked. But beyond that, this space is very reputational based. You ask around, you ask what groups win, what groups don't. Yeah, you might hear that they had a bad two weeks, but for the most part, lots of the groups win. 

19:17
If you're scared of taking the plunge and you're not sure about a group, if they win or lose, ask around, like you said, go into the discords, go into the slacks. I think my article on the hammer I actually linked a couple of these, these groups you can go into free, completely free. Go in there and just post hey, can I trust? So-and-so you'll get a few DMS. They'll be honest with you. 

19:37
Gambling Twitter is our gambling space in general. Is is honest, if nothing else, for the most part, when they part, when they're giving you advice about someone, ask around, get the vouchers and then, when it's so reputational based, these guys, if they do, consistently lose week after week after week. I was willing to lose at the beginning. I was willing to say okay, if they aren't actually as good as they say, I'll get the test out, I'll test drive it and if it's not working out I'll pull the accounts back, no problem. Okay, it might cost me in the short term, but in the longterm it's the right decision. So, asking around, seeing their actual performance for a couple of weeks, it was very clear, very obvious early on they were going to be long-term winners. But I think, more than anything you just got to kind of you have to take a chance at some point. You really do. 

20:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, agre, agreed. How do you go about negotiating stuff like that? Or you know when, when you're pretty raw in the space and you haven't been sharing accounts before, what was that first process like in handing over accounts? Did you take free roll deals? Were you a risk partner? Walk me through that. And, and if like, if you also leverage the like gambling community whether it was discords or slacks to help you navigate your way through setting up that actual partnership. 

20:45 - Ferris (Guest)
So I like, I like taking on risk. Um, I, I want to go 50, 50 off the jump. I would I would love to go 75, 25 my way, but that's probably just not going to happen. Um, most groups just kinds of uh to kind of pause groups are willing to go 50, 50 with you If you're willing to share in the wins and the losses. There's also free roll scenarios where you only get the upside and you get none of the downside, but the account has to be lifetime positive. That's more like a free roll situation. 

21:13
But I was going to go 50-50. I wanted to go all in, I wanted to make money and this was the way I saw doing it. The way that I thought to grow this fastest was to trust them and let them put in the bets and then get my piece of it and then figure out okay, is this group good enough, or can I actually move on to the next? I didn't want to be, I didn't want to like hurt the relationship or anything like that, but I wanted to. This is just like if you had a financial advisor in real life. This is your money, it's your performance. You have to figure out what is the best way to make it grow fast enough and I thought okay, I'm going to treat them like they're my financial advisor. If they're making me money, awesome, I'm going to keep rolling with them. If not, I'm going to move on to the next. 

21:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Right. And now where did that leave you with your own personal betting? Because you said you were originating some small market stuff. You're now handing over accounts to, to other people who are winning in those accounts and you're collecting profits. Are you continuously doing both? At this point, do you just cut out your origination? Walk us through that, essentially because I know a lot of people who have gone down the path of originating, like you were to start, and they were making some money, but then they started working with some bigger groups and they're like oh, I'm making a killing here and I don't really have to do any work. Why am I wasting my time with this other stuff? So just curious what your experience is like and what your day-to-day betting looks like now actually my personal betting. 

22:34 - Ferris (Guest)
You want to keep making bets because you want to become a better, better, but it's hard to do it in the account when they're tying up a lot of the credit. Okay, so when you're handing off an account, you're handing off an account with 2000,. 3000, maybe, I don't know, $10,000 worth of credit. On the high end, they're going to fill that account up with bets. They're going to bet all sorts of stuff that you some of it, you know some of it. You're like what is this third tier soccer league that I've? I'm pretty sure doesn't actually exist. They're going to fill it up with all sorts of stuff and you want to keep betting. But it's really hard to do that when you know that you have losing stuff for the most part, or maybe break even stuff, and this group is going to fill it with winners. Why in the world would I take up credit that my group can't use and fill it with losing bets? Why would I not just sit back, let the bets roll in, let the winds roll in and let it go from there? 

23:17 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I will say, being on the other side of that sometimes, and maybe you could speak to this as well I would love for someone that I take an account from to keep betting into the account and firing some losers in there, cause those are technically the ones that last the longest as well. It's a nightmare for record. Keep for accounting on Mondays and stiffs on top of that for sure, which we'll get into as well. But I think in a lot of times, you know, I I used to be very opposed. I take an account from somebody, I'd be very opposed to them betting into it. I'd be like no, no, no, no, this is done Like you're handing over the account now in full and we're taking it Over time. I've kind of changed my stance on that. It does make the, like I said, the accounting on Mondays much more difficult to navigate through bets, but I find that it actually keeps the accounts open longer nowadays. 

24:02
So anyways, that's just a little bit of a tangent on that, but particularly wanted to get back to the you know basically the discussion around. You know, essentially, let's quickly move on here. We've covered a lot of stuff that's like maybe a little bit more fine-tuned, so to speak. Let's go to high level really quickly. Just pull it back for one second. So one of our most viewed episodes of Circles Off ever was when me and Johnny watched an interview that Ross Tucker did with Simon Hunter of the Action Network, where we dissected that interview, where Simon was talking about how he works for a syndicate and we obviously strongly disagree with his definition for a syndicate and we obviously strongly disagree with his definition of a syndicate. Based off of that, how would you personally define a syndicate or a professional betting group? 

24:56 - Ferris (Guest)
Yeah, and first of all, that episode was fantastic For the record. Everybody needs to hear this. We need more of that. I'm not saying to shit on people for no reason. I'm saying let's police each other. If someone's going to go on a podcast and mislead their listeners like that, he, that was so full of shit. That entire interview was awful. Call it what it is. Okay, I have no problem saying that. I would love to talk with Simon and let him know he sounded like a moron. I'm sorry. Love to talk with Simon and let him know he sounded like a moron. I'm sorry With that said. With that said syndicates, betting groups, professional groups, whatever you want to call them. 

25:34
How I look at them, they're usually a small collection of people. I'm guessing they want to keep it small, because more mouths to feed, more money to divvy out on the wins, but somewhat small group of people. Sometimes you have an organization that actually splits the duties, like you know. One guy talks with the partners, one guy does the betting, one monitors the accounts, one does the accounting, whatever it may be. But these syndicates, they are the account gatherers. They reach out to people like me and they're saying, hey, please give us accounts. These syndicates, these betting groups again, whatever you want to call them they're going to ask for your username, they're going to ask for your password. They want to know where you're from so they can use an IP address that is from that area. They're going to ask how you want to split the account 50-50. Do you want a free roll? And then they're going to look at like, hey, how much is an okay amount possibly to win on this account? Not all groups ask that, because some groups are just going to try and churn and burn, win, win, win, win. And if they burn the account out, they burn the account out. But a lot of groups are kind of moving towards hey, how much is okay to win? How much is okay to keep pushing every week? 

26:34
That's what I think of a syndicate, a group that is betting into accounts. They're collecting accounts from general public, from people like you and I. Sometimes they're doing the betting themselves. Sometimes they're actually reaching out to originators and saying, hey, can you make bets into these accounts? Guys, just think about it realistically. This small group of this syndicate maybe it's four or five people there's no way they know all the sports, all the lines, all the time. What's the best way to do it? Well, let's collect people that do know how to originate. They do know how to make their own lines. They do know how to figure out the market. Let's let them bet into the accounts themselves, and then we'll just take advantage. So I wrote in the article when I go 50-50 in a syndicate, 50% of their winnings is actually usually going to somebody else on top of that, so they're not getting the full 50 that I give them. They're actually paying for their originators. They're paying for the people that are making them money through their own lines. 

27:29 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, that's well said, very noticeable as well, as someone at one point in life who gave out accounts as well to other people still do now for accounts that I don't bet into. You'll often see play overlap in the accounts that you give out to completely separate people. I'll give out to somebody that's europe-based, I'll give out to somebody that's in california, and then I'll review the play history and you'll see how much is overlapping in between those, because they're likely now going and turning around and finding the same originator to bet into those accounts as well. So just interesting how it's all interconnected. Uh, like that overall, um, managing the process of this or like the full thing, though you're the guy that has to meet with the bookie and collect from the bookie and then pay out, whether that's in crypto or cash or whatever, but I assume that some of those interactions must be not fun ones to have. 

28:24 - Ferris (Guest)
Let's put it that way Sure, and it's weird because most of the time why you're handing off account in the first place is you were a losing better and you want to win money. The bookie who's been your best friend, as you paid them and paid them and they bought cars, I'm sure, and they paid for their kid's college they loved you. And then, all of a sudden, you are starting to win consistently. Week after week, you're winning money. Um, the some people, some account gatherers I've heard of they like to groom the account, and I agree with it to an extent. And what I mean by grooming the account? An account that they've been losing in many, many, many weeks years, whatever. Um, maybe their bet amounts were only like 50 bucks, 100 bucks. When you pass off your account to a syndicate, they don't want to bet 50 bucks, they don't want to bet $100. They want to bet a lot more than that, closer to the max bet on the account, which might be 300, might be 500, something like that. So I'm of the opinion yes, grooming the account is good to a point. Maybe you start putting in bets for larger amounts so that when you pass the account off to a syndicate, it doesn't look so weird. It doesn't look so suspicious. You were a $50 better last week, now you're a $400 better. That doesn't add up. Sure, it might look degenerate. For a while. It might look like you're just kind of chased all your previous losses, but after a while they're going to catch on. Oh shoot, this guy figured out what he's doing and he's betting a lot more money. So grooming the account is something that you might do with a bookie before and then maintaining that relationship as it goes. 

29:50
I'm kind of OCD guys. I take meticulous notes on what has worked and what has not and I used to think that there was like this pathway you could take of. Like this will keep the account open for longer If I only play certain markets in certain amounts. To an extent, yes, but I've lost. I don't know. I don't mind being open or anything. I've lost 52 accounts in the last year. Okay, gathered and lost 52 accounts, pph accounts in around. Just this is purely numbers. I'm looking at $5,000. About winning $5,000, the bookie says I don't care who you are, I don't care that. We used to have a great relationship, you are done. I'm not letting you win any more money off of me. I don't care that at one point in your betting career you were down 20 grand. You're now up on me lifetime and I'm done with it. Managing that relationship is tough because again you go from probably a losing better to a winning better somewhat quickly, almost overnight in some instances. 

30:45 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So what do those conversations look like? Like, do you get accusations beforehand of like hey, what's going on here? Um, I, I there. There's times where I hand bet an account, for example. So, uh, just so, people who know hand bet is typically how the average person would bet. They're just going to go to the actual sports book, they're going to type in the wager amount and click it. Um, you could bought an account, which is different, where it's just basically a bot is automatically going to play whatever you want to play. 

31:14
But I've had times before where I'd be hand betting an account and winning and the bookie would come to me and they'd be like, oh, we got it. You know, the agent would say we got suspected bot alert or on this or whatever, trying to like, feel me out in, in a sense, to see whether or not I was doing something that was not right or you know sharper, or so on and so forth. So what are those conversations like? Is it? Do you tend to just typically be cut off immediately, like someone says that's it, here's your money, we're done. Or not even here's your money, we're done when you go to pick up. 

31:44 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
You ever go, log in and get the old message. 

31:47 - Ferris (Guest)
Call customer service. 

31:49 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Call customer service. It's just call customer service. 

31:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah. 

31:55 - Ferris (Guest)
Yeah, the relationship between you, the account gatherer and the bookie is tough. I've seen it every which way. I've always been confused. I have friends that will, even before they pass their accounts off. They're like texting with the bookie each week as if they're friends, like they're sweating games together. It's like dude, you're not sweating the game with him. He wants you to lose and you want to win. There is no way that you guys are on the same side. It's just not going to happen. So some of the some of my friends will pass off the accounts and they're like winning and they're trying to like maintain that relationship with a bookie. Like, hey, I guess I'm getting kind of lucky. You're not getting lucky. You sound stupid. You're actually bringing attention to your account. 

32:34
Okay, my, my goal has always been I get an account from a bookie. I'm polite, I pay on time every single monday morning or even sunday night, if they'll allow it. I try not to really talk with them very much because I don't think that can go any way. But but south um, the bookie and you don't get. You are on opposite sides. They are not your friend. They're not hoping you win, they want to take your money. 

32:53
This game is. It's not hard. I feel like we we add all these parameters and guys. The name of the game is I make a bet, it wins, it loses or it pushes. In the end of the week I'm either up money or I'm down money. The bookie pays me or I pay the bookie. The relationship has to be what you feel comfortable with. If you think talking with them, if they're chatterbox and you think talking with them is going to lead to a longer account, sure, I know that you guys have people in the past, guests that you've had that have this gift. They can talk with their bookies and they can win money off of them and somehow they're still best friends. I've never had that issue. My, my bookies text me F you. Here's your money. I don't ever want to talk with you again. 

33:32 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, lose my number. That's what. I've gotten that one a few times before. Yeah. 

33:36 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, they're just like the. It's done, Leave it so. Um, fair enough. Obviously, there's other strategies. I was going to ask have you ever tried to, you know, act square on purpose in front of the bookie, or you know what I mean To ask him dumb questions that you know the answer to? 

33:52 - Ferris (Guest)
Yep, I uh, I've tried texting like a college student. I've tried texting Like I'm a very buttoned up professional. I've tried to take on different. I hate that. It's like you're an actor and I'm terrible at acting. 

34:02
Um, kind of going back to what's the funniest text you've sent, then I just sent I've sent one time like a paragraph, like a text this long no periods, no grant, like just like no grammar whatsoever, Just like one long train train of thought like hey, I'm a big better, I like to bet high volume. I bet like every sport I love. When there's four sports going on, it's just the best you know. Just going on and on like that and you in that, honestly, for the most part you get your credit and increased, and what I mean is like you have like a 3k credit and that sometimes gets you up to like five or six. 

34:31
Um, but when you pass off these accounts kind of going back to an original point, you don't know how it's going to work. Like you know the relationship with your bookie but your syndicate, your betting group that you're passing off the account to, doesn't, so it's. It becomes a tough like cat and mouse game of like sometimes you're, you have to like talk with your group about. Hey, I know this person best. I know how to talk with them. Right now they're upset with us winning a lot of money last week. Maybe we kind of scale back a little bit this week, Okay. Um, the relationships. I don't think there's any perfect way to go about it. Again, we always want a-fits-all answer in the space, but your relationship with your bookie is is 100% what you your gut tells you each week agreed. 

35:11 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Uh, just a disclaimer for everyone out there. This is by no means suggesting that you need to enter betting partnerships to be successful in betting or anything like that. There's lots of ways to be successful in betting. Also, just sharing a personal story which you brought to mind with the credit limit increase. I think if you do and ever end up working with a betting group in any capacity, you want to be part of that. That's the way you want to win. 

35:34
It's very, very, very, very important to be specific with details and understand what you are getting into. So one example is I once handed over an account to someone where I did not know what the actual credit limit in the account was, and I was in my early twenties, did not have a lot of money, the credit limit on that account was 250K and that weekend, for college football and NFL, it was maxed and I was sharing risk on that account. So imagine, being a 22 year old, that you're basically now have 125 K in play because I'm an idiot and I didn't really ask the right questions beforehand. So just be very, very careful about that stuff, and I just want that to be a disclaimer for anyone out there. Obviously, you got to know. Do your due diligence, know what you're getting into. Did you win? I didn't lose enough for it to be a memorable. I don't even remember, but it wasn't a big win or a big loss because it was forgotten. But I clearly remember logging into that account and I was like, oh my God, what am I going to do? What is this? I'm going to have to like packing my suitcase, basically like I'm going to have to like packing my suitcase, basically Like I'm going to have to be out of town if this loses. 

36:48
Right, the old suitcase bets yeah, like when Greece won the Euros in sorry, I'm going on a tangent, but it was like 2004 or whatever when Greece beat Portugal in the Euros. Every single Greek in Toronto, on like the Danforth, bet Greece to win the Euros at like an absurd price because Greece was horrible at soccer. It was like 100 to one, 200 to one, and they all won these bets. All the bookies in Toronto were gone, like they called it like the suitcase bets. Right, it was like they packed their suitcases as soon as Greece won that finals. They were flying somewhere else. They were flying to Greece. Wouldn't have been that hard to track them down, but, yes, their final degrees wouldn't have been that hard to track them down. 

37:31
But, yes, just want to make it very clear to people out there, there's a lot of things you can gather from this conversation. At the end of the day, do your due diligence on anything? I'm just curious. So you write an article about betting partnerships. The first thing that you put in that article is hey, I did a google search about betting partnerships and, like, you're not going to find anything about this, why do you think that betting partnerships are not discussed at all in the in the space? Because with the emergence of sports betting now and it becoming more and more mainstream, you'd figure we'd start to see stuff on these topics. But we don't. This is just like it doesn't exist. Your art, your article, is a unicorn article, as I call it, just doesn't doesn't exist. So why do you think that we don't see? 

38:11 - Ferris (Guest)
more content around this type of stuff in the betting space? Yeah, it's, it's a great question is? It's why I wrote the article is in it. You guys are. You're my favorite pod, you're the best sports betting podcast out there. I know you guys, it's weird to hear those compliments, but you are, um, and even you guys don't really touch on the take that take that and spanky, yeah, it don't. 

38:29
You guys are the best you and even you guys, in your both pros. I know you're both successful, unless you've just completely been living the biggest lies ever, but you're, you're successful. And you don't really talk about the PPH world. You don't talk about this paper headspace. You don't talk about betting partnerships, and I've always wondered why I don't hear you talk about the PPH world. You don't talk about this paper headspace. You don't talk about betting partnerships and I've always wondered why I don't hear you talk about it. I don't hear Rufus talk about it. 

38:50
Spanky obviously does, because that's how he's built his entire empire essentially is is betting partnerships and I think they're not talking about, I would guess, a lot of people. Your everyday person thinks it's illegal to bet into a local. I would guess that's at the forefront of it is. People don't want to talk about it because they think they're doing something wrong and obviously people aren't in a big hurry to talk about what they're doing wrong. It's not the case. Betting into a local is not illegal Okay, we've already discussed the other side of that but betting into them is not illegal. It's okay to talk about All right and the betting partnerships. It only works with paperheads. Again, I think I mentioned this in the article. 

39:31
But a lot of people are still relying on their legal outs, their draft kings, their fan duels or even if they go offshore, they're relying on Bovada or BetOnline. These places you can't enter into a partnership agreement with. I want to make that also very clear. These places have geo-complied. Their technology is too good. The technology catches you If someone else is logging into your account. Sometimes they'll flag. If brothers in the same house were making bets, they'll flag them as logging into each other's accounts. Their technology is too good. You can't pass off an offshore account. You can't pass off a DraftKings account. I'm sure bettors are working on getting around that. I'm sure they're in the works right now, but for the most part this can't happen with those and with so many people reliant on those types of betting situations. They can't pass off the account. So unless, like we started this conversation with, unless you've lucked your way into a PPH with a bookie that's given you a decent credit limit that the betting syndicate can actually use, you can't pass off the account. 

40:26 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Right For full transparency purposes. Obviously, myself and Johnny are co-owners of Betstamp. We deal with mostly regulated books and we don't talk about the PPH world a whole lot, because the reality is I would highly advise and I'm saying this with full transparency, it's not because of business or whatever but I'd highly advise people to bet into regulated books as much as humanly possible. There's lots of options out there and we're gonna get into getting stiffed, but it's one way to make sure or ensure that you are getting paid period, plain and simple. Speaking of stiffs. 

40:59 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
If you're looking for a place that won't stiff you. This podcast is presented by Pinnacle Sportsbook. It is the world's sharpest sportsbook. It's where the professionals play. Sign up today. Not available in the USA. 

41:11 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
With your betting partnerships. Curious, on just a human level do you maintain personal relationships with these people? Do you just deal with them over Telegram or Signal or WhatsApp, or do you actually have friendships now with the people that you've worked with in the betting space? I wouldn't say friendships. 

41:28 - Ferris (Guest)
We're friendly. The most hilarious part I think about this like once a day seriously is I don't know what they look like. I'm in these betting. I talk with these people daily. I don't even know what they look like. I've never been to a bet bash. I've never flown out to meet them. They're located all over the country. I'm talking with people that are winning me significant sums of money I'm originating for and I have no clue what they look like. It's hilarious, it's a weird dynamic and it's something I find really fascinating about the space is that we can all. As long as we have a common goal, it doesn't matter. The rest of the details don't matter. We're all just trying to win money. We're all trying to get better at sports betting. Who cares where they're from? Who cares what they look like? Who cares what they do? As far as friendships go, I definitely have met people that like, like I kind of alluded to earlier. I have a. I have a. One of my partners is from Seattle, washington. Shout out, robert, robert, is is awesome. 

42:30
I've spoken with him on zoom three times in my life and we've won lots and lots of money together. It's awesome, it's a great way to go Billions and billions of dollars, no, but we've done really well together and it's just because we bonded over sports betting. Sports betting is awesome. It should be fun, it should be unique, it should be interesting to you, it should motivate you and, with that said, I would love to get to know these people. I would love to go to a bet bash. It's just never worked out for me. I love to just fly out to where they're from and like hang out with them for a weekend, drink beers and watch sports. I mean it would be a great hang. Yeah, I mean, it's a weird dynamic. 

43:01 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Last thing, we'll touch on with betting partnerships and then we'll move on here. In the article you wrote over at the hammer, you discussed three personal experiences with specific betting groups. Um, curious, what made you move on from one to another, like what was it about a specific group where you're like this is not for me, or was that actually just all overlap, where you were working with them at the same time? 

43:25 - Ferris (Guest)
Yeah, and to kind of give some context, there's no risk. So when you get an account, you can pass it off to a group and, rob, you alluded to this earlier. Sometimes you'll pass an account off to multiple groups. Maybe it has a big credit limit. If you want to get diverse action in there, you want to see some hockey, you want to see some basketball, you want to see some baseball, whatever, you can pass the account off to whoever you would like. Now accounting becomes super difficult in those situations. You hope that the betting group has a really good accounting department. Some do, some don't, but you can pass the account off to whoever you would like. So there is overlap in some instances. For the most part, just my personal preference. 

43:58
When I pass off accounts, I've really liked keeping them all to one group. I want to communicate with one group. I don't want to figure out who placed what, because, to take this one step further and to make it even more confusing, sometimes the groups you pass the account off to are actually passing it off to somebody else on their end. I've had that situation too, where it's like they don't technically know every bet that got put in the account. Sometimes they're a little unsure if it was them or not, because they pass it off to somebody too, because that's how they network themselves. That's how they get along with other betting groups. 

44:29
My personal experience I worked with three different groups. The first one, super nice, they won money. It just wasn't. I'm detail oriented. I like communication. I like things done as I want them done. I know I want to be able to anticipate what's coming. I wasn't getting that from them Again. I would work with them again, as I mentioned in the article, but it wasn't for me at that point I was ready to move fast and they weren't moving super fast for me into different styles. 

45:05
When you're passing off accounts, when you're betting partnerships, you will find groups that are easygoing. They won't bet the max amount on every single bet. They won't hit openers. This group was the exact opposite. They max bet the second, a line posted on a PPH. They hit it for the max bet $1,000, $2,000. They knew when these bets, they knew when the lines were coming out and they would max it out. 

45:26
And I was like guys I get we churn and burn these accounts, but you've got to at least like do something like this is not good, like, don't get me wrong. I love winning money. That's what we're doing this for. But this is just going to get me kicked immediately. Okay, talk about relationships with bookies. That's when you get the text like, how are you getting these lines so fast? I don't know, I guess I'm just. I'm really I'm getting better at this, I don't know. 

45:50
So eventually I was just that wore thin on me. They won, they would win, and when you do that, you win big and you lose big. Those accounts would win big and they would lose big. And I was kind of hoping also for a little bit more steady. And finally I made it to my third group. This was a group kind of similar to the first, where I was originating for them and I also knew that they collected accounts and I liked their style. 

46:14
Just like anything in life, you have to find what works for you. They don't really max bet. They vary their bet timing. They bet on a lot of different things. Sometimes it looks like degenerate action, sometimes it looks like pro action. I think it's disguised pretty well for the most part, and their overall demeanor, the way they communicate with you, is very much for me. They're on top of their stuff. They get things out to me when I need them and I just want to respond sometimes If I have a question. I'm not asking you to tell me your entire betting operation, but I have a question sometimes that I want to know they'll respond to me and I like that. 

46:43 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Nice Sounds like you've. I mean, that's great. There's three different groups and three different styles I've worked with all very similar across the board. So all right, I want to talk about getting stiffed in the space For those that don't. 99% of you listening know about getting stiffed For those that don't, it's essentially when someone doesn't pay you out, take off. Some cases they're upfront about it and they're like I'm not paying you. Some cases you're going to get the old delivered message and never read type of situation. So, ferris, in your personal experience, what runs the highest risk of getting stiffed in the space? 

47:22 - Ferris (Guest)
Completely PPH world. You are not getting getting stiff from a legal book. There's too many legalities. There's too many regulations. If you make a bet with a legal sports book, there's a 99.9% chance you are getting paid that money. Yes, your account might be closed down. Yes, your bet limits may be slashed afterwards and, yes, these companies sometimes have a hard time interpreting their own rules, which is hilarious. But you're getting paid. You're getting paid, without a doubt. 

47:46
Where it gets the middle ground, I'll call it is offshores bookmaker BetOnline, bovada, whatever. If they think that they've been wronged, if you took advantage of a software glitch or if you took advantage of something a bad line, if they would want to they can decide we're not paying you this money. Now, that's not good for the reputations and these offshores rely almost entirely on reputation. There's ratings that they get them. I feel as a person. I think these rating services have been somewhat compromised, it feels like in recent years, but, with that said, they do rely on reputation. If you do make some posts about them, it can look bad for them. So, most of the time, the offshores are going to pay you out. Most of the time you are, you are going to get stiffed when it comes to a PPH, a local bookie is going to have it. Either they took on more action they could handle, or they have the money and they're just sick of giving you the money. They're going to stiff you at some point. It's a matter of when, not if. 

48:40 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Right. Specific bet types that you notice that are more likely to get stiff. Specific sports timing of bets. Basically, the action in the account. Has there been some sort of correlation between the action and your ability to collect money? 

48:55 - Ferris (Guest)
Yeah, and let's get into this. Bookies are dumb, they're dumb people. 

48:58 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Okay, I'm not going to sugarcoat it, we're generalizing. There's probably some out there, but yes. 

49:03 - Ferris (Guest)
I get it. I'm speaking to the masses here. Bookies are dumb people. Their IQ level is low. They know two things I take in bets and I take in money. That's all they know. 

49:12
Okay, the ones that are on the more intelligent side of the spectrum they know that if you bet early in the week, doesn't matter what market it is. If you bet early in the week and you're beating the closing line, I'll say this If they identify that you're beating the closing line, you're probably kicked real fast. Now the smarter ones are also more willing to not stiff you. They're probably going to pay you your money, but they're going to catch on to your CLV and they're going to catch on to your timing of bets a lot sooner. The dumb ones, which is the majority of them they don't notice anything. All they look at is at the end of the week here's how much money I won and here's how much money I lost. I got to pay out. That's all they're looking for. 

49:49
Um, something that will even catch the bookies that don't really know what they're doing. The things that will catch their eye FCS football it's a I think Spanky tweeted about this a couple of weekends ago. Who bets FCS football degenerates that aren't going to pay the bookie, or pros that are going to take all the bookies money. I don't think there's any in between First half action, second half action not as bad looking I guess, but I think I've been flagged a few times for halftime actions. What looks really degenerate and I like is quarter bets that never look sharp for some reason because it's like some guys rolling the dice on a quarter, but those can be some of the sharpest action you're going to see. Anything small, anything small market a dumb or a smart bookie is going to catch on to. 

50:33 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I think it depends on the quantity of the bets as well, like if I was a bookie and I logged. You know, I'm checking an account and I see that they have a first quarter bet in like 20 college football games on that day. I'm probably more likely or more inclined to believe that that's sharper action than if somebody just puts in one or two and mixes it in with a bunch of full game bets. Personally, I don't know. I don't have the answers to this. 

51:02 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I bunch of full game bets personally, I don't know, I don't have the answers to this, I'm just speaking from if I was monitoring an account. 

51:05
So, by the way, it's the game has changed a lot. Um, the pph world was typically like, hey, a lot of straight bets and parlays. If you go look into some kids fanduel account right now and just look through all his bets, they're gonna be all player props, first touchdown, same game parlay, 16 parlay. They're not going to be money straights, yep, and like it actually is a little concerning because, like, most people now are actually not playing straights, like the biggest square bettors, like the big, big guys who've been betting for a while, are still used to that, but for the most part, um, there's not not many anymore well, do you remember about a year ago when barstool released like their hold figures for like one of the quarters and it it was absurdly high, where everybody was coming out and being like, no, these figures are wrong they're exaggerating or whatever, and it's like, no, they're probably right, because the vast majority of this player base is just parlaying everything and consistently losing. 

51:54 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So I I agree with that. I think it's um, it's very much changing. I just wonder if on the pph front, it is all that much. You know what I'm saying? 

52:03 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
well, pretty much like if you're a rec, better. Right now, what are you actually betting on? You're probably betting nfl because you're a fan of the sport and probably like, if you're in toronto, for example, then you might toss some bets on like leaf games, raps game, jays game, stuff like that, right. But if you're, if you end up and maybe you're in Toronto, for example, then you might toss some bets on like Leaf games, raps game, jays game, stuff like that, right. But if you're, if you end up and maybe you're a big college football fan and every Saturday you put in college, but if you're just starting to bet on every single thing, like it is a little concerning Of course you know what's crazy about that? 

52:31 - Ferris (Guest)
that Barstool thing too is. 

52:31 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I'm a Barstool regular dude, but I've had a beer with big cat before. He's a great dude Exactly he's. 

52:37 - Ferris (Guest)
America's best friend, um Portnoy, tweeted out that hold, it was like 27% or something absurd like that, and he wanted to say how well Penn was doing, cause he's you know, he pumps Penn stock. He didn't realize what he was putting out was like this is terrible. This is terrible for your customers. This is terrible for the longevity of Barstool sportsbook. Have you ever noticed? He's never done that, ever again I have. 

52:59 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I I hadn't thought of that, but now I have. I have not seen barstool figures being promoted by uh, portnoy or big cat in a long time, now that I think about it and to be like big cat, came out and said hey, this isn't, this isn't gonna be like this forever. 

53:12 - Ferris (Guest)
I bet he's gonna come down where we had. I think he was replying to individual tweets saying, hey, we had a, we had a good month, or whatever. He knew it looked terrible for their betters. 

53:20 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Portnoy no clue, right he did call joey kanisha card counter as well. 

53:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Oh, one of the greatest moments in kanisha's life his an entire lot if, if you have a twitter by a mount rushmore of kanisha's. Like favorite life events, that has to be on it was funny because they did. 

53:36 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
They just said so, what about that? That, that guy from michigan that, and he called the out on twitter it is such a great clip. 

53:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It is actually hilarious, though we're going on a tangent here, but it, um, it is hilarious that joey knish got portnoy to respond to him like. He triggered portnoy enough that they actually had to talk about it like they, even though it was a minute long clip, no, but like they put it up on the tv as like that? 

54:06 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
uh, it was. It was a topic on the guy's agenda, like he put it on there. 

54:10 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
When you think about knish's like life achievements. Obviously he got the portnoy thing he got um charles bark charles on on nba, on tnt, to say what did he get him so, so basic. It was also in his twitter bio, so what? 

54:24 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
what happened with that one was there was a prop, uh, for will somebody say drake? At the halftime, during, like the halftime show, and then, uh, they were put. Basically, they're like the betters wanted charles, like the betters won, and they put up a thing and it was joey knish. He said somebody say drake and they put it up on there. And then, uh, charles barkley said he's like drake, and then they're like, wow, the betters just won. And then he was like I'm one of the betters so good, oh man uh so good one is his twitter header, the picture of the picture of the tweet. 

54:57
Yeah, that was when I actually first started following uh hilarious there was around that time. That was very, very funny that was when he was grinding out that rent money yes, big time that's when spanky used to. 

55:09 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You know, go at him what. Twice a week for having a day job maybe, maybe even more um which, by the way, I have no issue, no issues with whatsoever umventative measures for stiffing, especially for large amounts. Is there any advice you can give to people to reduce the risk that they're going to be stiffed by a? 

55:29 - Ferris (Guest)
bookie, the side of the you and your bedding group, like you talked about earlier. Figure it out in advance. I think most bedding groups are willing to work with you on a stiff. But if it does happen, don't wait until the time comes to figure out, okay, who's on the hook for what. If it's truly 50-50 and you got stiffed one week, okay, you're going to reach out to your bedding group and say, hey, this group stiffed me. What are we going to do about it? If you have a good working relationship with them, okay. This is where it gets a little bit more nuanced. 

55:58
There's been times where I've gotten stiff and I just didn't say anything because, honestly, I want to stay in the good graces of my betting partnership. I want them to like me. I want them to continue giving me good bets. I want them to continue working with me on payments. If it's not a substantial amount of money, I'm probably not going to say very much. Okay so, but before I go in I know that's a risk I'm running on my end trying to not get sick from a bookie I think if you're in, if you keep the relationship professional, if you treat each other with respect and you're not like when you have a big week you're not texting. I'm like, hey, can't wait to meet up to pay me all my money. Keeping it professional goes a long way. Pay me all my money. Keeping it professional goes a long way. 

56:41
I'm trying to think if there's been any pattern of what has or hasn't worked. I think it just gets to a point where the bookie it might be as simple as like they're having a bad week, they lost a lot of money and they're in a bad mood and they want to stiff you. I think some of them keep long-term wins and long-term losses, but a lot of them, I think, they just got to a point where they they had a bad week and they don't want to pay you the money. Um, when that happens, it's super frustrating, incredibly frustrating. Um, I've tried every which way to stop it from happening, but, guys, at the end of the day, it's it's money, and money makes people make terrible decisions and this is what ends up happening. 

57:13 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Do you ever get the vibe that it's coming Like? You're up a lot on Monday, tuesday, wednesday in an account and you'll reach out to your betting partners and say, hey, let's stop betting this account, because there's a chance that this might be coming. 

57:24 - Ferris (Guest)
Yeah, I've never get the feeling, but I think we put a lot of safeguards in place so that we actually can't run up tabs. We have safeguards on our end that says, hey, if we're having a good week it's probably going to stop, bets are going to stop rolling in and I would recommend those for anybody out there is. Make sure that you've made it very clear what you feel comfortable with taking from a book. If you're dealing with what you believe to be a younger don't deal with college bookies, by the way but if it's a younger bookie, probably don't run up a big tab, even if they have a real job and everything. You think they're good for the money and they've paid out big before. Previous payments do not equal future payments, that is for damn sure. 

58:02 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Agreed Um. Walk us through sometimes when you you have been stiffed in the past, and then how you approach those situations Like what, what actions can you possibly take to collect your money, or do you just consider it a lost cause at that point? 

58:18 - Ferris (Guest)
yeah, it's not a lost cause. I am what my worst quality as a human is I'm vindictive. I I love a good grudge. 

58:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I feel like you guys could probably appreciate that, but I love it but I agree with you 100% here, because I know, and you're probably like this ferris if I lose money I'm always going to pay it. I am never going to just run and stiff some guy for an amount owed, so you just expect the same in return, and when that does not happen, I get spiteful when, when that doesn't happen, so I I'm in the same boat but I mean that's the issue is, no matter what the amount, it feels like absolute garbage to get stiff any of money, even if it's like $200. 

58:57 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
It feels so much worse To have Like. Basically, most people would be like, nah, you wouldn't actually, and maybe I wouldn't, but I would rather lose a $500 bet Than get stiffed $300. Like it, I would feel. You know, mentally it would be not a big. I'd be like Like whatever, I don't have to think about this. Yeah, I lost a bet right, even though it's $200 more. Getting stiffed is the worst. It just feels like shit. 

59:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I just hate the notion of someone not paying you and like when you could like if you don't have the money, then just you know, I can't pay you this 2,000 this week. I'll pay you 200 bucks a week for the next 10 weeks, something like anything or just like not responding to that, like that is just treating another human being like they're garbage, essentially. 

59:38 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
What do you respect more, ferris? Do you respect the two situations? Number one no response, complete ghost. Or number two, like F you, I'm not paying you. 

59:49 - Ferris (Guest)
Oh, I respect the F you, I'm not paying you. Without a doubt, the ghosting. No response. What are you? Seven years old? What are you doing? We're adults. We've been trading money for months. Do me the favor and tell me I'm pissed that you won. I think that you're sharp. You told me you weren't sharp, which is also hilarious, because what do they want betting into them? Tell me you don't want to pay me the money and at least maybe we can talk through it. Getting back to you talked you talked about like what, what have you done? I've I've heard lots of methods. I've seen great stuff. I've seen stuff that I would never do. 

01:00:24
Before we get into this, I want to say, like you have to do what you're comfortable with. Okay, the article that's coming out for the hammer. One of the first things I mentioned is take stock of your personal situation. Okay, most of us have jobs, most of us are professionals doing something where we want to be a respected peer of coworkers and we're in front of customers and whatever. If this causes, and if anything you do is going to cause, blowback in the office or just your personal life in general, probably don't do it, okay. So don't do anything that you're not comfortable with, but things that I have heard that have been effective. 

01:00:57
A lot of these bookies, believe it or not, this is not their sole source of income. They have a regular job where they're a regular person, which is really weird, because when they're stiffing you, they're acting like an asshole. I assume they're not like that all the time, but they're stiffing you. They have a job. Call them up at work. Call up their secretary at work. Hey, how's it going, johnny? Sorry, johnny, I don't mean to pick on you, no, no, you're good. 

01:01:21
How's it going, johnny? Be very pleasant. Hey, I was just calling because it looks like you blocked my number and you owe me for last week and I was just hoping maybe we could get that settled up. They respond very quickly to that because for some reason they don't want to talk about their illegal side booking business while they're at their professional workplace. 

01:01:42
Yes, another way I've heard very I've never done this and I've heard of this but maybe creating a website, creating a website where you highlight the greatness of this individual, maybe their financial acumen where they've taken in payments from other betters, maybe you highlight some of their accomplishments in the workplace. Maybe I don't know if I agree with the personal information stuff, but maybe throughout their name, you never know. And then, third, probably the I don't know least effective but like network throw out a message and again one of those slacks of those discords and say, hey, I got stiffed by so-and-so, your account had a prefix. All these PPH accounts we know have a prefix of, like a certain, a letter in numbers. My prefix was JK and this that was my prefix. Can anybody help me out? Betters hate being stiffed and a lot of bettors hate other bettors, but what we really hate are the people that are stiffing others so many people that actually don't really like working together. 

01:02:42 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
They will work together to help a stiff get resolved how do you feel about those with big followings that that just put other people on blast with all the personal information on twitter and things? Love it, yeah love it it's. 

01:02:56 - Ferris (Guest)
Johnny said it's so unfair. It hurts it really does. I call it what it is. It hurts, guys, especially when you're down lifetime. That's the worst is when you're down lifetime and account and then they're choosing to stiff you. Hopefully, when you get stiffed you're up on the bookie lifetime at least to make it feel a little bit better, but it doesn't. It still hurts. Um, we want we want a fair game. We didn't know the outcome of a game before it happened. Sharp bettors are doing their best. Yes, they have good information. Yes, they're winners over time, but they did not have the outcome. There was nothing unfair about what was happening. So the bookie choosing to withhold the money. They've decided that you made a fair bet, but they're going to take an unfair action and that's really what it comes down to. I love when they get put on blast. I love when Kanish went after that. I don't know the hockey player stuff. I didn't really see. I was really upset. There was no resolve to that situation, but I really wanted to know the ending. But yeah. 

01:03:47 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I believe the OHL did an investigation and concluded that there was nothing that was like going on there. 

01:03:55 - Ferris (Guest)
Yeah, which seems to me like it was a bad investigation. Definitely I don't want to. I don't. 

01:04:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't I have. I'm privy to a lot of the details, but for legal purposes I'd rather just not not share those. 

01:04:07 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Sure thing, it is what it is. I there was that, that, uh, that math teacher. Yeah, do you know what I'm talking about, ferris? 

01:04:18
I do he was from texas I think I believe it, and like he basically was even given like accounts to students and stuff, and then they, uh, they got him on that. So that was uh, you know, listen, you be a shit person. It's gonna come back and and at the end of the day, like if you owe someone money, you, you really like listen, I get it, though Some people are not in the situation to be able to pay right right away, and cash flows is a real thing, especially if you, if you take a bookie for a big week and it ended up being that just so happened that week, like five of his players took him for a big week. Like there has to be some sort of like understanding amongst the players of like hey, all right, it was a big week, I can't actually pay. I don't have all the money to pay out this week, otherwise I'm going to be in a tough spot. So we got to work something out here. Like I'm sorry, but like can we do? I got like listen, I can't get it all to you now. I'll try to get you some later this week. I'll get you some, I'm gonna, it's gonna get paid. 

01:05:13
That, although it also is unprofessional, is going to happen in the industry. Because, let's face it again, you mentioned like a lot of these bookies like are they the best like cashflow managers? So they're like their personal finances probably not. So it's definitely possible that some of them get stuck. Um, we also have to realize like there's a lot of excuses that comes into it. So like they might have a guy that's taken a portion of the action and then he doesn't want to pay and now it's like well, if I want to pay this guy now I got to pay out of pocket on this other share. So like I can only give that. We have to be understanding on some stuff as well. But for the most part, anyone that just goes like or even just says no, I'm not paying you. 

01:05:58 - Ferris (Guest)
You cheated me or whatever. It's kind of bullshit, I agree. I agree, and we should probably differentiate between their slow pays and their stiffs. A slow pay is someone who owes you maybe $2,000, like you said and they're going to give you 200 bucks for 10 weeks. That's a slow pay. They want to pay you. They don't have the money right now. A stiff is straight up I'm just not paying you the money. 

01:06:10 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Right, yeah, but what I'm unprofessional and oftentimes does lead to a stiff. Yes, a slow pay almost always becomes a stiff if you win long enough. So you want to just avoid that. Get the portion of the money you can and then cut it off. Um, but yeah, the absolute it's, it's brutal. This is why, again, like I personally would not ever recommend taking a pph account and dealing with this. 

01:06:33
Um, I would much prefer if you're in a legal betting state there's just so many books that you could play at nowadays where you know, yes, you may get limited stuff like that, but at the end of the day, like you are relatively sure that you're going to be getting your money from a fan duel, right, and you're not going to end up getting, you're not going to end up hitting a parlay for something and then losing Another thing, fer. 

01:06:53
Then losing another thing ferris mentioned, like not running up the accounts too much, like people don't really realize but if you're a hundred dollar, better, you're betting into like a college bookie and he's got a sheet where he's got only hundred dollar bettors and you hit like a six team or a 20 team parlay for 10 bucks that pays out like 10 grand. Like you can't be betting that there because the chances are you're not going to get that money. So anything that has a payout, call it of above, I would even go maybe a little bit higher, but anything ever that has a payout like a single event, payout of more than like 25 grand, you would have to play that in a reputable spot agreed. 

01:07:29 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Um, I think that's just common sense. Like to avoid the the possible of possibility of stiff. Um, what are some of the best excuses you've ever heard, ferris, for not being? 

01:07:39 - Ferris (Guest)
paid. They're always going to go to their other players' loss and they haven't paid them. 

01:07:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That's the most common one. I think, that it's just like I'm waiting on somebody else to give me this money. It's not fair that I have to be out of pocket to pay you when I'm getting stiff. 

01:07:55 - Ferris (Guest)
Your performance. Get it straight your performance has nothing to do with their other players. Absolutely nothing. Yeah, um, since inflation inflation like three months ago was awesome, um, as if inflation just overnight was just like Nope, the, the money you want is gone because of inflation. It's like I'm not sure you know what inflation is, dude, like I'm not sure you could describe what inflation actually means. 

01:08:17
I've had some people. It feels like they get like incredibly crazy. It's like they create a short story in their mind. It's like the book you wrote up to my boy's house. He wrote up with his guys. He I think they had guns on them they banged on the door, they took all the money and, yeah, man, we're just, we're just out of luck. And it's like you took so long, like if you would have just worked on finding ways to give me the money instead of creating that whole story, we would. It would be a lot easier. There's always a family issue. I've never encountered a bookie who didn't have a family issue pop up on a week that I won. I've never seen a family issue pop up on a week that I lost. 

01:09:07 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, the timing of those are very convenient. You, johnny, you've had any crazy excuses. I've had two. One was a guy that I was only dealing with online, so this is a kind of my own fault. At first, anyways, just collected a book from somebody had paid out before though, and I'm, you know, I was kind of testing the waters with him for a long time and then had a week where he's just like a couple of days go by not really responding to messages. 

01:09:24
Then he just sends me a message of like a house that is just like destroyed and I'm like, hey, bud, like what's going on here, whatever? He's like tornado came through the neighborhood, like we're in shambles right now, like whatever. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry to hear that, or whatever, and I know where this guy's located. So I'm like looking up if there's been tornadoes in the area and like there have. But then I also google, google photoed like house hit by tornado, something like that. It was literally one of the first pictures. Like he just took a google photo from the internet and sent it to me and claimed that he, his house, got hit by a tornado, that was his house imagine, though, what? 

01:10:05
no, it's like an old picture, like really old. I checked the date on it so that was one. And then someone also sent me a picture, just a picture of like what looks like them attached to an ivy in a hospital bed with a bracelet on, but they didn't even have the the common sense. I could see that the name on the bracelet and the date and it didn't match the person that. 

01:10:28
So like they didn't even do the but like pretending that they were in the hospital but that that was someone that went off the grid for like three or four weeks. You know one of those where you're just messaging them regularly, not getting a response. Then they just resurface. It's like, oh sorry, man, I was in the hospital. Like you know, going through some health stuff right now, sent me a picture of them attached to IV with a bracelet. That's not even the right dates or name on it. 

01:10:53 - Ferris (Guest)
See, rob, I got the opposite of that. This, this space, makes you so jaded, you just assume the worst. I actually had a bookie who did end up in the hospital and I was texting him and he wouldn't text me back. And then we had a mutual acquaintance. He's like no, he had like a seizure. It's like oh boy. Sorry for those texts I sent. 

01:11:08 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, then I would feel like a real piece of shit if I did that. But listen, we're we're jaded. But you're, you're, listen, we're, we're um, we're jaded exactly. We're just conditioned at this point to think that if we're owed money and someone is non-responsive, that they just don't want to pay us, and I think it's like that's a fair assumption in this space it's not I I had some. 

01:11:33 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I I honestly just can't really share mine on the air, but I have some good ones, some really good ones Maybe one day we'll get you to share them on the air. Yeah, the only annoying ones are the ones where, like you didn't even win money in the account all in and then they still. They like you pay them one week, then the next week you win it back and they stiff you like those ones you just want to like cry. 

01:11:52 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So like we'll get it. This is like story time essentially now, but I used to meet up with a guy that used to pay me in a shoe box every time. So you give me all the cash in a shoe box and like we would essentially like when I pay him, I just put it in a shoe box as well. Like I got all these shoe boxes, like what am I going to do with these shoe boxes? So we go back and forth and then one day I just went and he handed me the shoe box of and like I I felt finger. No, no, I I felt in there. I I felt, when he handed to me, like this is not right or whatever. And he's like, oh, I'll see you later or whatever. 

01:12:26
And I go to the car and like I put it in and I open up, the shoe box is empty. And the guy owed me like there's a significant amount. It was a five figure amount. So I text the guy. I'm like'm like what's going on? Man Box is empty. He's like, yeah, they're all going to be empty going forwards, we're done this and that. Like he didn't even have the decency. 

01:12:42
I know I respect that I met the guy in person and he didn't even have the decency to just say to me like hey, you know we're, we're done here, Like we're going to, you're not getting your money, you. He handed me an empty shoe box in a bag, in like a grocery bag, and I'm holding it and I'm talking to the guy for like a few minutes afterwards. 

01:13:02 - Ferris (Guest)
And I'm thinking in my head. 

01:13:03 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I'm like this is weird. I'm like this is not like and I go to the car, open it up. 

01:13:07 - Ferris (Guest)
So that was that's such a power move In front of him Such a power move. 

01:13:11 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That is actually hilarious he knew, though actually he knew, though he knew. I never opened it in front of him. He like he this is years. This is like a year long, like two, three year long relationship with this one person who I never knew beforehand. Just got introduced to him, where we would have collections back and forth via shoe box. We chat, you know, meet out like a coffee, coffee shop outside in the parking lot or whatever, and then just one day empty shoe box guys like we're done. When I message them afterwards I'm like, okay, but that goes back to your point about how they don't really care about, like it's not a real relationship, right? 

01:13:44 - Ferris (Guest)
You never feel more alive than meeting in the parking lot of a of a Cane's chicken fingers and exchanging money with somebody else in person. Oh, man. 

01:13:54 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
All right, uh, we've covered a lot on this topic. I think it's been a good one. This is a very unique episode, ferris, with every single one of our guests. We do ask them the same closing question If you could go back five years and talk to a previous version of yourself, what piece of advice would you give to your former self? 

01:14:13 - Ferris (Guest)
Stop betting. Stop betting and start collecting people around you that are smarter than you, that are better than you at this and can teach you not just better than you and want to fill your account with winners, but they can teach you what they're doing and make it make sense. I can't look at a spreadsheet and build from nothing. I can't. I don't have that capability, I don't have the time, I don't even really want to do that, but I'm really great at finding smart people and networking with them and looking at their work and talking to them through. I'm a really great question asker. I can ask them why are you thinking this? Why are you doing this? That's my skillset. So stop betting myself and start finding the people that I want to, I want to put around myself to make me a better, better. It would have cost me a lot less money. I would have started winning a lot sooner and I probably would have learned a lot more. 

01:15:02 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I think that's really interesting advice. Surround yourself with smart people, essentially, or people who are experts in the field or know a lot more than you in the field. I think a lot of people could learn from that. 

01:15:12 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Hey, real quick Rob. Go ahead, ferris. 

01:15:15 - Ferris (Guest)
I have a tweet that triggers me real quick. 

01:15:17 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Sure, sure Fire it up. 

01:15:19 - Ferris (Guest)
February 7th 2021. I will never forgive the guy who posted the rehearsal video. Never the one day of the year where we can collectively all be on the same side and have a massive advantage over the books, and this guy tweets the fucking video. I still can't get over this. I tweeted that. 

01:15:36 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You did tweet that. Yes, I remember exactly the state of mind I was in when I sent that, because I considered not sending it for a long time. So this was the guy that tweeted the video of him holding a stopwatch outside of-. 

01:15:51 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah in time in the anthem, but why does it trigger Ferris? 

01:15:55 - Ferris (Guest)
Why I want to have some sort of space to write. The Hammer has been awesome and why I would love to go on this podcast and why this has been so great. I'm a regular person. I think I started off the top with that. I'm just a regular person. So much of gambling. 

01:16:07
Twitter in the sports betting space it feels like a boys club to a lot of us. We feel like we can see the winners through a window, but we can't be the winner ourselves and it takes a lot, a lot for us to get there. And when I see tweets like this, I think, well, rob, I love you, rob, but it's just like you got that information. We didn't. The everyday person doesn't have the information. If I had an account with you, I would have that information. But there's so many people in these slacks and these discords who acted like that was a huge deal. But it's like information. But there's so many people in these slacks and these discords who acted like that was a huge deal. But it's like hey, the little guy, we weren't getting that information. I completely respect that. How much money you were making off of that and you want everybody to be upset about it? Maybe, but we, the little guy we're not getting that and it feels like there's this club we're trying to get into but we can't get into it. 

01:16:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Fair enough, and I honestly never thought about it like that, because the people I surround myself with for the most part are, I guess, not the collection of people that follow me on twitter, so it's a very different demographic. 

01:17:06
But everyone that I surround myself with would have shared that same experience with me because, candidly, I would get the anthem time every year. 

01:17:15
I don't think this is like there's any reason to avoid talking about this at this point. It seems pretty public and I would relay it to as many people as I knew that could bet it on my behalf and give me some of what they were able to bet, and this was the year where it was ruined. It was a cash cow, quite literally as free money as will ever come in the betting space when you know the outcome of something and are able to bet it beforehand. So from my point of view, that was one of the most infuriating moments of my life, because it's something that I continuously capitalized on every year and knew that I would no longer be able to capitalize on that. And then this year there was the opportunity for me to potentially get that again, and then warren sharp sent out a release on. He released it as one of his. He released it as a tout play and move easy that could be, that could be reverse engineered easy oh, sorry, I can't. 

01:18:12
I don't know if I could say that on air, whether he gave the over or the under on the anthem, because somebody might be able to reverse engineer the Anthem model. It could be a problem, but I appreciate that Honestly. Uh, it's not a perspective I ever thought about. Um, I'm sure if other people did a tweets that trigger me segment on their own shows, my tweets would appear in there a lot. 

01:18:33 - Ferris (Guest)
Oh, I'm just I really I just want to give you a hard time because, again I why I'm creating content in the first place is I want sports betting to. Let's open the doors up a little bit. These betting groups I mentioned in my article, they know it all. You know nothing. I just want, I want the little guy, I want the everyday person to not be so intimidated. I want them to feel like they have a place. I want them to feel like they can contribute something to the conversation. That's really all I'm trying to get to. 

01:18:55 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
No, I get it. Obviously, it's very tough doing content in the space right, especially for someone who makes most of their income off of sports betting, where you are constantly towing the line right. I do not want to produce shitty content. If I'm producing shitty content and I'm getting feedback that it's shitty and people aren't viewing it, then I'm not going to do it anymore because it's just a waste of my time. I also don't want to continuously produce content that is just going to erode my edge over time as well, like I don't want to wake up tomorrow and now because I've said way too much. I no longer have the same edges that I have. So you, you have to find that happy medium, right, and, like in regards to that anthem stuff, would love to share the super bowl anthem time with everybody, but then it wouldn't. 

01:19:40 - Ferris (Guest)
But then I, no one would make money, no one's gonna make money if I do that right. 

01:19:43 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So completely understand your viewpoint on that tweet. Well taken, I never actually thought about it from that perspective. It is a little bit eye-opening, um. But yeah, content space is tricky, it really is, um. Luckily, you know, we've never cut, really cut anything out of this podcast, um, with a few exceptions for because of a guest telling us to cut things out or whatever. But, um, it's challenging to tell that line. That's just the reality of the situation. A lot of people don't face this problem doing content because they don't have an edge to begin with and they are giving out stuff that is not worthwhile. It's not going to affect their ability to get down on games or anything ever. That's just something that we deal with. 

01:20:22 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So, ferris, you're putting your face out here now and I know it's obviously a big step and hope to welcome you into that community feel. One thing I was going to ask is is there anything you want to plug social media? Are you trying to build a following? Do you want to share a Twitter handle? 

01:20:37 - Ferris (Guest)
Nothing like that. I guess the Hammer community content creators is what it's under. I'm going to keep writing for the Hammer. I've enjoyed it. So far I've only done two articles, but I'm going to keep writing because I want to feel connected, I want to write from my perspective and I want people to continue opening up. 

01:20:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Perfect, you can go over to thehammerbet. Two articles that Ferris has written highly, highly recommended what's a betting partnership, and so you got stiffed. Those are both great for those who are on youtube. In the comments below, tell us a story about when you got stiffed the lamest excuse that you've ever had from a bookie because we actually had some good comments on last week's episode or two weeks ago's episode, and I'm very curious if other people have stories out there. Thank you to Ferris, thank you to Johnny, thank you to producer Zach. This has been episode 74 of the Circles Off podcast. If you enjoyed it, hit that thumbs up button. Subscribe to the Circles Off channel.