00:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
On this week's episode of Circles Off, me and Johnny are going to recap the holidays, the time we spent with our families and what we did over the holiday break, and then we're going to get into some other topics. Sportsbooks are starting to refund bets at a higher rate if your player gets injured early on in the game. Is that a bad precedent? We're going to talk about that, and also we're going to get into some Twitter beefs Joey Knish versus unabated sports digs versus adam churnoff. All that and more on this week's circles off. Welcome to circles off, episode number 82 here on the hammer betting network. You can check out all of our content over at the hammerbet. Rob pazola, joined by johnny from vet stamp number 82 merry christmas, happy holidays. 

00:47 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Number 82 coming straight from the. What is that? 

00:51 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
probably one of my wife's hairs directly on my shirt and in my mouth. All right, what a what a start to the show. 

00:56 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Let's get past that number 82. My favorite number 82 has got to be the all-american tight end. 

01:03 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Oh, of course, with the kitten with the kitten as um, nobody knows what I'm talking about. This is a very like obscure reference, but when I used to work at hardcore sports radio, there was a guy named clam chowder still exists to this day big fan of the show who used to refer to jason whitten as whitten the kitten uh, around that time as well, uh, wide receiver jimmy smith. Remember jimmy smith? I do. He was in 82, but former nhler I'm not gonna call this guy a draft bust because he wasn't. I don't even know when he was drafted, martin stracca, marty stracca. 

01:38 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Number 82 marty stracca, marty stracca. Jason witten if anyone has, has a Jason Witten Raiders jersey, oakland Raiders. That's a jersey and a half man, his last season. 

01:50 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It was depressing when he went to a team that wasn't the but by like the Jason Witten had, like the Didn't he go in the booth for a year? 

01:58 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
He did Then go back to the Raiders. 

01:59 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I believe so. Yes, but also like the guy played on like a lacerated spleen one year. Yeah, like that guy had. He was the definition of like a warrior. Was this who's old reliable? Jason whitton old reliable? 

02:12 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
jason whitton, and then they called him that. 

02:14 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Jason whitton was a guy that ran that like 10 yard curl. 

02:16
If you need a first down, like he's gonna catch the ball yeah, good, good, uh, good player he was actually, though, like early in his career he was way more explosive than people will ever remember him for, because he played a long time and he was beat down by the end. So by the end, all he could really do was run these short curls. He was that guy five yards, turn around, catch the ball quickly. But what a player man. Jason Wynn was an incredible player. 

02:43 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I'll rant on tight ends for a second, because this guy is just still kicking and he's not even bad. Mercedes lewis, how is the guy still doing it on the packers, still catching a few touchdowns? I don't even know if he's gonna retire next season. He's still good. He blocks, he slips out once in a while, yeah, and the catch he made on uh on christmas there, what? What dude? That guy still has it. Mercedes lewis, long time with the jegs went over, I think. He played a couple teams and now he's on the packers and he's still. He's still doing the damn thing. Good for him. Mercedes lewis, I think he's probably older than whitton I wonder how they came up with that. 

03:20 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Like because he spells his name mar. It's not Mercedes, like the brand. It's very different, very unique. But I've always uh, mercedes Lewis was a staple on my fantasy teams when I used to be big into fantasy football. He was the guy man. 

03:35 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Love that guy let me see if he's older than Whedon. Jason Whedon age. Okay. Mercedes Lewis uh, born in 1984. 

03:45 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Quite old, jason mercedes lewis is older than me age. 

03:50 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, wins in 82 and that's why he wears 82. 

03:52 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We just solved it now. It all comes together, it all makes it all comes full circle. 

03:57 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Well, episode 82 uh, what we are going to do today is a couple things to let rob uh give the agenda here yeah, so, um, let's start with it. 

04:07 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You might be listening to episode 82 or watching it before episode 81. There is an episode 81. It will get out there eventually. Don't want to give too much information away, but it's going through an approval process right now to make sure everything in the episode is kosher and can be played for air, so we will release it at some point approval process, not on our end. 

04:28 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
We're waiting on. 

04:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We're waiting, but it's. It's a solid episode, it's gonna be a long one. 

04:33
It's a banger. Um, we really had a great time. It's an interview. That's all I'm gonna say. Stay tuned for it. Maybe it's already out, who knows? But 81, 82, consider them interchangeable. This episode we're recording after Christmas. I'll talk to Johnny a little bit about how our Christmases went. I had some very interesting experiences with my family that I wanted to go over, but we're going through a period of some Twitter drama that we're gonna discuss. There's some beefs that are happening Now. Not all of you out there who listen or watch this may be in tune with these characters and people on Twitter, so we'll do our best to explain what's going on and we'll give our perspective on some of these situations. As a reminder, pinnacle Sportsbook is the official sponsor here of Circles Off. They are the world's sharpest sportsbook and they're now available in Ontario. Find out what professional bettors have known for decades. Pinnacle is where the best bettors play. You must be 19 plus. Please play responsibly. Not available in the United States. Let's get into it. Holiday. How were your holidays. 

05:44 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
By the way, it's pretty good, um, you know, can't complain, it's a nice little break that you have to force. Um, I think having nfl on the day is is a net negative, though I would rather have christmas day fall on like a tuesday. Um, just because then it's like I'm still wanting to bet these games, still want to do all this stuff, and then you know, now you just bet in and then you might be at the parents' house for the holidays, might be here and it's just like you know, more of a mess, but for a lot of people, I know that's the saving grace. You know you've got to go home, see your family, which obviously respect you have to do that. 

06:31 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
And a lot of people don't like it. Um, not me, love my family, but in the event that you do, at least you're like oh, I got to, I get to bet on the games and, uh, and you know, watch something. I think, um, I agree with you, it's challenging. So I I go same thing for me every year. I go to my parents on christmas eve, I go to my in-laws on christmas day, but I'm not like I can't remove myself from football. So I'm like the guy that's going to get up from the table every 10 minutes to walk into another room, watch like three plays, then return. But if the game's close, like the end of the cowboys game, for example, cowboys eagles on saturday night, I'm gonna just like, I'm gonna be a write-off for my family for a little bit. Yeah, they gotta, they gotta understand that they do. I mean, still, I don't'm gonna be a write-off for my family for a little bit, yeah they gotta, they gotta understand that they do. 

07:07
I mean, still, I don't like to be that person, but I it's hard for me not to be like. The beauty of christmas day, at least, was the rams broncos game like was it was a dud. I checked the score. It was like 17, nothing already. I'm like, okay, I don't, it's okay, you know, we'll do dessert, coffee, coffee and cookies and I'll sit at the table and be a good guy. 

07:28 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
You weren't sweating at Greg Dulcich any time touchdown. 

07:32 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I was not. I was not sweating. Well, listen, I already had a bet on the Broncos in that game which was like what the hell happened here? This game's over already, so that was a really bad bet. Closing line value good. The actual. Like this game's over already, so that was a really bad bet. Closing line value Good. The uh, the actual result pretty bad. 

07:49
Um, my Saturday night, like Christmas Eve at my parents, is always weird every year because you know we do dinner and then there's like nothing going on. My mother will ref. She refuses to do like gifts on Christmas Eve. Even though we're all together at that night, I have to go back to her house in the morning to open up gifts with the family. They can't. I don't know what it is with her. God forbid we do gifts on Christmas Eve. It's like sacrilegious or something like that. We can't do it. So we bust out the board games. But like you know it's, it's, it's my. You know me and my wife, my brother, my sister, my parents and then my brother's godparents are always there and let's just say it's a very unique group of individuals. We're not going to bust out any. 

08:38 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Monopoly. 

08:39 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Well, great game. Monopoly is a great game, but once you get the Monopoly strategy, they're not going to want to play Monopoly me. 

08:45 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Let's put it that way yeah, well, listen what would you say. You are in a game versus them for monopoly there's still some luck involved, obviously because there's dice. 

08:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
But I mean I know the optimal monopoly strategies. I'll play you one on one. Yeah, like we probably are going to be like pretty much a coin flip against one another. 

09:03 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I got some tricks Three houses. I got some tricks Oranges and reds and you know like it's. 

09:07 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
you know I got the heat map of the Monopoly board memorized. What's? 

09:11 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
the best color for a two-player game Two-player. 

09:14 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't know. I would guess orange it is the reds, it's the reds. That whole corner is just like if you own that corner you're in Reds are the number one. 

09:26 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
And then for the two-player game, I believe the number two is the. I'll call it light blues. Yeah, light blues Quick. To buy hotels you need the cash up, but really it's just a matter of getting the sets and not trading a guy's sets. 

09:42 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Right, yeah, this is one of the frustrating things with board games where there's trading involved and that's like multiplayer if you're not part of the trade, watching like a bad exchange happen always triggers me in a four-player game. 

09:55 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
That is frustrating. However, what you could do is like if you people don't really play by the real rules of monopoly, but technically you're actually able to pay someone in like property, yes, for for rent, if you land on something with hotels after and, or you can put that up for auction before paying someone right, and then anyone has a chance to actually bid highest. So in the past it's like okay. Or people are like yeah, yeah, no, I'll trade you this, I'll give you all my stuff's. Like okay, you're just ruining the game. Like don't do that. But if you just play by the real rules, they do have it figured out. You know everything goes up for auction, highest bidder grabs and then you repay rent. If you're bankrupt, you're bankrupt. You, even if you go bankrupt, you're still able to put everything for auction beforehand. Right, it's a good. It's a good game. 

10:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, I listen. 

10:38 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Monopoly is a classic, don't get me wrong, it's a like uh, what's the most landed on space in the game? Uh? 

10:48 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
it's a good question. I don't remember off that. I only remember like heat map colors, so I don't know the exact most landed on space believe, the most landed on space. I'm gonna guess. It would probably be the first chance the initial chance. 

11:04 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, because advanced to go. Oh sorry, it actually probably is, but I know one of the most landed on property, depending on the size of game, is actually boardwalk because of the chance cards. 

11:16 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, three cards, yeah advanced to. That makes sense but because, because you're on go more than probably any space and because of the likelihood of rolling seven, I would figure the first chance, that chance is probably good and then also out of jail. 

11:28 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Oh that orange. 

11:30 - Zack Phillips (Other)
That's why the reds are so valuable? 

11:31 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Exactly. 

11:32 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Exactly Because you get out of jail, you're typically going to roll five, six, seven. You can roll an 11, 12 right away, or actually I think the 12 is the chance there. Anyways yes this is so absurd man. 

11:46 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Hearing you guys talk about this is so funny. Johnny is very much like monopoly or no, yeah, but when I never like played monopoly until um, when I was in fourth year university that was, I was graduated during covid, yes, and we just said, all right, forget it, we're gonna stay here as long as we possibly can until, basically, like, rent is up and the other guys ended up staying in the house after I was the only one me and one guy graduated, so we just stayed there and just would like drink all day and play board games. 

12:11
We would play like eight hours of monopoly sitting there, but it was like you didn't learn anything, so no man, I was just drinking all day like so you did as a drink like I, if you know, know my personal background. 

12:22 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Like I started betting on sports when I was in high school. I was in either grade 9 or grade 10. But with that came betting with my friends on anything that we did. So you can't afford to just play Monopoly casually. No, because when you're playing Monopoly you're going to play for money, and when you're playing for money at least when I am I don't want to lose money. So you're going to learn the optimal rules of everything you do. You're going to play mario kart for money. You got to know where the shortcuts are. You got to know the strategies of you know. Basically, you want to be in last, but as close to first as possible. Yep, so you get the better weapons correct or items items, right, um? 

13:05
so there's all these strategies, and that's why, like I, cannot approach a game from a casual perspective. 

13:11 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
The funnest part of anything. It's not even sports betting related, but it kind of is is like solving an unsolved game or even solving a solved game already. So if there's a game that's already solved, like this is the optimal strategy. If already, so if there's a game that's already solved, like this is the optimal strategy. If you just look at it yourself and you're like, oh, I found out this. I found out this. It's actually fun to do it on your own and see, like what the strategy is agreed. But but also if you play, you're going to memorize stuff and just, it's easy, yeah, no like there's, I play tons of games, me and my wife diana. 

13:39 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
We do tons of games. Our friends, we play tons of games. We do a lot of co-op stuff, because if we play against each other, things get heated a lot of the times. Like I don't like losing, I'll throw. I'm not I'm not a sore loser by any stretch, but like I don't like losing and people don't like losing to me, period, um, especially, you know, if it's happening over and over. So that's my group of friends. But like settlers, for example, we're, settlers is a great game, right, but I'd much rather play settlers with three people, three others that know how to play, then watch some asshole like trading, you know, doesn't know how to make the trades, and like trading to people who have eight victory points. Yeah, like you know, come on, no good, you know that. 

14:22 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Like that, that stuff rattles me, I like playing monopoly, but it's like people like all monopoly takes like hours literally I play. I'll play a heads up versus my brother and we finish a game in like 30 minutes. And the reason is because when we roll we just kind of do like we know everything of where to go. So you'll just roll like 11 here, bang yeah, dice here collect money, just take it yourself. 

14:43
It's like an honor system. There's no banker. Oh, give me this like land on the property, buy here, bang, take it in, it's done. He's rolling like if you go quick, it doesn't monopoly, doesn't take four hours, they go, it takes five if you go. 

14:54 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
11, 1, 2, 3 oh I know, bang the board buddy, just I can't. I can't handle that. No, I'm not the guy who'd be picking up the pieces, moving them right, right before. 

15:02 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Like. 

15:03 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I'm not going to do that. 

15:04 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
But it's so easy to just. There's only 12. So, and the board is corner, so like you could just move it, it's easy. 

15:11 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So every Christmas Eve my mother always will break out the bingo set. That's what she likes to do. She likes to play bingo with everybody. I don't know about you guys out there who are watching, but in my opinion bingo sucks. Bingo is brutal, like it's a game of pure chance. That invite it involves like no thinking whatsoever, like someone reads a number and you mark it. Like there's no fun in bingo for me. 

15:36
So I think slowly people in my family are starting to come over to this side, so like, oh, let's do something else this year. My sister's like, why don't we play Scattergories? We had done Scattergories as a family before and I just smoke everyone in my family and they were like, no, we're not doing Scattergories because Rob's too good and he's gonna ruin it. It's not gonna be fun. I'm like, okay, I won't play, I'll just be like the judge, because you know how scategories works, right, like there's always, always, always, always, arguments on like does this word count? Does it mean something? Is it too close to this? It just always ends up in the exact same thing. Um, so we broke out the scategories, we're playing scategories and my god, what a heated event amongst my. Like, if you want one game that will tear a family apart. It's got to be categories. 

16:32 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Like. The rules of the game are so clear, yet so unclear, and that's why you need an impartial judge. 

16:39 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes, so like, okay, I'll give you some random examples. Okay, one of the categories is things found in a desert. Yeah, what if I put a food? Would you count that or no? The letter was A. My mother answered air. Do you give air as thing found in the desert? 

17:02 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
No, Personally I don't, but that's because I play by the honor system of you have to actually get something that's for the clue, otherwise be like oh, things in, for example, things in a kitchen food acceptable answer. Yes, things in the bedroom food not acceptable answer yes could you put food in the bedroom? Do you sometimes eat a snack of popcorn? Yes, okay, fine, but it doesn't. 

17:23 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That's not we're on the same page here, man. We're on the same page. Like, obviously there's air in the desert, but, like the, you're trying to pick something that's specific to a desert like cactus, camel, you know sand, would you put airplane? Uh, you know, I, I like to. I like people to explain their rationale to when, like their thought process when they were putting it down, because then you really know whether or not they're trying to game the system. That's how you really know. But no, I probably wouldn't. It's tough. It's really tough because they, like you said, the rules are very clear, but they're really not. They're really not that clear. 

18:00 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So we get a lot of let's just say amongst my family a lot of debatable answers, and that causes so the biggest pet peeve of mine is like, let's say it's like, uh, hey, things like if anyone puts the actual color of something before it, that doesn't count, but in some scenarios it counts. Example vegetable green beans counts. Green bean is an actual vegetable, it's a type of bean Tree. Blue willow counts, blue right, but you can't just put blue guitar or instruments. Agreed, listen. 

18:34 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I hate that game man. 

18:35 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Honestly, I'll retire from playing that game. I hate that game. 

18:39 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I honestly can't play it. I can't do it because it just leads to broken friendships and suffering for everyone. It's a game that just incites anger amongst everyone, even if you're not an angry person. Worst game, the worst. And then what happens when you put like, when two people have answers that are very similar but they're not the exact same, and they're always arguing like no, those are different, those are different, and it's like they're really not, though like you need an impartial judge you need it. 

19:13
One person, I was trying to be that person, I'll never do be that job again it's even worse than playing the game itself, because then everybody goes oh, you gave him that, you gave him this, you did this, you did that. 

19:24 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
It's like okay, like it's christmas eve, people like where, this is like I love those memes, though, about people like arguing with their family over the holidays. All the accounts, like all the instagram accounts, start posting them. They're like, yeah, uh, walk it out of your family because you just lost a board game or whatever. And then another one's like me coming back this year telling everyone that the advice I gave last year was not financial advice. 

19:50 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So here's a fun. So the rules of categories encourage creative answers, by the way, If people have read this like thinking outside the box for answers. So here's one. One of the categories is terms of endearment. Someone at Christmas Eve puts movie Letters M. They put movie. A term of endearment is like you know what would you call your spouse or whatever. Technically, terms of endearment was a movie. There's a movie called terms of. They're like oh, creative answer. Creative answer I'm like okay, you know what? Like I don't even know at this point, yeah answer. I'm like okay, you know what? Like I don't even know at this point. Yeah, I'd give that. I gave it. But like holy shit, did that cause like a shit storm? They're like no, no, no, that's not the spirit of the question and whatever I'm like, I mean it's, it is a creative answer. I think maybe they misunderstood the question and make like was it no, but that's that that works. 

20:39
Still I agree, I'd give that a point. 

20:41 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I I completely agree. And another example is like you have like things you throw away G is what I got over Christmas Things you throw away G. Obviously garbage the easiest one, right? But you know someone's going to put that you don't want to cancel out. I tossed down there a grenade Things you throw away Now that's a dub. 

20:58 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Well you throw it away from you 100%. 

21:06 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
That's that's a great answer. It happens it happens. 

21:07 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I I'd love to play scategories, but then I'd also love to never play. I I have zero desire to ever play scategories, ever period like you know, it's also not enough time. Give a little bit extra time on the timer, man so I I, because I'm the one controlling the game they're always complaining about the time, so I just add like 30 seconds or a minute because like I'm I'm watching them fill out the cards and like I don't know how you do your, but like I see people just put the first letter in, like every category it's a complete waste of time. 

21:33
I don't know why anyone does that, but they waste 30 seconds doing that. Of course they have no time for anything else. It's like you don't have to fill out the first letter for everything down the card. Just go through the card and start filling stuff out. If you don't have an answer, skip it, move on, zach. 

21:45 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
How long we been at this for. 

21:47 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Yeah, too long, 25 minutes. 

21:49 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
All right, well, thanks everyone for listening to. Circles Off. I'm sure there's people that can relate, though I'm sure everybody has a one Just put a note in the intro saying, hey, we're just and strategy than come to this point. If not, skipped it. Now Okay, and right now-. 

22:06 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I actually do want to comment though I want comments of the board game that you hate the most. I need to know, because I just need to know In the comments on YouTube board game that you hate the most if you do it the Game of Life. 

22:19 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
There's no real winner. Clue sucks too. I never played Clue. 

22:22 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Clue is trash, you won't catch. There's a lot of popular game. Most of popular games are pure trash, like all the battleship sucks. 

22:30 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Battleship phenomenal game. Battleship is horrible. You don't. 

22:33 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You don't use actual strategy, man of course again, every game I played I've incorporated some sort of strategy in the past battleship. 

22:43 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I'm confident and I'll dust you confident. You're confident in battleship. Yeah, play 10 games and I'm confident. Now you know what. I'll even go as far as say first game. 

22:53 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I'm confident, I could no, no, but I would rather do a long sample, like 10 games and you have to win six of them 10 games. 

22:58 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Then the first three I'm going to be favored, and then you're going to see what I'm doing and then you're going to favorite. You're going to just be even for the next game. 

23:04 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That's why I see what you're saying. 

23:05 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
That's why I'm saying a one, a one gamer. 

23:07 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I'd even put it, I'm not confident that I'm not stupid enough to say that I'm confident in battleship is what I'm getting at. It's, it's. It's a good game series of like that rock paper scissor competition they have every year phenomenal. I almost want to do like a live hammer event from that, from there for the for the rock that that has to be the most electric. You know how like you ever watch darts on tv and like the people are going nuts. 

23:37 - Zack Phillips (Other)
You know like they're in the barracks is one of my favorite things ever phenomenal yes but like in there's, first of all those darts venues are way bigger than they look. 

23:45 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
There's people that are like basically a kilometer away a mile away on watching like they don't know what's going but they're get. They're going because everyone's having beers and getting nuts. That rock paper scissors, in my opinion, should be exactly like that yeah, that could be. 

24:01 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
They could do a good. A good, uh that that up. 

24:04 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
They that could really blow up if given some attention. 

24:07 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
You like those slap fighting championships they're starting. 

24:09 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
now that it's it's hard for me to watch man Like, especially the first guy, like when the first guy takes that slap and you could tell that he's confident. Like and the guy that gave him the first lap. You could see it in his face like oh no. 

24:26 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
And then they just get, but like they don't even knock them out all the time, no right. So like sometimes it goes to the one I watched, at least it goes to three, and then if you didn't knock them out, then it's like judges, yeah, that's got to go come on I'm not watching that for the judges in the slap fighting. You know like knock them out. 

24:40 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You know it's it's. It's hard for me to watch, I don't know why I just because all I can picture when I'm, when I'm watching that, is myself getting slapped in the head. Yeah, I wouldn't play that myself. No, I mean first. First of all, how do you get involved in that in life? I don't know, like are you, are you hurting for money and you got to enter like slap fighting contest? Is it because you're big and maybe there's like a, like a characteristic that you have, like you're just, you know, like man, I'm a man. You know I'm going to slap this guy out, I'm a man. 

25:17 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
No, I would never do anything like that. No, thank you. All right, let's get into the gambling portion of the episode here. So Rob will let you kick it off. 

25:24 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes, so what we had this week was a number of things on gambling, twitter in specific, but we'll focus on one. 

25:33 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
to start here, you want to start with the bad beats actually, so it'll be quicker, devin. 

25:39 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Booker. Sure, let's start with that, thank you. So Devin Booker gets injured, leaves a game uh, and, as is the case now nowadays, when people leave games, there is a uproar from the general public to sportsbooks demanding refunds for their overs on devin booker bets, and we've talked a little bit about this before. It's not every sportsbook in the world that's doing it. 

26:09
There are some in particular that are doing it, but this is a particularly a trigger point for me, johnny, because I think people forget that when you're betting a player prop or you're betting everything, for the most part you have a two-way market. 

26:25
So if you're going to player prop or you're betting everything, for the most part you have a two-way market. So if you're going to go bet Devin Booker on points, on rebounds, on assists points, rebounds plus assists, turnovers, steals whatever market you're going to bet, you're going to have an over and you're going to have an under, and I think that you set a bad precedent when you are constantly refunding for player injuries to people who've only bet the over, because there's no scenario in which you're going to ever get a refund on an under. Now, the better can start to take this into account. However, it's almost seems like it's pick and choose as to when this happens, like if there's enough of an uproar, it happens, but it's not happening for every game. No, it's only when enough of an uproar it happens, but it's not happening for every game no, it's only when it's an uproar, but I I would like to comment on this. 

27:11 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So I think what a lot of people aren't really realizing is this is like an amazing pr stunt for the, the sports book, right? So this comes out of the marketing budget, not necessarily out of the trading budget. That's a big, big difference, and I'll tell you why. The traders at the sports book typically are going to make money and then they're going to have either a bonus or a review or something tied to the performance of the trading for the sports book. So if you're a trader excuse me, you're not going to want to refund bets. You're like oh well, we would have made all this money. Why would we refund this? That's where it gets a little tricky. It doesn't come out of that budget. Typically Speaking from a couple of contacts I've talked to here it would come out of a marketing budget. Meaning what happens in these scenarios is the trading team would have graded all the bets. The marketing team will say okay, trading team, how much are we gonna have to pay out? If we pay out all the Devin Booker props? The trading team's then going to say okay, for Devin Booker, it's going to cost $125,000 in free bets. They're going to say, okay, we're going to refund it in free bets. What are those free bets worth? Because they're not one-to-one in terms of expected value. So they'll say, okay, we're giving out $100,000, call it $100,000 in free bets. We might have an expected value on those of fifty thousand. So it's costing us fifty thousand out of our marketing budget that we're going to transfer over to the trading team and we are going to get all this pr of people that are like, wow, fan, to avoid this. This is amazing. Like we got our money back on this. Like I'm switching over to fan duel. I had this prop at this other book. If I had a fan duel would have been uh, I would have had my money back. Like I'm going to bet these at FanDuel moving forward. 

28:47
And in these scenarios, it's very smart for the sportsbook to do that, because they are spending that 50 grand to gain a lot of players and to make their existing players a lot happier. In this scenario, like I can't fault the book for doing this and it really does make sense. But what I do want to make sure is like, at least if you for doing this, and it really does make sense, but what I did want to make sure is like, at least if you're doing this, you should know that like this is not going to happen for every single one. There's no rhyme or reason, there's no guarantee where you could just do this. So if they were to say, you know, for example, I'll give you another scenario. Let's say week one of the playoffs and justin jefferson has a yardage total of 99 yards and everyone's betting him over and he's in all these parlays and stuff like that and it's a really big handle because it's a playoff game or a prime time, and then jefferson goes down the beginning of the game. 

29:34
It might be a different conversation because now fanduel, you know trader might might say yeah, well, this was a really, really big one for us. This is going to cost us 600 000 now instead of 50 000. It's going to cost us 500 000000 now instead of 50,000. It's going to cost us 500,000. At that point there you're likely not getting a bad bet refund because it's going to be way more expensive to give that press to you and it's not going to pay out. 

29:56
So it really is a formula within all these books. 

29:58
There's no rhyme or reason. 

29:59
They are absolutely doing it based on the ROI that they're getting, and that's why it's always decided after the fact and not beforehand. 

30:10
The only book I know of that does this and at least markets it is bet three, six, five with their um in. 

30:13
In soccer they have a zero zero called a boring game payout, something like that. So if you bet on a soccer game and it ends zero, zero, draw, they refund you. I believe it's your amount and back in free bets and that's something where they advertise it and then they adjust the pricing and they're like this is this is what it is. So you know, if you're betting a zero, if you're betting a soccer game and you're gonna watch it, 365 might be the place for you because you get that bad beat, boring bet, refund. That's my stance on the whole thing is like I don't mind if the sports books do it, but just keep in mind I don't think this is a reason to switch over to one sports book or another and bet your props at one or another because at the end of the day, like it's going to be completely random, um, and just take it when you get it and it is what it is. So your. 

30:57 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Your point is well taken on, like the marketing angle of it. I think that's important and like I'm not here to tell sports books like what they should or shouldn't do. But we're seeing the results now of what happens. When you do it in the first place, like if you do it two or three times and you start to refund, people make this a big pr thing and like, oh, we're giving all these betters back and we're going to get articles written about giving this money to betters back. You then create this ecosystem where it becomes the expectation, and that's what we're in now. 

31:29
Like people calling out sports books for not voiding bets is the ecosystem that has been created by some recreational sports books who have been voiding bets. So in my opinion, what I think should happen is the sports book takes a hard stance one way or another and doesn't make it just open to like interpretation. So it's either. We're not going to do this. We offer over and under on every market. You're free to bet both. Our prices, by the way, account for the fact that a player could get injured, like people don't't realize this. But when a book or the market sets the price on an over under, it's accounting for a very, very small percentage that that player doesn't play. 

32:13 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, and it's accounting for a small percentage that the game goes to overtime and the player gets an extra five minutes, Right but that stuff is included in the pricing. 

32:21 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So either you take a stance, in my opinion, that says we're not going to refund this. If this is your expectation, then go play elsewhere. I would argue that probably most people who are asking for these types of refunds anyways are lower value players. That's just speculation, but whatever. Then on the other side of it, you could just institute a rule like a sportsbook rule that says if a player does not play x amount of minutes in a game, then this prop is the overs are voided, or something along those lines, and then it's not open to interpretation. Then you're not stuck messaging the sports book every single time your player gets hurt, and so on and so forth, and it just becomes a rule. 

33:00
You can now incorporate that into your pricing and you can now, like everybody knows what the expectation is beforehand. The in-between is what bothers me, where it's just like okay, this is causing a shit storm, let's do it. And then there's going to be some some player that goes off in an epl game, that pulls their hamstring in like the first eight minutes and you're never going to hear of it again, and that guy's going to message fan dual customer support and say, hey guys, what the hell? You're refunding this devin booker bet and they're going to say you're shit out of luck. So like there's going to also be like a negative impact for the sports book for doing that as well there may be. 

33:34 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
That would be an interesting angle, like if you could do kind of like an if bet but in the game. So like I want, um, like even in the same game parlay, if you could correlate like minutes played, that would be pretty cool over insurance. No, just, I would even say like as an alternate angle to bet. It would be like okay, I'm betting, so it's like you could do an if. If this doesn't happen, then the bet gets void and then you price it in. It'd be a nightmare for sportsbooks to price, but that would be awesome. It's like okay, I want justin jefferson over on yards and I want a same game parlay over on yards, receptions and to get a touchdown. But if he plays less than 40 snaps, then less than a certain amount of snaps, then I want my bet to be void. You could price that in you. 

34:20 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So you, in my opinion, yes, you absolutely could price that and you almost wouldn't even have to Like. Think about 99% of bettors, right, and probably a lot of the people that are watching or listening to this are not in that 99%, but there is a very, very, very large percentage of bettors that are not price sensitive at all. If a sports book were to implement like an over-insurance you just click a box, it adds 2 cents to your bet. You pay two cents extra VIG on your bet, but if your player doesn't play 25% of the game, it's void. How many people would click that button and pay the two extra cents? Probably a lot. I would say more than half, if not three quarters, if not hot, like you could. 

35:03
It's a little bit shitty, but we know sports book operators are in the business of making money. That's why they run a sports book. It's not for your, you know, so you can. They want you to have an enjoyable experience, obviously, but at the end of the day it's a business, so something like that would be massive Probably make money off that. 

35:22
I don't know if two cents is the number but whatever it is, Whatever the you can have a math competition. It'd be different by sport too. 

35:27 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Like it'd be different by sport. Nba might be like a little. Yeah, it's different by sport Hockey. You get injured less, whatever who knows? 

35:34
But then at that point you're now giving the player found interesting is if you could bet, if you could bet like this team to win, but also if they lose by like so much, then you get your money back. And the reason I think that's interesting is and this is not from like an advantage, player standpoint or thing like that, but just from a rec better is like when you're betting like you're hoping to sweat the whole game, right. So the worst thing that happens is like you bet on an nhl game. You have the sabers to beat the red wings and then first period, the red wings are up three, nothing at the end of the first period. Your bet, your fun, is kind of over. 

36:21
So what I was going to say would be cool is if like, okay, you have it in nh. It's like if your team that you back loses by five goals, you get a, you get your money back and again you price this all in. But it'd be a cool way to bet as if you like have all these things Cause. Then it's like, okay, you get to root for more outcomes on that one bet, which is the goal for the sports book is experience. They'd rather you lose that bet three, two and ot and be like, ah, whatever, I was so close, let me bet again tomorrow, right? So in this event I'd be like, okay, I'm down three, zip. Now I can be like, okay, I'm still in this. If buffalo scores the next goal, I'm back in it. The red ring score the next goal, it's 4-0. I'm rooting for a five goal. Uh, win for for detroit and I can get my money back. I think that would be a cool concept that a lot of people would like. 

37:03 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I think so too. You think that that would work? I mean, that's why we have to. One day we have to have our own sports book. 

37:09 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Man, I don't think that's I don't think it's in the cards. 

37:11 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't think it is either. But um, yeah, listen, I. I mean this, the, the discord around these player injuries, and like the demands for refunds. It's like buddy, you placed a bet, the bet lost. Injuries are part of the. They've been a part of the game since the existence of sports. Deal with it Like. That's where I stand on the entire situation and it's getting absurd now. Now, I don't blame people for the recommendation or for the. You know the, let's say, the feedback or the outpouring of. I got jobbed because they know that there's a decent likelihood that they're going to get a refund. So I don't I don't blame them, but it's, it's, it's. It just seems like very cheap to me it's the participant trophy like phenomenon. 

38:01 - Zack Phillips (Other)
That's what everyone is now. Everyone wants a pat on the back. You know you did a good job. It's bullshit. It's like when you when, like when we played sports as kids. It's like you're playing. You're eight years old, you're playing house league hockey. You lose 15 nothing. Guess what? You lost 15 nothing and it's on the board now. 

38:17 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
They can't keep score, they can't like they make it so that you can't put a certain amount of goals on the scoreboard, so that you don't feel bad, yeah. 

38:25 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Yeah, once it gets to a certain amount, they turn the score Like it's just, that's what everyone is and it's just so soft. Everyone needs to win, everyone needs to be happy. Like you fucking picked you over and the guy got injured and you lost. That's what it is, you lost. Yeah, it's done. 

38:38 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I will say, though, whenever I'm probably going to bet it at FanDuel. 

38:47 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
At this point. I do think that needs to be factored in At least a bit. If you're betting a high-profile guy over, it should be factored in that there is a chance that FanDuel will bad bet Because they have done it so much and it's always the high-profile guys they're doing it. So it is what it is. 

39:06 - Zack Phillips (Other)
It's so dumb, man, man it's so dumb but it's like the booker one, for example, is like also a separate occasion because guess what? The guy's coming back from injury true, yeah, he like he came back from injury, they said he was healthy. 

39:21 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
He started the game and then he only played a few minutes because he had an injury. Re-aggravation there's. 

39:25 - Zack Phillips (Other)
There's like but like you should be, but you should be factoring that into your bet when you're making the bet. 

39:30
Of course, because I will say I had something. It was I'll plug the BetStamp Discord. It was from the BetStamp Discord. It was a positive EV play on and over, combining Chris Paul and Devin Booker's points, and it was like I knew Devin Booker was coming back from injury. But, based on the expected value of it, I was like, all right, this is a good play. Like, do it. Five minutes in, he's injured. It's like everyone in the discord is just like, ah, like all right, pizza though over, like it's done. And then all of a sudden I'm seeing online. It's just like you know that that's part of it. You, you got to know when you're doing that. 

40:06 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
You got to do your due diligence, yeah they also get so much more press than what they actually give back because they give you back refunded stake as a free bet, which obviously is it's not worth the same. So, like, you still did lose, right, you? You took 100 cash. Now you have 100 free bet. And also what they do is they say, like we're refunding all parlays and same game parlays where devin booker was the last leg that didn't, that didn't cash it for you. But they don't refund you like an expected value of like let's say you hit five of six and booker was the only loser. They're not refunding you the win amount that you would have had if booker won. They're just refunding you your stake as a free bet. So you might have bet 100 to win to 2100 and booker was the last remaining. They'll give you back your hundred in a free bet. They get a lot for it, man Like, honestly. 

40:49 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I'll give them credit. Also, like where do you draw the line? Because here's the thing right, If Booker gets injured, that's going to impact your Phoenix Suns bet. So like Are you avoiding Suns? 

40:59 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Are you avoiding? 

41:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Suns bet. Okay, if Booker gets injured now, gets injured now everybody who bet the under on the like, everyone else on the suns, ayton, paul, bridges, like. Those unders are now in trouble because the distribution of points is going to go elsewhere. Right, do you void the unders for other players on the suns because booker, like the whole game is for this, but this is what I'm saying like if, if, if a key player gets all my russell wilson broncos bets for the season right but but see how bad this guy's playing that's. 

41:35
That's a bad beat, but but you know what I'm getting at. Like, if justin herbert uh, just picking a random quarterback gets injured for the chargers in a game, it affects every player on, like it affects all the outcomes of the game. Every derivative of the game is then affected. Mike williams passing receiving yardage is affected. Keenan allen, probably. Austin eckler's rushing yardage totals are affected. The chargers game spread is affected, the total is affected. Like you can't just void the justin herbert passing yardage numbers and say everything else is fair game like this is my issue with it. Where do you draw the line? Because if it were me and I had an under in that game, I guess who's who? I'm not a big enough basketball fan to know. Is it going to be damian lee that gets most of booker's minutes? 

42:23 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
you know, like I don't know but I'm no, but there's a person who would be sure whoever's going to get booker's minutes. 

42:31 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
If, if I bet an under on that player and now booker goes out, I'm well within my right to cause a shit storm of saying, oh, you should void my, my bets on the under here. It's not fair like. This is the issue with it. You know what I'm saying? I don't even like I don't follow enough basketball to know, like Cameron Payne, sure, anyways let's get into the second issue. 

42:55 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Good talk on the bad bet refunds. This is a big one for a lot of people, by the way. 

43:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't want to make it seem like I don't advocate for bettors, right, like I'm a bettor myself, would I love to get a refund on losing bets? Of course I would. I just think it's become like I don't like when things are like, when there's indecision let me put it that way like open to interpretation. Oh, am I gonna get a refund? Am I not like? Either make a rule or or just don't do it like that's. That's my stance on it. Just make it more clear, cut so it doesn't turn into. 

43:26 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
but they can't because then they would have to give it for all the specific things they want, to be able to pick and choose, based on liability, which is also, from a business perspective, fair. What they're saying is okay, we will give some of you but it's actually unfair to all the bettors. 

43:39 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It's fair, like for some bettors it's a positive, for some it's a positive, for some it's not. Yeah, which I think is unfair. And and, for example, like if you're a guy who, yeah, no, like like I'm I'm a huge fan of pinnacle and one of the reasons we have pinnacle sponsoring this show is because it's like the same limits to all right. It's like if I go into pinnacle, I'm treated the same way as zach and I'm treated the same way as you, and that, to me, is very important for a sports book. Now, there's not very many sportsbooks in the world that are going to do that, but I feel the same principles should apply to other sportsbooks as well. It's like you have to treat everybody in the same way and this is just arbitrarily picking and choosing. 

44:17 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Yeah, Like I told you, I think it was three weeks ago or something when McKinnon got injured. I had McKinnon anytime goal scorer in that game. He got injured within the first 10 minutes of the first period. 

44:31 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Why didn I had McKinnon anytime goal scorer in that game? He got injured within the first 10 minutes of the first period. Why didn't I get a refund? Exactly but like this is this is how this is what we get to um, nowadays. And anyways, we're talking about sports books. I'm sure they're they're happy for the publicity, um, but I just don't think this is something that just particularly bothers me. Speaking of things that bother people, Uncle K. Joey. 

44:49 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Kanish Joey. 

44:50 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Kanish. So Joey Kanish is a fellow content creator here at the Hammer Betting Network. You can follow his channel on YouTube here at Hit the Book CFB. He does a show every Monday with Brad Powers and a show on Friday with Tom Casale breaking down the college football slate. Joey Kanish is a very outspoken person. 

45:09 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
If you don't follow the show, just go give it at least a watch. It's very entertaining and there's going to be a lot of college sports content coming soon For sure we're moving into college basketball fairly shortly here as well. 

45:19 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
But Kanish is I would call him a friend of mine. I interact with him quite a bit offline. He's a very outspoken person, let's just put it that way. He's not someone that's going to be shy and keep things to himself. If something is on his mind, he's going to tweet about it to each their own. I'm not going to tell people what to do. 

45:38 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I'm not here to tell Hammer content creators you got to toe the line or do this and that. What about his tweet? That went absolutely nuclear dummy. Viral from the world cup. That that one, yes, was like he took some heat for that, but that one went absolutely crazy viral like. I've never seen a tweet from gambling twitter go that viral. It was a. 

45:57 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It was a joke in the like yes, some people again, we're living in 2022, going on 2023. The ability for some people to take a joke is not there right now, whatever, but that was a huge one. Uh, also, we're gonna be going back for a bit he has beefed with uh with dave portnoy in the past. Before uh, dave portnoy did call him a uh, a card counter, I believe glorified, a glorified card counter, but kanisha is going to speak his mind. 

46:25
um, we have friends over at unabated as well. We've had both rufus peabody and captain jack andrews on this show before on circles off rufus prior to when we were live on youtube. You can listen to that episode in podcast form. Captain jack was one of our first um youtube guests as well. 

46:43
Uh, we have respect for the guys at Unabated, but Unabated does sell tools that help bettors profit, and they recently released a teaser calculator which essentially allows you to put in different bets at sports books, calculate teaser prices and see whether or not you're getting positive expected value or not, and couple people, one being uh, pikachu bets, who was on our super bowl special giving out a prop bet. Um, have caused a bit of a shit storm with this, uh, but knish tweeted fanduel just increased the juice on their teaser pricing, as in, you're paying higher vig now for the exact same teaser than you were a few weeks ago. Almost like somebody handed them a playbook on how to remove any edge when pricing teasers. Merry christmas from unabated, and this caused, uh, an actual shitstorm, I would say, on twitter of people taking sides one way or the other in terms of whether or not. I don't want to say whether or not this should be allowed, but whether it's moral for one and whether producing tools like this in the long run are going to erode the edges for other betters. And I've used unabated, for I'm just going gonna paint the picture here just to make it explicitly clear to people who are listening of where I stand on the situation. But I've used Unabated. 

48:15
I am an Unabated subscriber for one specific use case that I find it very valuable for me, which saves me a lot of time and is just easy to use. 

48:29
I went through the teaser tool yesterday as a whole to play around with it and see if it works and what it does, and what's happened here is FanDuel has adjusted their teaser pricing for NFL and college football, but there are teaser edges not only at FanDuel but at a lot of other sites that still exist using the tool. 

48:48
So I just want to paint a clear picture of this here, but I'll let you speak in a second. I think a lot of this the hate towards Unabated in particular, or when people start to call him out and like putting stuff behind a paywall and so on and so forth I personally believe a lot of this stems from Rufus's previous viewpoints in life about touts, and touting anything essentially makes you a scumbag. And now trying to draw a distinction between a tout service giving out picks and a service that's providing value for betters in another way, and saying that those are two different things and that those are one is okay and the other is not, that's what I think causes the most beef with people when they look at this situation from the outside. Would you tend to agree. 

49:48 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I mean, yeah, for the most part I agree. Like it's people are allowed to change their stance. That's life. Like you're allowed to say, hey, I think this is right, and then the next year be like oh well, actually, like I was wrong a year ago, this is actually fine, Um. So I don't even really have that much of a problem with that, but I do see that's why people are a little upset. It's like, hey, like he used to say in Rufus's bio, like not here to sell you anything, and then he just removed that one day and launched the product. So again, I'm not personally, I don't mind it, it's fine. Like you're allowed to sell stuff and everyone, as Spanky says, everyone has the right to earn. I see how people are upset about that. 

50:24 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I think so. There's been a lot of discourse about this and back and forth, and Rufus responded, captain Jack responded and you know, I think potentially the way that it was handled in the public forum has led to this, you know, continuing on longer, and like I think this was originally just Kanish speaking Kanish has spoken out about spank odds before. Let me put it this way okay, he's talked about spank odds when spank odds launched in the first month of it launching and basically quote unquote, like paraphrasing here said the product is garbage, you know, logs me out, can't you know? And I think spank. He responded to that in a way of like you're right, like we're working to make it better, it's a free product right now. Like we'll, we'll improve it. But the response from Jack and Rufus here was very defensive and when people see that, especially the gambling Twitter community, then I think it's an invitation to just pile on even more and push the envelope even further they're like fair enough, so I'll give, I'll give my quick stance on here. 

51:38 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Um, for this number one, I will say it's pretty impossible for them to win at this point because the majority of people who are, um, you know, kind of a quote-unquote bashing them, they, they would bash anyone for any product, right? So if you sell something that's like, hey, if rufus were to sell his picks, for example, hey, I'm giving out picks, they'd be like you're giving out picks. It doesn't work, the market ruins it. Like if someone else were to sell something where it's like a pick selling service, they'd be, or a, they'd be like, oh, that's not helping bettors win, you're scamming for your own pockets. 

52:10
In this scenario, they're giving out something that I think most people are acknowledging actually would help people win and that's why the sports book has actually had to adjust their pricing and they're saying you're giving out something that helps people win. Like it's ridiculous, like it's going to ruin the edge for all of us. So really, you just can't, they can't win, and I feel, I feel a little bad in that sense, so like it's impossible to win. You know, if you're, if, if, if it's one way, then you're scamming, giving out something that's not good. If it's another way, then it's all well. You're giving out something too good. Keep it to yourself. 

52:38 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I hate, I hate that and I don't distinction between the communities as well. Right, because this is, this is coming from a more professional community, like a sharp. Sharp bettors are the ones that are upset because there's a market of people that is going like a square recreational someone who can't model games, stuff like that, who is going to be a subscriber of the product and is going to be happy. You know what I'm saying. Like the out, the, the outpouring of emotion comes from people who already have built up an edge, and it's like I don't want to lose my edge in certain things because you guys are giving it away. But there is another segment of the population that doesn't have an edge and they're seeking an edge and for them they're not outspoken on the situation and for them they're not outspoken on the situation. 

53:29 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
But there is the other side of it as well. Fair enough, but for the most part, like you can't win in this scenario, you sell one thing, you're this. You sell another thing, you're this. No one's going to be happy, right? You're just trying to make money and everyone has the right to do that. So I do feel bad in that sense. Where I do kind of agree with the other side is, like, to be honest, the the thing that the only thing that irks me about this and it does, I wouldn't even say I'm upset, I don't really care about this stuff, to be honest I'm more interested in the drama than I am like I. 

53:57 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't have a pat. 

53:58 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I'm not passionate about this conversation yeah, the one thing that I'd say is kind of handled incorrect is, like it's actually on the screen right now is, uh, them calling it out and saying, all right, this is like the edge is gone now. Like they, they, they switched it, and I don't think there's anyone that disagree that would disagree that the reason that fanduel probably increased the vig on these teasers is because there's a lot of buzz on teasers and they were getting like oh, you know what, we're actually exposed too much here. Let's say, increase it, and it's highly likely correlated to the release of an unabated teaser tool. Where I do see an issue is like, for example, jack and Rufus right now saying, oh, okay, so big whoop, like FanDuel's out, big whoop, there's still so many others. It's like you know for a fact that it's just a matter of time before everyone adjusts right. So if FanDuel, who adjusted this, instead of saying, oh well, you could still bet an NBA teaser, like, okay, for how, how much longer they're going to adjust that to right, oh, but you could still bet it at this one book, well, you could still do that too. 

54:57
I think this would be the equivalent in some cases, which is something that would piss off everyone is like if somebody started ruining like Rufus's golf edge, and was like, okay, here's all the plays and they gave them out before the openers and did all that stuff, and then Rufus is like, wow, you're ruining the golf market edge. No one's making money now it's like it's not helping anyone. And then that guy were to respond saying like, well, sure, these six books took it off, but like, you can still get it at these three books, right, that's, that is kind of where I'm on. That sense, I think everyone would be upset, similar to how, you know, someone gives out the national anthem time edge and then you're like, well, come on, we were all making good money off that. Like you just gave that up and for free, no one did anything for it. And then it's like imagine that guy responding saying, sure, 11 of the biggest books now avoid this and don't post for it, but you could still get it at, uh, jazz ace and this and, depending on your agent, they still might pay it. Like that you would be furious, furious. So that not. And and personally I don't bet many teasers, so this is not affecting me, but I think the reality is. 

55:57
The principle here is that if you give out something to the community, whether it's free or paid, the sports book will at some point get a hold of it, whether that's from people betting more on those things and them having higher liability and noticing it on the back end, or whether it's them just noticing it on the front end via Twitter or your site. There are sports books that I've seen in person, physically seen the trading room with the screen open and having underdog NBA's Twitter news there, and I see, I've seen this with my own eyes in person Somebody yeah, we both have somebody a player getting ruled out, being tweeted out by underdog bets, coming in on that side and then the trader going right, clicking and limiting all those accounts. We've seen it happen with our own eyes and that was hey, I'm right-clicking this because this person was just using underdog and steam chasing and I don't want them to be betting NBA with me anymore. So let's call it as it is you are ruining the edge for everyone for this specific thing. It is just a matter of time, if this tool works, that you will eventually ruin the edge for everyone. 

57:06
However, however, it's fine if you want to do that and if you want to make money off that, that's completely fine and no one should be telling you what to do or whatever. However, but don't act like you're not ruining the edge. You are, but it's fine. And also, in the event that you can make money off this tool based on the work you put in, that's amazing, and I personally am now going to use this tool and see if I can get in on the action and make some money for myself, as opposed to shitting on Jack and Rufus and Dan and the Unabated guys and saying whatever, because I would rather have them give out a product that could actually help people win money versus scamming data and giving out random shit that everyone else does that actually doesn't help you win money. 

57:51
So, everyone in the gambling community, I would say my official stance is this it's fine what they're doing and, at the end of the day, anyone could do whatever they want. If you choose to give out your edge and sell it for a couple, a couple dollars, do it. If you choose not to do that, that's fine as well. Hopefully, you they can come out and just say like, yeah, you know what it is, what it is, but like, this is how we're opting to shape the market in the future, if they continue with this business model, there'll probably be other edges, and those will be ones that maybe affect me a little more close to home, and I promise that I will be not upset about those ones either, because that's just the way it is. 

58:23 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Well said. I think that one of the challenges in society nowadays is that the viewpoints on things are always taken to extremes. Okay, I remember like this, I don't want to say when I was growing up, but even 20 years ago, there were people that were way more likely to meet in the middle and, I think, see things from other people's points of view than society. Nowadays and this is a particular situation where I think that applies there are people that already have these preconceived notions of what other people are right, like a lot of the I've. I went through literally every comment in that on on Canisius timeline, pikachu's Captain Jack's, rufus's RX Gamble, gina's Seth Byrne, like I went through them all. I wanted to have a full picture of this commentary. 

59:19
Lots of this is just preconceived notions about specific people. It's like, oh, rufus, is this Jack? Is this you're Canisius? You're just a shit disturber. You're this Jack? Is this? You're Kanish? You're just a shit disturber. You're this, you're this, you're that. And there's like no one really arguing at the core of the of, of like what the problem is in general. But yeah, look at things from both sides point of view. Okay, rufus, jack, dan, the team at Unabated is building a product to help sports bettors, whether or not they are. 

59:51
You know there's a motive of definitely making money. They're selling a subscription. Part of you know what they want to do is monetize that product. That's not a secret. Part of you know what they want to do is monetize that product. That's not a secret. However, people think that because they're looking to make money, that they don't give a shit about betters and like those are not, those don't not have to. Like coexist, you can both want to make money and care about helping other people. 

01:00:17
And I say that because I'm in that exact same boat, helping other people. And I say that because I'm in that exact same boat, like, obviously I want to monitor, like I put in work on specific things. I work on the hammer, I work on bet stamp because this is my livelihood. Like I, I want to succeed and my definition of a success for businesses is making money. Do I want to do that at the expense of selling out? No, some people might say oh, you work with sports books, you're already selling out. I don't agree. 

01:00:45
I bet at all the sports books that I promote constantly. I would always advocate for betting at sports books unless there's like a risk of stiff or something like that, which is a completely different story. But you can both want to help other bettors and want to make money. Like you can't. It doesn't have to be one or the other. So from that point of view I really sympathize with Jack and Rufus because, like that, that's, that's natural. You can also want to make money, want to help other bettors and not want to give away your biggest edges. That's completely fine. 

01:01:24 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Well, it's an EV calc. I'll say this. Sorry to cut you off, but like, listen, say what you want about Jack and Rufus. Okay, you could say, oh, these guys are idiots, they're doing all this stuff, whatever. I don't personally think that. I think they're both smart people. What I, what I do know for a fact about both of them is they're both very calculated and like analytical in a sense. So you best believe this is nothing new. It's nothing that they wouldn't want me sharing that they had a chat and said, hey, this is the amount of money we can make off of these tools and it's probably a good amount. 

01:01:53
But we think if we release it, build this product, we have a higher expected value to be able to sell this company for a larger amount. There is nothing wrong with that. There's like Rufus wins money betting sports. There's there's no reason why he can't also try to build a side business that he can one day sell. That would make a potentially larger amount of money. So he's saying, well, I could grind out these teaser edges and a few of the other edges I'm giving out and I might make this much money. This is my projected expected value If I build this and grow the company. We have a this percent chance of exiting at this valuation and this is a higher expected value for me. So I'm willing to play it a little more risky and I'm willing to do this and try to grow this thing. I don't mean to. 

01:02:34
Even now I feel like I'm defending Rufus and jackalot I really think that they are being a little bit inauthentic here with the, with what they're doing. 

01:02:41
If they just said that they'd get a lot more support, like spanky, for example. Like this is about almost a not apples to apples comparison. But spanky has directly come out. He tweeted it the other day like hey, just want to let everyone know spank odds is going to be free for a little longer. However, it's not because I'm a nice guy. It's not because I I'm a nice guy about this. I think the best he thinks that the best value for him is to leave spank odds free for a little longer, get people to use the product and can't they where they can't live without it, and then slap the price tag on them. So they're like okay, I think it's fair, not like he has literally said, tweeted this don't kid yourself, I'm trying to earn, like everyone else. Anyone telling you otherwise is either delusional or a bullshitter, and I'm open about this too. We always say it like yes we give out the products. 

01:03:27 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't agree with that, though necessarily, by the way, like I don't necessarily. I think that there is a small subset of people that might not be just trying to earn Like it's not me, it's not you, it's not other people, but I do think that there could potentially just be people that are out there that maybe their reputation is more important, but that's earning eventually. So it could mean, it doesn't have to be money. 

01:03:48 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
But, like listen, we do this podcast. We did it for free. We now have a sponsor. We're grateful to have Pinnacle, one of the sharpest but the probably the sharpest book in the world, one of the best books to play at. But we did this podcast for free, yeah, for over a year, where rob and I granted it out and we actually lost a lot of money on the podcast. We had to spend our time, equipment we have to pay producers exactly to pay for all the hosting, actually like getting this out artwork, all that stuff, and it's all good. 

01:04:14
We we invested that because we thought that one day the podcast would be worth something and we thought that, in the event that it's not worth something, at least it gives us the platform to speak to thousands of people and also, on top of that, it gives us the chance to build our own personal brand. So when Rob goes on these media appearances, what's he doing? He's not collecting a fee to go on Miami radio. He's not collecting anything, but what he's doing is okay. Now, more people in Miami are going to follow him and get more followers, build his personal brand, all this stuff. So enough of this bullshit about all. I just do it for free. No, you're always selling something. You're always building your own personal brand and that's okay. You're going to be able to do that, it's fine. 

01:04:52
But to say like no, I'm, I'm only doing this Like I'm righteous and everyone else is not, it's like it's now. That's when people and again, not me, but a lot of people then start to say like wow, these guys are inauthentic. I don't really support that anymore. Like I don't love what they're doing. I wish they would just come on and say it, and I don't think anybody right now in the gambling community is chirping spank odds in the way for saying like, wow, this guy's giving it out for you, he's going to pay for it, he's going to make money off of it like he's going to make money off this. Like no one is even has even said that like oh well, this guy's a scumbag for charging for this. 

01:05:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It doesn't happen um, no, a lot of valid points in there. I think that there's a very, very big distinction between selling a product that you believe in and charging people for a product that you believe in, and the opposite of just scumming people, like you know. So the people who what? Where I'll defend unabated is that there's people out here who just you're, you're, you guys are touts. You guys are now exactly what you said, that you never wanted to be, and I don't care about what the definition of a tout is and whatever. But there's a difference between the Vegas Daves of the world, who are complete human garbage, who know exactly what they're doing. They're doing it for financial gain and they're going to do, they're going to fuck over every single other person in the process in order to achieve their goals. That is human garbage, like complete stain on society. Then you have people who, legitimately, are building a product that they believe in that will help bettors win. It might not be. It's not Rufus's golf numbers. If Rufus wanted to give the biggest edges to everyone, he posts his golf numbers or something along those lines. But Rufus wanted to give the biggest edges to everyone. He posts his golf numbers or something along those, but they firmly believe that they're charging for a product that will lead to profitable betting, and there's a big distinction between that and if you cannot see that, in my opinion and again, yes, I'm friends with Rufus, yes I'm friends with Jack, but if you cannot see that, you're just fucking ignorant is all honestly, like I'm just going to come out and say that you have so much despise for those two people that you cannot see the forest from the trees. Like you, you're, at this point, just an ignorant person. However, I completely understand why a better who has a specific edge would be upset, borderline angry or furious that there is a product in the market that is eroding their edge. And I talked to Kanish yesterday and I basically asked him I'm like listen, like why does this get to you? And I'm paraphrasing, I'm not going to read our private chats or anything like that, but he's basically like Rob, you know me, I get down on as much as I possibly can. That, I think, has an edge, and I actually do bet teasers at different sports books and I was betting NFL and college football teasers at a specific sports book that has changed their pricing now, so they have, in essence, eroded one of my edges. Is it big? No, but more and more of this stuff is going to happen, and that's a perfectly fair viewpoint. He doesn't publicly say that here, however, viewpoint. He doesn't publicly say that here, however. That is a fair viewpoint. 

01:08:26
So you can be on opposite sides of things, but like just put yourself in for one second in the shoes of other people and I like there's a complete inability of all the people that are arguing in this entire situation just to see things from someone else's point of view. That's like. That's all I'm getting at is that you might have a moral dilemma with people selling anything. Fine, I'm not going to change your mind on that. You might have, you know, a personal issue with Kanish Jack Rufus pikachu, whoever else is involved here. I'm not going to change your mind on these people. Like that's not what I'm here to do. But like take a step back everyone breathe and like internalize why someone else might be upset about something and then, instead of dismissing their opinion and saying, no, you're an idiot for thinking like this, just like agree to disagree. You there's, you're not. You're never going to appease everyone. You put out betting tools that are helping a specific subset of people. It's going to hurt a specific subset of people and you just have to deal with that. 

01:09:42 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, fair enough. This is also bad for Unabated, though, if they keep losing the edges, because Unabated's money has got to come from the user base, which in turn, has to make money from the sportsbook in order to keep paying the subscription. So the more that they can not have the edges ruined, the better for everyone, including their own product. So that's another thing, is like I don't think that people realize like unabated is not trying to ruin the edge for everyone. In fact, like if they ruin all the edges that they have, then their product now becomes essentially not not valuable to the better. So it's not like they're trying to do this on purpose just to buy product of something that happened. And I feel like you know, at the end of the day, if they could choose hey, would we want this uh edge still there or gone? It obviously choose to have it still there. 

01:10:24 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So we'll see what, how it ends up playing out well they also don't want to just keep building like a tool that's going to last for two months and then is no longer going to be relevant I think this one was less. 

01:10:35
There's a couple weeks right, sure, but the product is that the teaser tool is not irrelevant now, by the way, like I will clear that up, I did go through. I did use the teaser tool. You can still find a lot of edges on teasers right now, so it might have eroded an edge at one specific sports book for a couple sports. It hasn't been. It's not rendered obsolete, but definitely in their business model. I don't think that they want to keep creating stuff where the edge is going to vanish, like that, and then they're just going to have to keep iterating. That's probably not going to work out. 

01:11:07
With that said, here's the critique I will make of Unabated in this situation. I'm not an expert marketer. I actually market myself very poorly, in my opinion. I'm not someone who gets in front of the camera like you know, portnoy style with the messages. You know. I kind of don't really like doing that. I probably could have built a bigger brand for myself if I did things in a different way. They don't want to go down that path. 

01:11:35
With that said, I think that this was a missed opportunity by unabated to market their product. So in my opinion, I think they would have been better off rather than than like getting engaging in the in the twitter debates and the wars, using this as leverage to promote the tool and their tools, like if a sports book is going to adjust their pricing based off of your product. There is a very positive angle that you can spin that into, and it's not even really a spin, it's actually a very positive. It's it's like sports books are literally paying attention to what we are doing now, because we are providing value, because it wins, because it wins, like that is the message yeah, which nobody has debated, by the way, and that's another point is like the stuff that they're giving out is valuable. 

01:12:34 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Amazing, like thank you for that. Like it's crazy how people are so negative about that. In the event that they were giving out something that wasn't value, they'd be getting 10x the hate I I honestly don't think that. 

01:12:47 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I personally don't think that a lot of people that argue with unabated guys have ever even really used the product or looked at it I'll be real with probably. 

01:12:54 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, I mean, I've used it. 

01:12:56 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't use it too too often, um, just because, like it's to each their own, like a lot, a lot of people out there might have built their own tools to do this stuff already. So I get it. But, like I see a lot of comments that are just inaccurate in the critique of the tools, you know what I'm saying? It's like oh, you guys are doing this. 

01:13:11 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
You got actually like no, they're not so but I, the thing with unabated also is like you do have to do a lot of work to get the play sure and then, and so, like they're not just giving out, like if you go on the site, even with the paid version, there's nowhere where it just says like, bet these seven plays and you'll make money. And I think that's another distinction that rufus and jack have made in the positive light that you know you're not just they're not just giving out place anyone, like they're giving you the opportunity to find them yourself, which, uh, helps preserve the edge and helps the sports book not just be able to be like, oh, if they bet these six things, I'm limiting these accounts right, like, like, think about the teaser shopper right as an example. 

01:13:49 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
They could have easily just created. Uh, here are all the teasers to play today. Yeah, it's a bad move though, of course, because then every single that like that is going to alert a sports book. So I think the tools were built in a way to be sustainable for the most part Like, they're never going to be fully sustainable, but I think they're built in a way where the edge can be sustained for a longer period of time. But I think there's a lot of misinformation on, you know, in this argument in general, and just a lot of generally angry people. I don't know what's going. It's like the holidays. I don't know if that should change. Change, you know. But more people are online. They're at the keyboard, away from, from work and whatever less sports going on, and uh, and it got pretty wild. Um, there was this one. There's been a. Um, there's a guy that goes by Diggs something, diggs. 

01:14:42 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Well, Feinberg also had a beef on Christmas. 

01:14:44 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Oh, feinberg is still obsessed with the NFT guys right With like Bales, and a lot of people have been going after Bales lately. Yeah, there's people that believe that Bales and Bales and company just like pump and dumped NFTs Like they basically knowingly effed over their following. 

01:15:08 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I haven't been following much of that stuff, to be honest. 

01:15:10 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Neither have I. Feinberg was pretty lit up about that. Anyways, there's Diggs. I don't remember what he goes by the way. We have to on the screen. We have to link to this gambling drama, like the heat map of the of the gossip and drama, where I'm directly linked to brett farve 444, who's linked to fezik, who's linked to spoon, who's linked to rufus account. 

01:15:30 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I don't know who runs this I need to know who runs this account. 

01:15:33 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I really need to know who runs it's. It's at gambling drama on twitter and they posted, like this web, of how all these people are connected and how many followers I I don't even follow you go back 13. 

01:15:49 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Let's see the engagement, the views on that. 

01:15:52 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
This one yeah, 35k views, that's what I'm saying man, so, so there's, me that's hilarious there's me and kanish uh in the in the right and Plus EV from the Hammer Betting Network. We're all directed out. There's Zalbert in the corner, in the bottom left corner, out on his own just overseeing everything that's going on. By the way, this guy, Matt Zalbert, is not a real person. Like this guy jumps in on conversations with zero context and just like starts complaining about like, where is this person's documented picks? It's like Zalbert, these people are professional. Who's the top left trophy guy? That's a Fezzik. 

01:16:28 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Is that Fezzik that's. 

01:16:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Fezzik. Yeah, so I'm directly linked to Brett Favre 444 for obvious reasons. I think we've had some back and forths. I think I don't know if Brett Far444 used to be Dale Doback on Twitter, but if he was, it's very unfortunate that our relationship has deteriorated into what it is now, because we used to talk pretty much every day for years, but it is what it is. 

01:16:52
I want to talk about that connection with Diggs in the middle to Chernoff on the right with Right Angle Sports, because Diggs and Cherno off were beefing yesterday on twitter and digs in particular thinks that churn off is like shouldn't be moving nfl markets right. His whole thing is like ah, you know, you don't really have an edge. You're handicapping based off garbage whatever. And um adam's a friend of mine. I I mean I honestly have no idea if he has an nfl edge or not, but the market definitely moves off his releases. People value what he's doing. 

01:17:29
If I'm gonna put my like, this is just another situation for me that I want to talk about. If there was someone that you felt had no edge that's betting into the same markets that you bet into and is moving the lines, why in god's name are you alerting this person and bringing this to the public light. Like there is a special kind of hate that digs must have for churn off here to even publicly be saying this stuff. Like if the guy is moving lines and you think that these lines should not move, then shut up. Like honestly, stay quiet. Like if I I predominantly bet the nhl. 

01:18:14
If there's someone in the nhl market that has no clue what they're doing and lines are moving based off of what they're saying and what they're tweeting, I'm not going to be the guy that starts posting like oh, market shouldn't be listening to this guy. Like he doesn't know. Like stay quiet. I don't. I don't understand the rationale unless he's trying to fight the fight of like there's too many people listening to this guy and they shouldn't be. But I don't seem like. It doesn't seem to me like the messages have been like that overall. So I I'm not gonna. I'll never some of these beefs. I've been going through them. I'm trying to really understand where they uh originate from and it's very difficult, but like lots of sharp bettors in this space are just miserable pieces of shit. 

01:19:06
Let's say, by Emma. So I think this person is trying to lead us into believing that their name is Emma. 

01:19:17 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Okay, I don't know, rob, how do you feel that there's only one connection to you here? Is that a positive thing, or is that, like I think, more people hate more than that? 

01:19:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
no, there's, there's. There's way more people. 

01:19:27 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Zybert hates him for sure yeah, but he's just zybert hates everyone yeah zybert hates everyone. 

01:19:32 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So I can tell you all the beefs over the years, um, like there. There's a group of people on the internet that goes by Seaville, right, contrarianville. This was a when I first got on Twitter, like in 2010, I was about as square as it could be and for several years there was people in Seaville that were like, trying to point me in the right direction, but I was too stubborn to listen. Like we did the interview with JJ Gruden and Benson. Like JJ Gruden, that was me at one point in life. 

01:20:04
I'm not like. I can admit it. You eventually get to a point where you're like, no, no, like I. I should have been learning from these people, but then I actually got to like, be sharp. And there's still a people like, there's still certain people in that group who are just refusing to believe that that could have happened. They still think of me like I was in 2010. Then you have, like Seth Byrne, who's part of Seville, who you know. He famously called me a goat blower. You know, once a once a goat blower, always a goat blower, and he was. This was in reference to me selling picks for prediction machine. 

01:20:38
Right. 

01:20:48 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So once, once you blow a goat, you you know, you're always a goat blower. Um, don't, I don't, don't, ask me where you got that. 

01:20:51 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
No, that's a, that's a common saying, sure, sure, um, so, yeah, there could be way more. Like I'm sure there's probably a seth burn. You know, arrow, that goes to me. Uh, we got, uh, probably me out to, um, uh, spread investor. You know that was a sweat in that sweat investor, as he's, uh, if you don't sweat, if you're not sweating, you know you're sweating the games. I think he said right, you're not, you're not doing it, right, yeah, like, okay, sure, buddy the pikachu and jack feud is this uh is something else, man, man pikachu is like I've met him once. 

01:21:22 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
He hates way more people than just those two, bro, this guy was the most down-to-earth, normal guy in real life. 

01:21:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You put a keyboard in front of him and he's just like. I talked to pikachu during like cfl season. A lot, we share some cfl information. I don't know, but like. This is what I'm. This is what I'm saying. I know most of these people. I've interacted with most of these people. You put people like face to face and like everyone gets along. You, everyone goes away to their home and they go to a keyboard and all of a sudden it's like a new world war is breaking out over here with all these people getting like. Anyways, I found this pretty interesting. This web can definitely be expanded though it sure can and plus ev like plus ev analytics. How do people maybe I'm just too close like he filled in for johnny when johnny was tending to some business matters here on circles off? The guy is like the nicest guy, but he so many people hate him. How do you hate this guy? 

01:22:23
I don't understand yeah, he's a nice guy, like it's a good guy he's just a good dude like okay, he sell, he sells a package, a three thousand dollar course oh, you could expand this web so much this web needs. 

01:22:37 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I don't have the time, there's no fats. 

01:22:39 - Zack Phillips (Other)
There's no grp yeah, yeah, it could really there's no one person in particular read more books yeah, read more books if you go into that community, then you're just going nuts no, that that's. 

01:22:50 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I don't even consider that part of let's close off that's part of the conspiracy twitter I don't want to deal with that, but, zach, make sure you put the time stamp that this uh or or the disclaimer this episode is is a lot of fluff. 

01:23:03 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah Well, listen, I mean, I think this, this ain't, this ain't going to be the episode that appeals to the masses, but definitely there is a market for exactly what we're talking about. And uh, I didn't want to cover it because whenever stuff like big stuff comes up through, like obviously Kanish being part of the hammer mutual friends of ours, I think it's worth discussion all right. 

01:23:25 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Well, we'll close off right. We'll close off right there. This has been episode 82 of circles off, presented by pinnacle sportsbook. We'll catch y'all next week, you.