00:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
On this week's episode of Circles Off, we'll be joined by Peter Jennings, the co-founder of Fantasy Labs and the Action Network. He's part of Unabated Sports, part of Establish, the Run man of many different companies. We'll talk to him about all of those. We'll talk about NFTs, crypto. We'll play a game of LOD and don't know what LOD it is. Hang around, find out. This is Circles Off, episode number 86. Welcome to Circles Off, episode number 86. 

00:30
Welcome to circles off, episode number 86, here on the hammer betting network presented by pinnacle sportsbook 86 I was about to say two first hitters in a row yes, uh, 86 is a like a pretty popular number in hockey. Like kucherov is one, jack hughes wears 86. Um, growing up in the nfl could never forget about heinz ward. Wow, heinz ward. Heinz ward was like such a consistently just good receiver, like mr reliable you know what I'm saying guy could take a hit, he and hold on to the ball. Oh man, just great hands, heinz ward, one of the most underrated players ever, I would say like when you think about great receivers, no one's saying throwing heinz ward into the mix, heinz ward is up there. 

01:13 - Zack Phillips (Other)
I only have one request, guys. Next episode 87. I want to do the intro. Like you know how, when we intro people and we're like this is what this guy does, like we bring on a guest and, yeah, that's what he's a part of who you're gonna pick. Oh, buddy, like who do you think I'm gonna pick? 

01:26 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
this is 86, next episode 87 come on, I don't know man, I'm kidding max crosby, I'm about to give like a. 

01:35 - Zack Phillips (Other)
This guy deserves a proper intro. 

01:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Rob gronkowski yeah gronk man, big kick, big kick. We have a big guest on this week's show. Very excited to get the thoughts of Peter Jennings on many different things. But once again, for all of you out there in Ontario, if you have not signed up at Pinnacle Sportsbook, you are doing yourself a disservice. Pinnacle is the world's sharpest sportsbook. It is now available to all of you in Ontario. Find out what professional bettors have known for decades. Pinnacle is where the best bettors play. As always, you must be 19 plus and please play responsibly. We cannot preach that enough. Obviously, bankroll management very important, so bet within your limits. 

02:21 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
And if your limits are big, Pinnacle has the highest limits for NFL. It's a banger it's a banger. 

02:27 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That's the beauty of betting at pinnacle you ain't gonna get limited, you get down whatever you want. 

02:32 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
All right with that, we'll bring in the guest we now welcome in our guest for this week. 

02:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
He is the founder of fantasy labs and the action network. He's part of the unabated sports team with our good friends captain jack andrews and rufus peabody. He's part of the Unabated Sports Team with our good friends Captain Jack Andrews and Rufus Peabody. He's part of Establish the Run with Adam Levitan and Evan Silva, who do great work over there. He is the founder of the Solver Sports some DFS tools that you can check out at thesolvercom. He's also involved with Underdog Fantasy, better Pool. He's involved with everything we're going to ask him about that. You can follow him on Twitter at CSU Ram 88. Peter Jennings now joins us on Circles Off. Peter, how's it going? 

03:15 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Doing great. Thanks so much for the introduction and for getting all the promotion out there for those companies. That makes me very happy. So thanks, guys, stoked to be here, a lot of mutual interest and excited to chat about all things betting and DFS and sports. 

03:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I can say this is episode 86. That was the longest intro of any guest so far. So we. 

03:30 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
We should have saved him two episodes for csuram 88, see oh man, we, we don't think about that stuff. 

03:35 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Well enough, yeah, we should have saved you for episode 88 I. 

03:38 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I actually thought when I first read your twitter handle years ago, it was a c saram, that's exactly the same thing, I thought. 

03:45 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I told Zach this before, so we're not even into it yet. I told producer Zach this before we started that I'm like I'm so ashamed to even admit this, but for five years I had no idea that this handle was CSU Ram. I just called them C-Serum that's what I used to call Peter. 

04:01 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Jennings, I thought it was c-serum 88, but it is what it is you guys aren't alone. 

04:06 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
It's a horrible screen name. We'll get into it, but that that started because I was like my first online poker screen name. I was. I knew I was going to csu. I'm not creative, I'm, I'm a donkey and yeah, somehow that's my twitter handle. So, uh, it's, it's not good and you guys aren't alone. 

04:21 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It's confusing and it's terrible well, I mean, listen to each their own. I'm I'm very ashamed of, like my first screen names and emails. Like my first email was. I was a huge carlos delgado fan. My email was delgado, the champ at hotmailcom. Like you know you, you do things when you're younger that you're not proud of. So it is what it is. But, uh, we do want to get into your background here. Peter, myself and johnny know you pretty well. We know your story, but for all those out there who are listening and watching, give us some of your personal background and how you were first introduced to the gambling space. 

04:52 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, it's perfect with that name. I mean I basically was always into fantasy sports and sports betting, you know, on sides and whatever else. My friends were super small stakes, fantasy leagues, but really got serious about gambling with poker. Kind of during the same time everyone else was, after the moneymaker boom, played online in high school and then was making a living in college playing online poker. That got shut down right as I graduated Crazy story, crazy true story. As it got shut down, I then transitioned to playing live poker for like two, three months and my last live poker session as like trying to make it like as a professional poker player, we got stood up with shotguns and ski masks and the whole thing. So poker was clearly not the right direction. That was a sign for me and that's when I went and got a corporate job at Charles Schwab. 

05:43 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So we got to get into that. What happened? Were you up or down? 

05:47 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I was actually up and I had literally just won like one of the more most recent hands with pocket aces and it was like the luckiest hand ever. I had pocket aces, someone else had like pocket eights and the flop was like ace king eight or something like that. Like I literally felt that the other person like zero skill, just super lucky. I flopped top set versus another set. So I was up and, uh, I couldn't really even be that happy about how I was doing because, like multiple hands later that's when we got stood up so I have a very similar story. 

06:16 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So I played an underground game once that got robbed as well, at gunpoint, and I mean maybe fake guns, I have no idea. But I always thought it was an inside job because, like, this is just the way that you would like you just collect a bunch of money from people and make it seem like it's an outsider that's coming in and taking all the money. You run away with it. I'm curious if you think that you were part of an inside job there 100%. 

06:39 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
It was right after Black Friday and online poker. Like, literally months after everyone's. Everyone has their money locked up on these sites. It was the highest stakes game that, like this group of like, say, 30 people it was only nine of us, obviously that night, but like we're playing and you know it was a cash game where you bring money Like it was so obvious that we were a mark and I just don't see how it couldn't have been an inside job and I wasn't even that scared, honestly, couldn't have been an inside job. Um, and I wasn't even that scared, honestly. It was very surreal. It was obviously, you know, I've never been in that circumstance or any really violent circumstances before, but it just felt like a inside job. They took our money and they took our phones and that was it we all got the cell phone swipe too. 

07:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
That's tough that is tough yeah that's tough man, especially. 

07:22 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Well, I mean, I guess back back then it was actually like possible to like flip a guy's cell phone if you, if you stole it. Now it's like you can't even really sell it, yeah it's not. 

07:32
You said yeah, it's not worth anything now tellable to someone who swipes it. So you, you obviously are a big sports fan as well and, uh, we know you founded uh fantasy labs, which then was later acquired by one of our competitors at BetSamp, the Action Network. So I wanted to get into that story, if you don't mind. How did that all come to be? Where did that start? And then, how was the journey there? 

07:52 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah. So just going back just a step, I worked at that stockbroker place. That's when FanDuel and DraftKings had started to get big. I actually started making more money, like planning my day around playing DFS in 2011, 2012, when the market's really inefficient, and then it was fortunate enough to kind of win enough money to pursue DFS full time and, yeah, it was just kind of right place, right time. I won FanDuel's first six figure prize, moved out to Cambridge, got to know the DraftKings guys and literally signed a brand ambassador deal. 

08:22
And then my big win, just from a timing perspective and financially, was in 2014 when I won DraftKings first live final in the Bahamas for a million bucks, and I was already at that time a brand ambassador for DraftKings. So they use my likeness for commercials and on subways and all this stuff. And it was just super lucky because I always had an aspiration to build a business around this. So it's really easy to start fantasy labs, just kind of given the the really good timing and luck of winning that event, uh during kind of the peak of the, the original dfs boom, um. So, yeah, we started fantasy labs in 2015 and, uh, yeah, it was just right place, right time with jonathan bales, and uh, the engineers from sports insights, and uh, yeah, we had a really good business for the first couple of years and and uh, sold it to churn in, which formed the action network, because we really wanted to get the sports betting I'm very curious about the transition from the day job into full-time dfs. 

09:20 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Um, a lot of questions that we get to circles off when we do q and a's is, uh like, pretty much that exact same scenario for someone which is like I'm making x amount betting on sports, I have a day job, it's nice. How do I know when I'm ready to make the transition? For you, was it a difficult decision at all? Um, obviously, you know, I know this from. I have very, very similar background to you, so very similar story. But I played poker and I was making very good money playing poker and then you reach a level where it's like everyone is now better than me and I can no longer, you know, ascend further. I wonder if you had any of those thoughts in the DFS space or if you just knew that, like, this is just, I'm very early to enter this and this is like a killer decision for me. 

10:05 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, well, very early to enter this and this is like a killer decision for me. Yeah, well, the decision to like pursue playing dfs was really easy and I was fortunate to have supportive parents. And, uh, one thing I always tell people is like, at that time you know, I was 24 years old if I failed, the consequences were not severe it's like the perfect time to take a really big risk. So I think I was really fortunate just to have supportive family and like, yeah, if I failed, there was not really a huge downside, so it was a really easy risk to take. I think it's harder if you have family decisions or you're supporting other people or you really need the money to live or whatever. There's harder times in life to take risks. 

10:39
In general, I'm a big proponent of betting on yourself and taking risks, but it's a lot easier to do if you don't have, you know, other people counting on you. So I think I was very fortunate in that regard. And then, in addition, yeah, going into the business side, like I knew, I was early to DFS when the market was really inefficient. It was really easy to win. I know I'm not even close to the smartest guy in the room, so it was inevitable that my you, a top, top player was going to be limited, and I was always more interested in the business side. So to me that was a pretty easy trade-off to make. And, yeah, I was really excited about starting a business and also just pretty excited about the operators as well, so I was keen to get on the business side as well as still gamble and play DFS. 

11:21 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
How early would you say that that was your plan? Because I imagine you give up a day job, you play DFS. How early would you say that that was your plan? Because I imagine you know you give up a day job, you play DFS as a pro. You have an edge for you know, substantial edge for a period of time, like I remember playing DFS around the same time that you did and people you know baseball, dfs, mlb people didn't really know how to stack lineups properly even at that time, like they didn't know that you could put one, two, three, four, five from the same lineup. They were just picking random players. Like that's how big the edge was at that time for people and they were giving away free money. 

11:49 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
It was overlay too. People didn't know to stack and there was overlay, so like if you're average, you're making money right. 

11:55 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
so I I imagine at some time you're probably seeing, okay, the competition is getting smarter. Was that when you started to think that, okay, this is not going to last forever, I potentially should start looking at other options? Or was this something that was always a dream of yours? Just curious, because, you know, for me stuff seems to get more difficult and I start to say to myself, well, I don't necessarily want to do this anymore. I got to look for other outs, I got to look for other options that are available to me. Just curious, where you know where along in the process that came for you. 

12:24 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, I really wanted to do the business side. I probably started it where, like especially short term, it definitely hurt my profitability. I think I was one of the biggest wonders in like 2013, 2014 and 2015, in which the company you know I started it. We ran into some regulation issues but really the DFS market was very beatable and had like pretty big edges through like 2016, 17, 18. And some people would argue that the edges were still big and maybe for I mean, I know there's people out there making millions of dollars still. So like it's a peer to peer market. You know there's definitely some edges out there, especially if you're good, but the sophistication of like the top winning players has gone dramatically up. So I kind of I think, regardless I would have started the business, I would have been forced to do more business oriented things, kind of probably in the 2017, 18 range. 

13:10
But yeah, I've always wanted to run a business and I've always been enamored with just like building. So it was a pretty easy decision for me. And yeah, I think you know, also winning money really on, you start to understand the tax consequences of being a gambler. I know it's different in Canada, but that was a big proponent and like yeah, I just I saw that there was more upside, especially on the operator side. Like you know, I was playing DFS, but my original first job outside of being a stockbroker was for Star Street, which was an operator. I was probably most bullish on the operator side in like 2012, 13. 

13:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Was the Fantasy Labs idea your own? 

13:50 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
It was Jonathan Bales and I. I mean, we wanted to do something and it was also, you know, rotor Grinders was the main game in town and all they were doing was just like content and shows. So there weren't really any tools or data companies in the DFS space. So it was pretty easy to say, okay, they're focused on affiliate, they're doing content, no one's servicing on the tools side. And then we had these engineers that had all this background, building sports insights, that were like, yeah, we love building tools, we can probably build them for DFS. And yeah, we just were at the right place at the right time with the right people in 2015. 

14:22 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Do you think that the tools you build actually had like a significant edge for people in the early days? 

14:28 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Oh, massive edge. I mean 2015 people that's like. So keep in mind 2015 was the year that DraftKings and Fandle in September spent more money than Coca-Cola and Geico and advertising In 2015,. Like, every commercial was a DraftKings commercial, so unique active users on like DraftKings and FanDuel like 10X in that year. So you had all these people coming in. People had no idea what they're doing. Most NBA nights people would play guys who are out. There was just infinite edges out there and, like the baseline of Fantasy Labs, products were basically taking market data from Vegas odds or wherever sports books were out there at the time and applying those metrics to DFS, and I think that was immensely valuable, especially early on when people just had no clue what they were doing. So we were doing the player news, player projections and then incorporating like basic odds data into DFS projections, and that was during the softest time in the market. So, yeah, it definitely, I think, hurt my personal bottom line in 2015, but it was clearly a really good long-term decision. 

15:29 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
From experience I would say that I would agree with your assessment. I started using Fantasy Labs around that time just because it made the process more seamless for me. I had my own projections but to be able to, you know, I was basically running stuff in Excel that would take like 45 minutes to do all these simulations and stuff. Like I'm a horrible coder, horrible at writing macros in Excel and stuff like that, and I think a lot of people around that time, um, we're using the tools just to kind of help scale their process, like people were winning at small scale, and now it's like oh, all of a sudden I can simulate this and get 150 lineups very quickly and enter them all really quickly. Um, I think that that definitely was probably costly to your bottom line, but I think at the end of the day, with with the sale, in the long run, it probably worked out for you a lot more than it would have if you were just still playing DFS. 

16:20 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Right and it was just a long-term thing. And, yeah, optimizers weren't even a thing. We were one of the first optimizer sites, so it was just clear utility and, of course, the market got efficient a lot faster with the tools out there. And then, yeah, how much value was there at Fantasy Labs in later days? And that's where I'd say it was much more correlated with how much effort and how sophisticated and how smart the users are. Like some people got tons of value out of Fantasy Labs, whereas some people might not have gotten out of Fantasy Labs because they just weren't putting the same amount of effort, whereas in, like the early days, like anyone who was on Fantasy Labs was probably doing well or winning just because they were trying, and like anyone trying back in 2015, like if you couldn't win in 2014, 15, like and you're trying like I don't know that was, I don't know that that was uh, I think there was just so much edge out there, so I used to. 

17:08 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I was gambling back then in 2014, 2015, doing pretty well, and then, uh, I tried out DFS for the first time, did exactly what you said just took gambling, um, gambling numbers and prop numbers that I was using already on my own and then just, uh, made DFS lineups based on those found value, didn't use any optimizer or anything. I started off I like fanduel I don't remember like exact exact numbers, but I think I put in like four, 500 just to get a 500 bonus. There's like a big rollover. I ended up like what, what I didn't understand, like I had an edge because I was just doing exactly that, but I didn't really understand like bankroll management at the time as well, but that was pretty young. 

17:44
So I ended up rolling over one, like four or five weeks in a row, end up rolling over and like end up having like seven, eight grand in my account and then, like, donked it all back. So I literally just every week, kept entering the same one lineup into every single contest for my entire role. So then, like, yeah, my fifth week or six week, I had a bad week and then went bust. And then I'm like, nah, screw DFS, like I'm making money gambling, like I don't even like this. And then I ended up didn't catch the wave because of like stupidity on one bankroll management error that I didn't understand yet. Very funny, but it was. 

18:19 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
The props. I mean, like this guy, birdwings, who I was close with, was one of the top DFS players from 2010, 11, 12, 13, 14. His entire process was basically like look at the biggest odds, look at player props, came up with his own Excel model based on player props and a little bit of team tools A very simplistic thing and he just crushed those early years with a very basic process. And you think about the player props numbers back then. Player prop numbers are way more efficient now than they were in 2015, 2014. So, um, yeah, it was. 

18:52 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
It was definitely a ripe opportunity in those early days but I used to crush like season-long fantasy, making this and like trades and stuff. Like I'd deal guys but like this guy's yardage total is like 42 and a half and he's like's still good. And I'd pick up a guy who's up and coming like 80 yardage total back in the day and yeah, it makes sense that he would crush. You know what I mean just looking at those totals, because it wasn't necessarily factored into the fantasy community. A lot of big name value was there. I'm talking more season long which I played in like five leagues it was crazy in which I played in like five leagues. It was crazy. It's interesting how it all comes like full circle now. And then now I'm doing a lot of prop stuff and it's like you're saying more efficient, and then now it's like well, where can I get an angle from like DFS that can help me beat player props? It's funny. 

19:36 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Well, you know, just to what Johnny was saying. I mean, even though the market wasn't as efficient at that time, it was still better, in my opinion, than the other projections that were out there. So like, for example, in 2012, 2013, I thought I was like a really smart guy using AccuScore projections to bet into markets. And then I was like, uh, no, these are not that good. And then I found another projection system and I just kept thinking that I could use these before I came to the realization at some point maybe I should just build up my own projection system. Uh, but at that time, even if, like the market was, even though it wasn't efficient, it still was the most efficient that was like publicly available at that time. So it's still not efficient now. 

20:17 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
It's just the most efficient that we have, so it makes sense. Uh, Peter, so you also um Fantasy Labs alongside Sports Insights, which was accompanied by another friend of ours, Dan Fabrizio, who's now also a co-founder at Unabated for the listeners now. So you ended up selling that. Remind me of the year again, but I wanted to also go through that process because it's something that I know a lot of people would find interesting. 

20:45 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, so we sold the business in 2017. We actually, uh, you know, we're trying to buy sports insights. So the genesis of all this happening was we really wanted to get into sports betting in like 2016, 2017 bales and I from the fantasy labs perspective, and we had the same engineers at sports insights, which was dan's company, that we had at fantasy Labs, who said, hey, we have this great idea, let's put these together. We'll blow it out of the park. There's a lot of synergies that we already have already people working on both projects and we made Dan, I thought, a pretty reasonable offer and, of course, he was going to be incented because now, you know, basically he's converting, you know, his equity or something else he has a big amount of equity into um, so he would just have all this one big piece and, uh, it looked like we were gonna get that over the finish line. 

21:33
And then the churning group came in and offered like two, three times what we offered for sports insights to dan, and dan, of course, was like oh, you know, I really want to make sure we're all aligned. Like you know, I don't want to just sell this like he was interested in the deal, but he wanted to make sure everyone was taken care of at Fantasy Labs too. And that led to us meeting with the Churning Group and basically we came to kind of a deal that was mostly an acqui-hire. It was like a half cash, half equity deal with the Churning Group, which became the Action Network. So it's interesting how it played out Obviously. Uh, it's interesting how it played out Obviously. The past was stuff and everything. You know. I don't think it was the best time for us to sell, but at the same time churning had a lot of good foresight and we were fortunate to work with some great people at the action network so they rolled up fantasy lab, sports insights, one of their company, the action app and the action Okay. 

22:18
So that's Brian Mead, and Brian Mead he started sportacular the, the, the Yahoo Sports app, which I loved and that was a big selling point to me. It was like that was my favorite sports app at the time and I like the Action app and I'm like, oh perfect, we're going to have, you know, the app. We have the sports betting side and we have the DFS side. Like we're in a really good position to capitalize on kind of what we see coming in the next four to five years. 

22:39 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yahoo Sport Sportacular was way. I know this is a slight to Rob. No, don't say this, Brian. 

22:44 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Mead was, like, my direct competitor, for, like, I was a product manager for the score for four or five years and when I left the score I actually met Brian. I talked to him and when action was like in beta, I was you know I don't want to say consulting with him, but he gave me a look at what you guys were building. It was pretty cool at the time. So, uh, but it was headed in it was better, though it was better sportacular. 

23:08 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, man, I had a buddy, my buddy I didn't use the score and I think the score app is so good, by the way, because I was we were fortunate to be able to bet on the score in colorado here in 2020 and 2021 and to me you can say there's there's a lot of things the score has done well, there's a lot of things maybe they could have done better, but the user experience on the score app from a betting perspective was off the charts and I actually started sweating games on the score, uh, as well as a little bit on action network, uh, at the time. But, like, I was really impressed with how good that experience was and I didn't know about the score back in 2013 14, 15. I don't even know when it started, because it's pretty old right, well, so yeah, the score is very old. 

23:44 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
It started as a tv company at first, yeah, and then expanded into digital and I I joined the digital team probably around 2011, which was like it was in its infancy score mobile for blackberry only. Um, I used to remember, like when we would get, uh customer support emails from like steve eiserman and I would say like just everyone was using this score. It was crazy at that time and had a blast, but yeah, the evolution of that was great, sportacular though, internally with the score was a huge. There was like a huge rivalry, like cause this was like head to head in North 1A 1B best apps right. 

24:19 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So I got to start first off. Peter mentioned sweating his bets on the score app, like you got to sweat your bets on BetStamp Way better. Right now We've completely revolutionized the game on that. It literally will Love it. 

24:31
It's going to auto-grade. When you got LeBron over on three-pointers, he hits that last three. You're getting that notification. It's grading. There's none of this. Oh, got to wait until the end of the game, anyways, got to wait till the end of the game, anyways. And we handle stat corrections. Don't worry, we'll get it. We'll get it sorted. 

24:48 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I've been getting the corrections you get the correct. It's good. When you get scum, though, on a correction that you thought was a win, yeah, that's. That's a painful experience. That's one of those like bet regraded and it turns into a loss at a half point. 

24:56 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
That's when you want to throw the phone through the wall yeah, my yahoo sports hackler stories, like, like, for all my friends who are listening, you'll know exactly who it is. But we have one buddy who, like, is just the guy who tries out every new tech app and everything. He's always messaging the group chat and literally at that time for sure he's messaging like, oh, try this app. Like, this app is better than this. He's always the guy who's like we got to get on this new chat app, we got to get on this Everything. And one day I vividly remember him writing in and saying guys, yahoo sportacular is way better than the score. And we were all using the score. 

25:29
We laughed at him for like a week straight about how, like, what, what a loser. Like he's gonna say yahoo, like we were all like yahoo fantasy sports was like something we didn't like. We played on espn. I tried it out yahoo sportacular and it is one of the only thing. He, this guy, hits like 10 on on new apps. But, but boy, was this one right? Like I actually switched over to Yahoo Sportacular full-time after that. What? 

25:51 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
platform. Were you on Android, ios, blackberry? I was on iPhone. Why it wasn't my team? He was on Android. 

25:57 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Okay, good, I'm glad I wasn't a direct splite, but the reason I liked it is because it was just a cleaner look and it was a little bit faster and um the score bet. I didn't like it when they started putting in like too many news feeds. It's probably you they started putting in all these articles and news feeds I'm like I don't want to read the blame on the score. 

26:14
Yeah I'm only looking for the scores. That's why I'm coming to the score and you know what I don't need on my scores app a discover feed discover page you think I would be. 

26:23 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You know me sorry to hijack this interview, peter, but you know me, you think I'm the guy that would replace the scores immediately with content. That's not what. At one point they put the feed as the main page. 

26:35 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, that you only got when you logged into the score. It'd pop. Pop up feed only my feed eventually. Now. Then they switched it where, like it just goes to the last one they had open, but for a while it was. It was like I got to go to the articles page every time I open the Scores app and you're opening that app frequently during the day, if you're a better Anyways. Sorry, pete, yeah, derailed the conversation. No, no. 

26:55 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I love this. I've nerded out on these apps so much. I think the difference in UI and UX and those were the two best for sure it's really important and a lot of enterprise value has been created from both of those. So it's fun that we were all there for those early days and talking about it, and it's exciting to think about what everything's going to look like going forward. I mean, you guys are innovating and crushing it Betstamp, it's great. 

27:16 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Did you ever use FlashScore, Peter? 

27:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
No FlashScore would be lots of tennis bettors or soccer bettors. 

27:22 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Flash score absolute is the most garbage UI. It's riddled with ads, it sucks, but they have the fastest scores for some sports and like, if you're just that's why you're saying like the smallest improvement in UI UX is there, but then occasionally there's a subset of people. If you're betting or trying to live bet back in the day which I was you would need to use flash score and this thing was like virus back in the day and it ended up. That was like a screen for me all the time. I had to have a flash score up and it'd pop up like all the time like closing. It was ridiculous, but anyways, I figured that would have been funny if you used that back in the day too. Rob, have you? 

27:59 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, I know Flash score. I would use to check soccer scores back in the day. 

28:10 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Who disrupted flash score? I would use to check soccer scores back in the day. Okay, who disrupted that space? Who won? Who's the winner now in that that space? That's a good question. Those things I I honestly I think the score bet just speed. It sped up enough that it's now fast enough where it's like roughly equivalent. I don't know if there's like a winner now. If you're live betting right, sorry, if you're looking for the absolute fastest scores right now, I I personally use Bet365 live tool, so you go to and it is going to be the fastest for the American sports right now. 

28:31
So you go bet live, live betting basketball you're going to get, if you want the absolute fastest, you look at the odds move first and then you can tell if a bucket was scored, but you won't actually know if it was like a three or two or a foul or something like that. But if you're watching the game on like national direct cable, it's about like a seven to ten second head start in terms of the odds and then like five seconds quicker you'll get the actual score update. And I've been at I was at a raptors game last month with the score with the 365 app open and they must. I don't know what they do they have someone there's someone there talked? 

29:05
about it. But like, as soon as that ball goes in it flips to two. Like it's crazy, it flips to two points. It's nuts, peter, you should try it. 

29:14 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
That's a great mode yeah that's a great boat for bet 365 and part of the reason they're probably doing so well. I mean, that's a big data and information and speed is so critical for the pinch and shovels businesses but especially the operators. So kudos to Bet365. That's awesome to hear. 

29:29 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Okay, so what else have we got here? So you're obviously involved in a bunch of different projects. A lot of them we've talked about on the show had different members on. One of them that is directly in sports betting and within our community is Unabated. So we know you're a partner there. Do you want to describe your involvement and kind of what? 

29:49 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
you see on that product and then establish the run as well. Yeah, unabated. You know, I think it's. You know, we have a lot of mutual friends and a lot of cross-pollination content, which is a lot of fun. You know, the big thing that we're focused on there is providing the best tools and odds for, you know, more serious bettors at this time, which I think is a strength but also a weakness for the business. I think long-term, obviously, we're hoping to reach more people. But, yeah, it's a really fun project. 

30:15
We're building a lot of really interesting tools. We had the whole teaser thing. I don't know if you guys talked about the teaser tool and that's the challenge like building really cool, innovative, helpful products and sports betting is challenging. So I think we're offering a ton of alpha currently and we just need to figure out, kind of, what the long term looks like. Part of my big view is that there's going to be more peer to peer games. So I'm really excited about building tools like Survivor and Pick'Em and I really like the sports betting championship and I hope we see more and more stuff like that, cause I think you can build more sustainable products. But for now, a big focus of ours is just making sure we have really good data and odds uh for for professional bettors, and I think that's something that we're going to continue to reinvest in 2023. 

30:57 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Makes a lot of sense. So walk us through a typical day or even a week for you right now, peter, cause you're involved in a lot of different things. Right, I did the intro up off the top. You'll have Lucky Trader on top of that. Like you have a lot of projects on the go at once. So how do you divide your time on a daily basis, like what's your involvement in each one of these companies? I'm just very interested in terms of a breakdown of your time allocation and how you keep basically managing all these different things, because me and Johnny can speak from experience, I think, like a couple things on the go for us and we want to like pull our hair out. So, basically, how do you do it? 

31:31 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, it's something I'm trying to get a lot better at. Just in general, a big part of my foundation daily is going to the gym with my friends. That's like the how I'd like to start my day, and I think it's really, really important to just have time to invest in yourself. So I really try to make that a priority, four or five days a week and just get that camaraderie, competitiveness and then also working out. So that's a foundation On the back half. The other thing that's super important is family. So I really try to make a point to be with my daughter and wife for like dinners and, you know, kind of the bedtime routine for Gracie, and then in the middle I'm trying to do as much as I can to hustle with all these different ventures. So there's calls and there's times you want to do content, and then there's, you know, trying to put things together. 

32:15
I'm really trying to figure out how I can add the most value to each of these things and that's ultimately going to be the most important thing from like a business perspective in my life. So the great scenarios are when you can create win-wins. The Solver was a really exciting project that came into fruition this year and obviously ETR is involved in that. And then, yeah, right now at Unabated, I think, we're at an inflection point from just products and trying to figure out how to market the business better, so spending a lot of time on that as well. So each day, each week, is different. Today I was fortunate to go skiing with one of the founders of Fantasy Labs, who's now working at Innovated Kevin, one of the engineers, so that was a great day. Killed two birds with one stone. 

32:56 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
But yeah, fed two birds. Fed two birds with one scone. 

33:00 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
We don't want pita after us we don't, we don't okay, sorry, I use it like. Another great thing would be like inside joke. 

33:08
Sorry, peter okay, oh, it's great like playing golf with johnny, like when he was out here and never like those are like my favorite things. Like we get to play golf in vegas, like I want quality time with people. I respect that can add value, mutually beneficial ways, and that's kind of the main thing I'm trying to figure out with these things and it's like great. Like. Another example would be, like you know, etr and underdog like that's a great partnership where ETR has this great fantasy audience. Obviously you can bring them over to underdog where they're offering all these fancy products. Like that's been a really good marriage. So, uh, just trying to find win-wins like that and and uh, really trying to be as proactive and helpful as I can from a fundraising and product side as well. 

33:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Where do you think? This is a very personal question, but where do you think you provide the most value in terms of you know, provide the most value to these companies? Do you think it's your reputation in the space, your experiences in the space? I'm just curious. Like you know, you kind of said, basically you want to provide that value in everything that you're working on. What do you think is your best quality that you bring to all these projects that you're working on, or a part of? 

34:12 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I mean I think there's a lot of things I could do a lot better at. I could be a better executor. I think in certain ways, I could um provide like more direct value with, like like captain jack does a great job for community. I want to do stuff a little bit like that better. I think my strength is more on like putting the pieces together and the high level stuff, um, and part of that comes with like fundraising and just making deals happen, um. So that's that's probably where I I get the most enjoyment, where I think I'm adding value. 

34:41
I think the reputational stuff, um certainly can be additive. It's something I want to continue to get better at as well. But yeah, I think, especially relationships over time, like one thing that's really important to me, that I think is important for anyone who's trying to build businesses, partnerships et cetera, is like trying to provide value and see things from the other person's point of view or the other company's point of view. So that's something that I really take pride in is like okay, how can we create a win-win here? What's important for the other side? How can there be like a one plus one equals three situation? That is the most satisfying and exciting thing to me and I'm hoping to do more of that in 2023. 

35:18 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
What is the most exciting thing that you're working on right now? 

35:22 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Oh, we put them on the spot big time working on right now. 

35:28 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Oh, we put them on the spot big time. Uh, wow, that's a really good one. We have a really cool value feed, I think, coming at unabated. That I'm super stoked about. Um, there's some products there. I think underdog has some amazing products coming out this year. The growth of underdog and prize picks has been incredible, so that's been really fun to see. And then, yeah, I mean probably the most successful. But I think there's a lot of improvements that we can make at ETR, even though I think they did an amazing job last year. So some combination of those three things would be my answer. And sorry to hedge my bets so much there. Those are like and all different things like a really cool tool. I'm excited about the content side of things with etr and then from an operator perspective, I just think what underdog's doing is awesome well, okay, let's, let's stick with that for a second you made a good. 

36:14 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
You made a good, uh, a good choice, by the way, right, so no one can get offended. You can just say this listen, I'm on a sports betting podcast. These guys reach a sports betting audience. I got a to plug Unabated and Underdog and call it a day. So you hedge both and I agree with you. I like what Unabated is doing Underdog, obviously just going live in Ohio. They got the temp license in Colorado, probably a few more states, but for those of you unfamiliar, if you're in a variety of US states that are unrestricted, you could play at underdog on like their kind of fantasy pick'em uh challenge. And then I believe they are launching now. Um, in the regulated sports book space we have a traditional book. I mean, if you want to talk a little bit more about that underdog, our uh listeners are right up that alley yeah, I mean 100 eyes. 

36:58 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Have you guys tried the best ball products? 

37:00 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
we. They took them out of ontario so we can't personally pull which is tough. 

37:04 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, it's hard to get it when you can't play. I don't know If I can't do it or experience it myself. It's very hard for me to get into it or talk about it. But the playoff best ball, knowing your guys' background, you guys would crush it. It's so much fun. 

37:17
It's a DFS contest, or essentially a DFS contest, where it takes your best players every week and just automatically you play them and then with the playoffs it starts in. You know, some of the contests are in the wild card round, some of the contests start in the divisional round so you have to have players that do well every week. But it becomes like a futures bet as well, because you know now like you could have been all over the cowboys or whoever else who had a great wild card week but now are out and they're not going to give you any points in the conference championships, in the Super Bowl, and the majority of the money is paid out to the Super Bowl winner. So it's like a really interesting game theory where you're like trying to draft good fantasy players but guys that can make the Super Bowl, and especially in the wildcard round it's like really tough to like kind of figure out what to do because the Eagles and Chiefs obviously likely to make the Super Bowl but they don't give you any points in that first week where you have to like win in advance. So I love that product, I love the season-long stuff and then it's crazy. 

38:08
I'd love to hear your guys's perspective on, like prize picks and and underdog, like the growth of those pick'em games. I mean, it's just off the charts how much those are growing. Are you guys playing, doing content around them? What are your guys thoughts? 

38:19 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I'll. I'll answer it first. Right now I will. I will say because we we do be honest with the listeners here at circles off underdog and prize picks eight, you are able to beat them. You can win on those sites, absolutely. Um. However, it is much easier to win on traditional sports book because they don't the the payout process there is a little bit different than what you're probably used to in a traditional sports book, in that they don't return the risk amount in the payout, so it looks like you're getting a much bigger payout than you actually are. So, first and foremost that, however, the thing with underdog and prize picks is they're so fun you can just it's basically prop. Parlays is what it is. It's like a five team prop parlay Way more hold. 

38:59
I would love to dig into that too, by the way because, by the way, because that's like you're, what you said is 100 true. I just want to give. I just want to be honest with the customers, right with with, like, the customers of their site, for example. Like, if you are playing there, it's going to be fun, there's more options, there's definitely a lot more you can do and it's simpler of a game for sure. However, if you're looking to make money, you're going to want to stick traditional sports book and you can do those same prop parlays and get a higher payout. You just will have to mix them and match them from different games as opposed to the same game. And if you're doing same game, you can do same game parlays, but most books will not allow multi same game parlays. There's one that does now, but anyways, that's my rant, that's what I think about them. I like the games. I can't play them myself because they're currently banned in Ontario, but would definitely be doing that if I was in a regulated state there. So what do you? 

39:47 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
think peter or rob. 

39:47
So I was I was first introduced to underdog by peter at the bookie better breakfast at bet bash 2, where he talked about it and said check it out. And then I was doing a lot of research into it and I'd heard of prize picks before. I think this is just like the natural evolution of the betting space where, like, people are kind of sick and tired of like just the basic traditional type of sports betting and they're looking to vary it up a little bit. This appeals to the vast majority of the population. So I'm not surprised when I see these companies starting to take off now, because people do like the element of parlays. It creates more excitement. The element of a bigger payout creates more excitement. Not having to just pick the side and total on a game and being able to use player props and stuff like that creates more excitement. So to me this is like the natural evolution. 

40:30
I had wish I had known about this a long time ago, peter, because I probably would have been on board with a product like this, but I think it's cool. 

40:37
Honestly, I do like it and it I remember like my first experiences playing dfs, where it created like this sense of camaraderie amongst our, our friends and our groups where we were just talking about stuff every day like what players are you playing tonight, what you doing this tonight, and I think that prize picks and underdog what they've done well has created a sense of community as well, where people are sharing their lineups, showing other people what they're doing. Um, I, I just I mean I, I can see why it's booming for a better. Like me, I don't really have the appetite for that personally, but I'm probably in the vast minority in the style that I like to bet. So, um, yeah, that's just my two cents. I haven't, you know, I haven't dug too deep into the products or anything like that in terms of being able to play them because of geolocation restrictions, but I mean I can see the appeal for the mass population. 

41:31 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, you guys nailed it. It's super interesting. I do agree that that's where things are going and I think a lot of this stuff makes a ton of sense. The one thing they really got right is, in general, people love these parlays and lottery type payouts and I think that's something that's really critical going forward and hopefully there'll be less and less hold in a lot of these markets and I think that's one fair criticism of these, you know, of prize picks and underdog is, you know the holds are higher and what you see is, yeah, a higher percentage of people you know are going to lose. I don't think they're losing. 

42:08
I mean, anyone can lose a lot of money anywhere but like, broadly they're they're higher holds but it's lower stakes than I think a lot of people like there's a lot more. 

42:12
Like people who are doing $5 on like a five leg player parlay versus like the person who's betting the same, like a similar type of person might bet a hundred dollars on just like a prop bet, right. That being said, what's really interesting is like the 0.1 percentile are crushing these sites because they're currently not limiting people. So I know for a fact that there's people are making like six, seven figures on these things, even though there's so much hold, there's all these correlations and there's things that they can do and, like WNBA for instance, those lines are not nearly as efficient as the NFL pick-em parlays that they have or pick-em products that they have. So it's really interesting when you just start looking at the opportunities, there's definitely some people who are crushing them. So, yeah, it's like on this extreme end, if that was your main main focus, you could do really well. And then I think it is good for the super casual person who wants $5 of entertainment that night. 

43:04 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Everyone has different motivations when they bet, plain and simple. What my motivations are might not be the motivation of all my friends who are looking to just entice their sport, sorry, like increase their sports betting experience, like, uh, in terms of entertainment, uh, on a nightly basis, and I think this product just really lends itself to doing that. Um, that's not to say that you can't get entertainment out of a traditional sports. You get entertainment, for sure you want, but it, it, I. 

43:30 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I understand the appeal to it I'm not trying to like uh down. Oh, first off, one thing before before I forget underdog nba, the twitter account. Oh yeah, so it's our fantasy labs guys. It's just a fan, right? So yeah, it's the same. We did that with the fantasy labs nba. You guys had a fantasy labs nba, so essentially what? Oh yeah, it's our Fantasy Labs guys, it's. 

43:44 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Justin Phan right, yeah, it's the same. We did that with the Fantasy Labs NBA, you guys had a Fantasy Labs NBA. 

43:48 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So essentially what I was going to say is listen, it's no longer an edge right now. 

43:52
For the most part, it's completely dried up. You're not going to be able to beat the steam unless you have a really slow moving PPH or something like that. But realistically, last year you were able to get a significant amount of clv just turning a tweet notifications on for underdog nba and the year prior fantasy labs nba and then legitimately just steam, steam chase when a guy got out, like you know, dame lillard ruled out, lebron ruled out, someone ruled in and beat in and just hit that side or the other side subsequent to the news big edge, great product that you guys made. But again, like anything, edge dries up and Rob and I we were there and saw like I've specifically seen a sports book at a reputable big sports book trading, like a trader at the sports book with four screens and one of his screens was a tweet deck and one of his tweet decks was just underdog NBA. So eventually it comes to the point where the edges go away. It's the hard part about betting right. 

44:46 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Like the teaser tool is a great product, but then like yeah, an operator starts looking at it and that's. That's something that I think is really challenging and interesting about the sports betting space. So like yeah, always opened ideas and I know you guys are building a lot of really cool stuff. It's just like that to me is like one of the really you want to provide value. But like. 

45:10 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
At the same time you have to be really thoughtful about how you provide it, because edges inevitably go away. I wonder what if, uh, the success in prospects and underdog is lardless? Those companies are both crushing it. But I wonder if, like you would probably know the splits a little better how much of that action comes in like regulated versus unregulated States for traditional gambling, because right now those companies have kind of, you know, work around, call it, where there it's typically not, it's technically not a gambling, so they can operate in different States. And because of that you have, like, fantasy players and people who are, who might be in like Florida, for example, and are able to play there but can't actually bet on, like draftkings, fanduel or, uh, you know, mgm caesars. Any thoughts on that, peter? 

45:49 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
yeah, I mean, I think it's really important. I mean that's it's really cool. These are fantasy products and I think that hopefully there's even more evolution and like predicting players and and that element of like turning it into a fantasy game I think is really important and I hope we can see more iterations on that because yeah, it is a huge um arbitrage I guess maybe that's not the right word but like from an operator perspective, it's like, yeah, like fanduel and drafting's having a dfs product was a huge customer acquisition edge over the traditional books, uh, when it comes to acquiring customers in states where they have explicitly legal fantasy bills but they don't have the sports betting regulation yet. So my goal and what I, you know, hope long-term happens, and I think most of the industry hopes happens is that we just see legal sports speculation across betting fantasy whatever across the states, and hopefully that comes sooner rather than later. But obviously it's a process and it's a state-by-state thing at this point in time. 

46:42 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Do you see yourself continuing to expand your footprint into other sports betting companies, whether it's fantasy, space betting itself or something unique, or is this like you got what you got now enough on your plate? I'm just curious are you actively like looking for other opportunities that are out there in the space? What goes on in terms of your, like, personal portfolio? 

47:05 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
yeah, I definitely am still interested from an investing perspective. I definitely am. I think one thing I'm really thought or cognizant of going forward is just like being thoughtful with my time and not being oversubscribed. I want to be able to provide value and I definitely am limited on time. So, from a sweat equity perspective, definitely have the plate full, but still interested in investing. 

47:26
Obviously it's a little bit different macro and I think one mistake I made, just from an investing standpoint as an investor, was over allocated during the boom of 2020, 2021 into the early part of 2022. So going to be more selective than I've been in the past maybe, but still super interested in the space, especially if I can be a value add. So I have some other investments that are in the space I think are really cool. Shout out to the Better Pool guys that have runyourpoolcom and myofficefootballpoolcom. I think that's a really cool space and there's some others that I think are really interesting. But yeah, from a time perspective, it's really hard to do a lot of things well and I think oftentimes the best results come from when you're just like hyper-focused on one thing. 

48:08 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Is there anything that piques your interest outside of sports or crypto? 

48:13 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I've tried that big time. I'm really interested. One of my favorite deals is a climate company that makes motors. It's called TurnTide Technologies. They're pretty big, big. They almost went public in 2021. Amazon, bill gates, a lot of big names and big companies are behind them. Basically, they make more efficient motors down to like for, like, refrigerators um, you know, hfax air conditioning units. They basically took kind of some of the similar technology and motors for nuclear power plants, which is like a huge amount of you know, and we're able to make motors like 50% more efficient, which is a huge thing for climate change, because a lot of kind of what's going on from an energy perspective is just wasted energy. So I've played in a lot of things like that. I've looked into other tech companies Candidly. 

49:00
I haven't had as much success outside of sports and crypto and I think that's a good lesson for anyone listening. 

49:06
Just like broadly, you're going to have the most alpha in your own lane and I think I was a bit arrogant to think that I would have the same investing success in areas I didn't know as well. 

49:17
But I'm still super interested in that and I think one challenge in the betting world is like I really hope in my life that I can have a big impact and a positive impact on society, and I do think there is a really positive impact that we have in betting. I think it's the best entertainment in the world and we're enhancing great entertainment. But I would love to do something that has like a different type of positive impact one day. So I'm still interested. I got humbled in the last couple of years trying to do way too much, and now I'm just really trying to, you know, be strictly focused on these sports businesses. A big part of my ethos is just trying to be successful. So I want to make those wins and then we'll see what what life brings down the road do you uh invest in uh stocks at all or uh stonks? 

49:59 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
oh yeah, as the kids call nowadays yeah, that's. 

50:03 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
that's a. That's how I spend part of my day as well. At night, I'm listening to mostly finance podcasts. I was a stockbroker for a year and a half so I got my Series 7, 63. My dad is retired and is obsessed with that stuff. I don't trade very often. I hold 20 stocks and have positions, but I really spend a lot of time thinking about it. 

50:26
One thing that might be applicable is the big mistake I made from the last couple of years was I kind of thought of all my investments as like in terms of buckets. I was like, okay, I'm going to have my money in crypto, I'm going to have my money in private investments, I'm going to have some money in stocks, I'm going to have some money in real estate. And I evaluated each of those buckets as if I was like a young risk on person, instead of thinking about the whole thing holistically. So my big mistake and where I got hurt was I probably had too much money in the stock market relative to my overall portfolio when I was so risk on everywhere else. 

50:57
Startup founder with a lot of illiquid private companies, crypto Like why do I need more Like, even though it's less risky than those? Why do I need so much exposure in stocks when, like, the macro is good, I'm gonna do well? So I've gotten more defensive. I'm really interested in like the uh short-term opportunities, especially in like cds, treasuries, things that nature, uh. So I'm a bit more defensive than I've ever been, but I think from a holistic perspective it makes sense, given I'm still risk on everywhere else makes Just another form of bankroll management when you think about it. 

51:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
And no, one. I don't think anyone really gets that right the first time regardless. 

51:31 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
So at least you're open about it and it works for so long. Like you know, when I first came into money 2011, 12, 13, 14, I would just put in the stock market and it's gone nothing but straight up and, of course, like that was just the hubris. It's like, oh, everything's gone up. I'm investing. I'm a young person, like this is all going to work out and like, yeah, it was over invested, for sure At the end of 2021. 

51:53 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Did you buy GameStop? 

51:55 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
No, so I never have done that stuff. Like I own boring stuff. Like my biggest positions are like Costco I guess, like Amazon's a big tech stock. But like I own, like I own gold. Like when people think that like I'm like you know, a young guy owning gold is like a 34 year old is probably pretty boomer. 

52:11 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
But yeah, like I don't go ahead. 

52:19 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Go ahead. I own uranium. I'm really interested in nuclear power. 

52:24 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Walmart like I have some non-sexy stocks that I'm, that I'm interested in, all right. Well listen, this is in no way financial advice, nor would I ever be qualified to give you financial advice. 

52:30 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Take a look at kegun K-E-GU-N. 

52:36 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
No we're just another inside joke. This is for those listening. Again, absolutely not financial advice. This is the royalty fund for the keg, Rob and i's favorite restaurant here in here in ontario so do you guys? 

52:48 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
did you guys day trade during, uh, covid? Because I got super into like? I was like I was not day trading but I I've been a long-term buy and hold guy broadly, but during covid I was like watching you know barstool and watching you know all sorts of stuff. Prez was hilarious Like I was pretty interested in just like trying to figure out what's going on. I didn't trade a lot, but I traded way more than I ever have during that time. 

53:12 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I didn't. I hate stocks personally, mainly just because, like, I know roughly what it takes to beat one market in sports betting and how difficult it is and how much time and effort and energy, and know how you need to be, and then I also know how like deep the spectrum goes. And then, when it comes to like the stock market, personally I just don't. I don't feel like I have an edge and I and I don't feel I'll ever be able to have an edge, nor am I even close. So, yes, you can buy and hold and just invest in the whole market, but, um, I'm definitely not a whole like picker and I'm definitely not a day trader. But I will let Rob answer and then I'll tell you what I did do during the during the pandemic. 

53:49 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So I did. I did trade a lot of crypto during the pandemic. Oh baby, which honestly went really well. I, I, I. I can't say I really had an edge there or not, but it was pretty successful. I was trading on leverage, sometimes as high as like 10 times it was it got. Oh, give me, give me your best crypto story. 

54:08
I I love this I honestly don't have good ones like the, the. I I do not have good crypto store. I guess the best crypto story was somebody telling me to buy ripple a long time ago and me telling them about how much they're an idiot and it's like not, you know it's, it's it's not decentralized and so on. This is like a bullshit crypto and whatever and so on and so forth, and that person's like now retired, like just they like to rub it in my face every now and then. But I don't have good crypto stories because for the most part, I'm very I'll get really into it for like three or four weeks right, where it just consumes everything. I can't even go to sleep at night without waking up and checking my phone every two hours to see what prices are, especially when you're trading on leverage and you have something open overnight. 

54:53
There'll be times where I'm awake for like 48 hours straight, I'm wired and then it just get the burnout and I'm like why do I do this to myself? And I become very disinterested in in crypto. So I'm not a guy that has great stories. I don't like I've I've had some swings, but I've had so many of them that I can't even recall them. It's like it's like being a poker player, right with the bad beats and your big wins, and it's like I can't. I don't remember the worst beat of my life, I don't remember my biggest win in poker. Like I don't remember any of that. It's just all a blur, because I go so hard at it at once that like I then just distance myself from it, if that makes sense totally and it's important to be able to forget and like handle that emotion. 

55:36 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I think it's very applicable in sports betting. I mean, obviously, tilting and like making emotional decisions and any of these things is going to get you killed. And, johnny, I couldn't agree, agree more. I don't. I don't necessarily think I have an edge. I certainly don't think I have an edge like in in trading stocks and day trading. 

55:50
I think that's like especially now, like that's a you need like a lot of assistance from computers and we'll it'll be interesting to see what AI does there. But like, yeah, my, my broad view is, if you're young and you can find companies and you do a lot of work on like very specific companies, you might be able to have an edge. Especially, it is a way more efficient market than even sports betting. But it's a lot easier to win when you have less money. It's way harder, like it's way easier to have like 30% returns if you're managing a million dollars than if you're managing a billion dollars, for example. So, like I'm curious, I'm like I probably am not winning, but I'm competitive and hopefully one day can feel confident I might have some alpha. 

56:30 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So I feel like, well, first off, you teased your greatest crypto story, so we got to hear those before we get too far. I don't see how we don't ask you now. What's your best crypto story then? 

56:41 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
My favorite crypto story is probably from CryptoPunks. The first CryptoPunk I bought in early 2021. Later I bought that one and then I flipped a couple floors up to my current my profile picture and that profile picture I bought in the uh parking lot of the hospital before my daughter was born. So that was a cool story. And then the best financial win was the, the first crypto punk I bought about for gosh 21 eath or something which was like 36k at the time and sold it near the top in august of 21 for 288 eath of basically a million bucks. So that was. That was pretty wild to see some pixels basically be a million dollar p l uh or profit in in a year's time it sucks, but come up if I, if I I've had other bad losses too. 

57:25
I want to like. I like I invested a ton like bales and I invested in, like uh, goons of patroon. I probably lost like 30 40 eath. I lost money on zed, which I thought was so cool. The virtual horse racing like my overall pnl and crypto from an nft trading perspective is not like amazing. 

57:41 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I did really well with punks and like kind of shitty with everything else oh, that's like literally every industry, though you're like oh, I did well with bitcoin and got slaughtered on the all it's like, and that's kind of how it is, you know, if we're including nft stories. 

57:54 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Johnny has seen this video. I've never shared it publicly before, but I did. I did record my wife's face the first time. I told her that I bought a crypto punk and she was like trying to figure out what this was and she saw the dollar amount next to it like the conversion from eth to us dollars. Yeah, and she saw what it was and she, she was just not, was not processing this Dude, that's the best video I've seen. 

58:20 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
She's like on the video, just for the listeners here. She's like so you just bought this for this much money and it was like it was a lot Right, um. And then and she's like and this sold previously, six months ago for $20. 

58:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I bought a punk for 47,000 that had sold pre. The previous sale was 20 bucks, so I love that so much. 

58:44 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
And then he's like and then Rob's just in the video, he's like this is our retirement babe. And she's like when are you serious? 

58:51 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
And she was so she was very unhappy that day. 

58:54 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Who is she's like? I'm calling tyler right now. 

58:58 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't even know who that is, but it's one of her friends to tell her about how ridiculous of a story this is and how much uh. 

59:03 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, but that was jokes it worked out what I did, uh, so I wanted to tell this quick. Well, what I did during the pandemic, which was related to stocks, was, uh, one of the larger um sports books I don't want to say name, but it's like the second sharpest and not a sponsor of the podcast. And then so they were hanging lines, when basically what they did was they're hanging lines on like what will the Dow close the day at, and then what will S&P 500 close the day at, and they're taking a 1K limits. Obviously they allow rebet, so pretty much you know they'd move them, but also they wouldn't really move them as much. 

59:39
And, um, essentially what I was, what I did was just like, well, myself as well as, uh, my partner, we we basically like model out the volatility on how it would work with that kind of stuff, and then like, hey, what is this like? Where can we find an edge here? Like the volatility from now until the end of the day, and we ended up it's never going to come back. So I don't mind giving this out. But basically we came out with like some rough model that showed that, like, the volatility from like an hour in to close is super high. So they were just pricing it based on the current, and then they'd take action and flip. But you could have, you could get some stuff at like plus 380, plus 400, plus 700 to go up above like a certain alt, and then they were hitting like every three days because, like, the volatility at the end was so crazy. So we ended up cleaning up on that and that was my love that stock trading. 

01:00:26
They didn't price it with the right distribution, not even close and also it was crazy, like, like these things were up and then we'd have like I'm not a politics guy at all, and we'd put on like we'd have like I'm not a politics guy at all, and we'd put on like we'd be like oh, trump's about to speak, get it on the TV Because, like, it's impacting. It's impacting markets, oh it's massive Yep. 

01:00:46 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
The coolest crypto story ever that was like a crypto prediction market was did you guys see all the stuff about Trump? After he had lost right Technically, like Biden was going in, there was a huge market where you could bet if Trump was going to be president, like a month later, two months later, three months later and there's one person who provided like tens of millions of dollars of liquidity on one of these markets. So you could go out and basically say I don't think Trump's going to be president. I'm willing to risk 95 cents to win 5 cents or whatever. 

01:01:20 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I don't remember the exact race. 

01:01:20 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I mean, they changed obviously over time, but that was like a crazy market for a stretch of time. On betfair, right, yeah, yeah. 

01:01:23 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Or there was betfair and then poly market was the, the huge one where there was, like this, massive, massive whale I remember hearing about that, which was like the the election was over, but yet people still thought there was a chance of an overturn. 

01:01:34 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, I gotta read it's interesting rules house rules. 

01:01:37 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
The game's not played it by a certain date. Yeah, house rules always. Sorry, go ahead, peter. 

01:01:41 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
And that's what's interesting about the betting markets and some of these exchanges and different things, and obviously there's different legalities where we are, so just do your own research on that. But like those markets can be so much different than like other huge, huge markets which you assume are like way more efficient. It's like your stock stuff, like that was probably easy to go out and find like good not not easy, but like you could find reliable data and like do the work and like actually realize like you have a real edge. You know like it's not just like a lot of speculation, like you can actually quantify this stuff yeah, no, like at one point we were doing. 

01:02:12 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
And then we're like wait, like we're getting like plus 800 and this is is roughly 50-50. This is hitting every other day, right now, that's crazy. Yeah. 

01:02:21 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
The things we did to bet during COVID man. I mean, I remember betting on Bales with the push-up competition as well. 

01:02:27 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
That was a good one, kanish. 

01:02:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Kanish, who couldn't do 150 push-ups in 15 minutes. 

01:02:32 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
But remember, mess like mess and this was on the wrong side of that one oh, kanish got. 

01:02:37 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
This was actually he's tried to get those videos removed from the we're not talking about the bails bet here. 

01:02:42 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
We're talking about the kanish bet, okay so did you know about that oh no, I'm talking about the bails thing, but I I'd actually I think I heard about this, but so tell the story was okay so. 

01:02:51 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So bails did the bet where he did whatever 2400,400 push-ups. 

01:02:54 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
In a certain amount of hours 12 hours. 

01:02:56 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
He won. So he won the bet. And then Joey Kanish posted a video. You know, good friend of the program, joey Kanish, the Hammer HQ Hit the books HQ. Anyways, kanish put out a video just like pumping out a couple like random shitty push-ups Four of both and he's like I can do whatever push-ups. And then someone challenged him if he could do 150 in 10 minutes. And then Dave Mason put out a line for it. 

01:03:22 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Oh, I love this. 

01:03:24 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
And it was born and he put out the line as like favorite to not do it. But super badly mispriced Kanish ended up ripping off like I think he ripped off 30 half-ass and then eked out another 15. 

01:03:38 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
He was legitimately at the point of muscle fatigue. He could not pump out another. Even his shitty form push-ups, he could not pump out another one. He tried and his muscles just failed on him. 

01:03:51 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Oh my goodness, if you go look at his Twitter mentions. Anytime he gives out a pick and it wins, there will still be someone in the mention saying like slowly getting back the money I lost in the pushup bet. 

01:04:03 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Oh, I love it. I love it To me. That's another thing. Like I really hope that there's more just like prop bets and of course, it's really hard to have bets on those things. You need to have trustworthy people, you need to have real markets. But like there's nothing better than a good prop bet and there's nothing better than a physical prop, especially if it's a situation where someone can train for it and like it's a win-win regardless. Like I did a pull-up competition versus Bales. I was getting like plus 20 or something like that. I lost but I really won because I got like in way better shape. 

01:04:29 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I did all the pull-ups like and I'm not saying like- obviously it's things to lose, but like I love profits like that, okay, so on this topic, I gotta ask. I gotta ask if we didn't put in the notes apologies the billion dollar flip. So it's a question that we've asked to a few guests. I think, uh, none more timely than than to ask it to you right now. So essentially, here is this scenario you're presented a coin, you flip it, you call it in the air. If you win, you get $1 billion, if you lose, you get zero. At what amount of money would you like accept to forego the opportunity to flip? So, like, I don't want to flip, just pay me out, whatever a certain amount. So, obviously, your expected value being 500 million on that flip, go ahead. 

01:05:19 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I think the majority of people should probably take like $20 million or something guaranteed, or $10 million guaranteed, like something that just like is financial freedom for you and your family for the rest of your life. I think that's probably correct for almost everyone. Um, for me, I definitely, oh man, I'd probably take like 150 million, 100 million and not flip. 

01:05:44
See, here's the question, because I don't see it, the distinction for me is, like for sure, like the only thing past, like, let's say, like 50 million or 100 million, like yeah, it'd be fun to have like a couple of cool houses and like maybe some more travel Like a jet is like the main thing that you'd want. 

01:06:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
This is Johnny's thing. It's got to. This is why, like, that's mainly the thing you'd want. 

01:06:05 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
So like if I could just guarantee I had a private jet and again, I know there's bad things, it's bad for the environment, but like from a freedom perspective, which is like one of my top top values, like I just want to do what I want when I want with family, friends, et cetera. If you can just lock in a jet and a hundred million dollars plus, like your life's amazing. So like to me the difference to like a billion, like I don't, like I wish I had an answer where I'd say, hey, I would flip up to 500 million because the chance at a billion, if I had a billion dollars, dollars, I could make this change to the world. This would be the best thing for society. Like it'd be amazing if I could do that. But I I don't. 

01:06:40 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't think that I have that answer right now so I would take like this is so close to the answer that johnny gave that I'm actually getting shivers from from listening, you got to listen to my answer from like a year ago. 

01:06:51 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
It's this I've never heard your answer, for my answer is this is this I really want a private jet, but if I flip and win the billion, then I could do something that changes the world. So my answer is in all likelihood I'm flipping, but it's not a good EV move, it's a negative EV move. 

01:07:06 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
But the experience I don't think I'd flip it A hundred million. I don't think I could flip, especially right now too. I'm about, about to have a second kid and like I got, like I feel like I'm I'm very fortunate and there's a lot of opportunity and things can go relatively well. But like man, to just like guarantee all of our family being totally set up, and like with 100 million dollars I definitely would have either access to a jet at all times or a jet like it'd be really hard to turn that down so so, yeah, fair enough. 

01:07:34 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I feel like, though, if you lost the the, the millie, like if you lost the flip, like it will put you in, like like I'm not saying you specifically, I'm saying in general if someone lost the flip, it would put you into an emotional downswing spiral. So that's the only part I haven't factored in yet is, like can I overcome like? That'd be so hard can I overcome the trauma of losing that flip? But whatever. 

01:07:58 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Also winning the flip for some people might be the worst thing that's ever happened to them. I mean, you guys have all seen this lottery stuff where, like people like get depressed, they lose family, like crazy stuff happens to people who come into money that have no idea what to do with it, like there's a huge downside to like getting a ton of money in certain ways, that that's a small, that's a small consideration. Obviously you want, like obviously you want it, but I'm just saying like a lot of lottery winners end up having miserable lives. 

01:08:24 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So. So the question is, though it's like what is the least amount you would actually accept? And the reason why I think a hundred million is a bit of a weird answer is, like a hundred million can't be the least you will accept, Because if you're willing to accept, a hundred million can't be the least you will accept, because if you're willing to accept a hundred million, then you're definitely willing to accept 99 million. You know what I mean. So there's like there's no way you're like no, I'm flipping If it's 90, if it's 99, I'll flip, but a hundred I'll take. Right, it's a weird, a weirdish number. So maybe your number is like enough to calculate that you can get the private jet. 

01:08:56 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, I guess in theory I'd consider other numbers. Yeah, maybe like 99, I'd probably take. So yeah, I was just like off the cuff thinking about it, but yeah for sure I wouldn't flip. I wouldn't not flip for like 10 million, and obviously you can't go buy insurance or just like the flip. 

01:09:12 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
It's a hypothetical scenario. Yeah, it's a hypothetical. 

01:09:15 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
So like, like, like for like 5 million, I would definitely not do it. Like no chance at this point in time, like zero, like I would absolutely rather flip for it than take 5 million. 10 million, I feel like I would flip, but man, at the time it'd be hard. 50 million is probably a good question, like I feel like up until that point I'd probably still want to flip for it. 

01:09:40 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Because the cool thing is, if you did win and you had a billion dollars, I mean you can make real meaningful change. Agreed, the reason why this question came to be was really like, uh, the youtuber, mr beast, asked it on. He did like a series where he would ask people like, hey, do you want um? There he'd be like yo, do you want a thousand dollars or do you want to flip for, or do you want to flip for ten thousand? And like everyone was taking the thousand and it kind of put it into perspective for me of like, okay, obviously, in that scenario it's like, hey, I'm not gonna take a thousand bucks, like I'll flip for the 10k. And then you like scale it up and you're like, all right, 10k or 100k, well, I'm gonna flip for the 100k. 

01:10:10
And then you keep scaling up and then I feel like the billion, the like the billion is the first one where it's like would you take the hundred million or would you flip for a billion? And that if the question was phrased like that, I think it's even it's even more of a crazy one. Where it's like, damn, like at the previous version, like one million I'm not going to take, I'd rather flip for a hundred, right, I think you'd agree, given that you said you wouldn't flip for five. You'd flip instead of five. So it's crazy, but puts it in the perspective on like also how fortunate that we are that I guess we are in a spot that we don't need to. You know, worry about, like a day to day, where the next meal is coming from and a lot of people do, but it's just crazy in terms of mindset, like how that works. 

01:10:51 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
If your net worth is zero and you're earning potentials, let's say like 65 grand a year or something like that, like what's the appropriate number where they shouldn't flip, and it's probably really low like a half million bucks or a million bucks, even 100 grand. 

01:11:02 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, maybe even 100 grand, I don't know well, look at, look at the guy this week who won that um 72k parlay. 

01:11:10 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I don't know if you guys know what I'm talking about the first, first hitter or any time touchdown did I not give you dalton schultz first td it was, did I? Not also give you um. Who was that? Who was the other one I gave you on the in the eagles game? Oh yeah, we got dallas goddard. 

01:11:27 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Gave him two first hitters this weekend, by the way, peter, but it's all good he also ran oh baby, you guys are hot, he ran into the studio about five minutes before the start of the Cowboys 49ers game, asking me if I wanted to bet Brett Maher not to miss an extra point at minus 300 with him. He conveniently left that part out of the story. 

01:11:44 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
He missed his first extra point. Yeah, with the logic of, by the way, I'm projecting him to attempt under two extra points. And he did, but obviously he missed it. 

01:11:58 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Anyways, sorry, what were we about to ask? Uh oh, the guy that won the 72k parlay right and he posted. He posted on twitter a picture of it and he said life-changing money, right, and immediately twitter, the most toxic of platforms ever. Bunch of people are like what are you talking about? This isn't life-changing money and this is like. This isn't constitute life-changing money. He's like well, guess what? I had like 100k of student debt. I can now pay off three quarters of it. To me, that's changing my life considerably. And like to each their own right in terms of of what you evaluate as as life-changing money. It's kind of just like a tangent, but it popped into my head because I I did see that today. I'm like this poor guy has to defend himself for so disrespectful. 

01:12:36
Of course, a couple hundred bucks could be massive $5 to win or $4 to win, 72k, something like that, yeah. 

01:12:43 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Some people can't afford to put their next meal. Their debt is swallowing them and it's just so disrespectful. I mean, there's a lot of value in Twitter, but there's Especially gambling Twitter. 

01:13:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
There's just a lot of people that I wish they would take a more positive side of things, but that probably won't happen. Well, let's keep it there for a second, because I've been involved in gambling twitter since 2010 and then I kind of got involved in dfs twitter for a bit as well, and forever there's been like this clash and this rivalry, um, and like this hostility, um, empire maker versus rufus comes to mind right away when they had that sort of beef going on, but there's been many over the years. There's so much overlap, like if you draw a Venn diagram of the betters and DFS guys. There's like so much overlap, but for some reason or another, I think people identify as either a sports better or either a DFS player. Can you explain to me why there is so much hostility between these two communities, or if there even is? Maybe your perspective is different from mine, but I see this pretty regularly and even in 2023, I still see this pretty regularly. 

01:13:50 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, it's just a combination of FOMO and arrogance. I mean, people are fearful that they're missing out somewhere else, that they don't know, and so then they project against it. And then there's the arrogant side of things and the reality is, you know, you could apply both things to either one and, like you can probably find some edges. Like, if you're a great dfs player, you can probably go out and figure out a way to beat props. If you're a great, better, you can probably find some edges in dfs, especially in the early days where there was like that's where I saw even more of it and like I always was like man, what are you guys doing that are on the dfs side? Like being arrogant to these big sports bettors? You really want to get like haralabob and some of these people like playing dfs. Like these guys are way more sophisticated than what you're doing on the dfs side. 

01:14:28
So I, to me, it's always been pretty foolish to think there's opportunity in both markets and, uh, in general, like what are you gaining from? Like trying to bring someone else down? Like it doesn't make any sense to me. So, but none of that stuff has ever made sense to me and I get it. Twitter, you know, yeah, people love to do that. 

01:14:45 - Zack Phillips (Other)
And. 

01:14:45 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I get that there's shit posters and trolls and people that, like that, are really smart and funny and like there can be a good place for that. 

01:14:57 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
But in general, I think most negative stuff on twitter is just a lose-lose. Yep, I'd have to agree with that. I, I would like to uh, potentially, if rob has even listened to this uh on on peter's uh podcast. That I mean, it's not, it's not super active, but uh, the three donkeys podcast they play a game they play a game at the end, usually called laudan. 

01:15:10
I'm wondering if we could do one round. Would we be able to do one? Yeah, well, all right, we got to get peter to explain the rules for listeners and and, uh, just, you know, to brush up, and then we'll start around cool. 

01:15:20 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, so a lot of things. The the name of the game is guessing. Whoever you ask the question to what they think, what the actual right answer is irrelevant. If I asked rob how many stars are in the galaxy, which I think is a question I answered egregiously the right answer is irrelevant. But johnny and I would just be trying to guess what rob is going to guess. So that's the name of the game. Whoever lodden is, you're trying to guess what they think so it's a fun game. 

01:15:43 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So essentially we all reveal like our phones, with the number at the same time. 

01:15:47 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
That's what we did, yeah so if rob says a million and then peter says a billion, which is probably closer than and I and I say a two million than I, then I would get the point there you would win and the way we do on like real and there's really big numbers is the multiplier, because someone might be closer in terms of like the actual number but they're way off on like a multiplier perspective. Okay, so like the right answer was like 10 million and someone said 100 million but someone said a thousand. Right, like obviously the 100 million to 10 million is a bigger gap, but it's only 10 times differential, whereas the $1,000 and $10 million is. And maybe I did the math wrong there, but like you get my point, yes, completely get it. 

01:16:24 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, okay, so I guess we got to put you on the spot, peter, you're starting off, so I have to ask a question. 

01:16:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, pick who you want to ask to, and then I guess, uh, play, play one round. 

01:16:40 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
This is okay. This is a very scary one because you can't hide like no, you can't hide from it. It airs as is, of course. 

01:16:43 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, I don't care. I've looked like an idiot many times before, so don't worry okay, rob. 

01:16:48 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
How many people in the united states named mike made a bet in the last year? Okay, I won't look anything you're allowed to use calculators right yeah, I'm not looking at anything, I'm just going to my phone, I'm not googling, I don't know how would you look this up? Maybe figure out how many mics there are. 

01:17:06 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
The first thing I would look up is the population of the us. So I'm now estimating that in my head, but I'm not gonna give you any more information. You guys can, can. Can think it over. Um named mike can think it over. 

01:17:21 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Named Mike Made a bet In the year 2022. We'll just say that. 

01:17:25 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Keep it easy In this year. 

01:17:27 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Okay, mike, michael, any iteration of. 

01:17:35 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Mike. 

01:17:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Okay. 

01:17:38 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Hold up, you have to write it on your phone yeah, yeah, yeah, gotta open up. 

01:17:48 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't use notepads like everyone else does, but I'll. Okay, I got an answer. All right, I got an answer I'm gonna show. I said 250 000 67 000. 

01:18:10 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I said 1 million, but there's no way bro so here's the logic. 

01:18:12 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I don't think that's. I started off at 500k for what it's worth okay okay, so, okay. 

01:18:15 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So here's the, here's the logic. I'm estimating the population of the United States, which I don't know, but I'm guessing 350 million. Yeah, roughly. 

01:18:24 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, I think that's right Okay. 

01:18:27 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So from there I know that 20% of adults have made a bet in the past year. So I'm, I'm, I'm, now I'm, I'm. Deducing now what population of that is male? I'm guessing at least 90, so I use a 90 figure roughly. And then I think mike is probably the most popular name. So I did something like in the three to five percent range of adult males are named mike. 

01:18:51 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
That might be an overestimation, but that's with those calculations're roughly at going to be. One in every 80 people is named Mike. 

01:19:01 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't know. I mean, I think Mike is an extremely popular name. 

01:19:04 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
It could be All right, all right. Anyways, the name of the game is to get close to Ryan. Remember that the newer names are not of the adult population. 

01:19:16 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
yet I think we're all low. Michael is ranked as the fifth most popular in the name of the united states, with an estimated population of 4.13 million 4.13 guys named mike now what percentage of those are? 

01:19:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
are adults? Wait, but you have to go. 

01:19:32 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
21 plus population correct yeah you take roughly 20 your guess is probably pretty darn good. You know what, as old as the man, all right, I got one I would have guessed way under 4.1 million. 

01:19:42 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
That's why I kept going. I was like I thought there might be like a million or two million mics mikey, it's a. 

01:19:47 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
It's a popular name, all right, I guess. So I gotta ask uh, I got, I got one for peter, so mine would be how many keyboard keys on laptops only are there currently in Canada? 

01:20:10 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
In Canada. How many keyboard keys are there? These are really good. They get you thinking that's a. These are really good. 

01:20:17 - Zack Phillips (Other)
They get you thinking that's a really good one gets you thinking man I could really embarrass myself on my knowledge of canada here the other thing with the mic one is like you could think of populations, of percentage of mics in a certain area or number of mics. Like you might have way more mics in Philadelphia. 

01:20:38 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
More mics, more mics bet offshore. I'll say that right now. More mics are betting offshore. 

01:20:45 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
That's a great one. This is a great question too. 

01:20:59 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Just laptops, just only laptops. It also includes if you have a second laptop. You know what I mean. 

01:21:05 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Like it's not it doesn't have to be your active laptop yep, someone could have 10 laptops. In theory, yes, all right, I got an answer all right, my answer. 

01:21:26 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I just gotta um quickly count this because my uh, I'll put it on my phone as well, just so we you know that I'm not trying to to dirty you with uh, okay yeah, so all right, I went with uh. 

01:21:41 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So keyboard keys, I went with uh 1.125 billion wow, I went with 300 million wow, I'm terrible. 

01:21:51 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I went one or I went 12 billion, so I did some math wrong somewhere well, maybe not. 

01:21:55 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Okay, well, I'll walk you through. I'll walk you through it. I'll walk you through it. Okay, so what I did how many people live in Canada. 

01:21:59 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I don't know. I was guessing 50 million. I said 50 million. 

01:22:02 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So I went 36 mil. I mean I think it's roughly that. 

01:22:05 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I actually, I didn't even look this up. 

01:22:20 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I just assumed it was roughly 6 mil and then I went uh roughly so I think I did roughly. 

01:22:23 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Uh, based on the 36 mil, I did 15 million laptops. Oh, 50 million or 15 1 5. I went way low, so I I went way higher on laptops, which is where I made a mistake, obviously I went essentially almost like just in between one in between one laptop. 

01:22:34 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
One laptop for every like 2.5 people. 

01:22:37 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, because a lot of people don't have a laptop so my, my thing is this kids and stuff in canada, outside of, like, the major cities of provinces, you got a lot of that's top, not not what or no computer people, let's put it that way like yeah, see, I underestimated that if, if there's, like a way, higher percentage of people in Canada that actually don't even own a computer relative to other countries in the world, just because there's a lot of remote areas. 

01:23:06 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
People probably have less laptops now than what I think about because of phones and tablets? 

01:23:10 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I don't know. 

01:23:11 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I was thinking like one and a half with like work and people like, and I guess a lot of people, I just have desktops. I was I made a really bad assumption on how many laptops there were okay, no, no. 

01:23:22 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So wait, what did you assume? 

01:23:23 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
laptops per person I assumed, like one to, I thought there was like 100 million laptops and then I overestimated the keys. So I'm looking at my freaking thing and I guess 100 keys way more keys than the number scroller I get I. 

01:23:35 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I I guessed 100 keys, but like I don't even know how many keys there are in a keyboard, I think they're I. 

01:23:40 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I can't mine. It's like 15 times. They're all different, though. That's the thing if it has the numpad, true, true yeah, yeah, that's why the laptop yeah all right, I hope the listeners are enjoying this and, uh, no one shut it off yet, but we got one more to go, so I think that was my question to me. 

01:23:57 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
We need so I'll make you ask you a question, johnny. 

01:23:59 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
So rob asked me um, let's how many swimming pools are there in the united states? 

01:24:06 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
oh, that's a good one, that is a good one, and you could google that too, so we can confirm who's we can confirm that answer now we're're going to look like jackasses here. 

01:24:20 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I can't believe how many mics there are, and I way overestimated how many laptops there's probably like one for every four or five. Maybe Cell phones are taking over, like if you're a 12-year-old, you don't have a laptop, you just have a phone. 

01:24:31 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Yeah, and older people. Now they're on the iPads, that's it. 

01:24:34 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah. 

01:24:34 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I fucked that up so bad. 

01:24:35 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
And there's my father who refuses to get rid of his desktop. 

01:24:38 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
But also I personally have like four laptops. 

01:24:41 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
like just around I have three laptops at home yeah, I mean, I definitely came under budget, like I significantly underestimated. 

01:24:51 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Swimming pools. Does that count? Like a plastic little pool you get from somewhere. 

01:25:00 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Or does it have to? 

01:25:01 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
be like a pool that's dug in ground. What do you think let's? 

01:25:05 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
do. You can add any clarification you want. 

01:25:09 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You can make it as big as you want. Whatever clarification let's do like in ground, but it's not. 

01:25:15 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I don't want to say not just residential, but like community centers, hotels and stuff like that yeah of course it's a hot tub count. 

01:25:21 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Let's say, a hot tub counts. 

01:25:23 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Oh baby, that changes the answer. 

01:25:25 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
It's a lot of hot tub only. I like that, though that makes it more fun. 

01:25:30 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yes, Swimming pools, hot tubs in ground. Zach, you put an answer here. 

01:25:37 - Zack Phillips (Other)
I haven't, and I probably shouldn't, because I'm trying to search up, so I can get an answer for you guys. 

01:25:40 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Fair enough, I appreciate that Wow. 

01:25:53 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Okay, I have one number here that has come from three different sources and it's the exact same number, but I'm just trying to confirm exactly what it entails. 

01:26:02 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Okay, all right, yeah, appreciate that. 

01:26:03 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, even to use that as a rough estimate is fine my number's probably so bad a lot of people have pools in the states man, okay, confirmed that. 

01:26:33 - Zack Phillips (Other)
This number that I have here is, uh, for what you guys were looking at. 

01:26:37 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Okay, cool I can give my answer first. 

01:26:41 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I said 35 million okay, I said 16.5 million 7.3 million okay that's really close, no I, I'm both like 2x. 

01:26:57 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Well, you wouldn't you know, you're close, you're close. I'm sorry, I was thinking about the other way. 

01:27:00 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
You're, you're, you win yeah rob rob, won rob I was thinking we were asking rob, you won nice work so all all I did was think of a ratio that I thought worked, and I think one out of every 20 people, like being a pool or a hot tub for one out of every 20 americans sounds about right to me, so I lowered the household for me and then I I ended up going with one in every 55 americans. 

01:27:25 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Okay, you went one in 55. 

01:27:26 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Yeah, one pool per. I'm very interested in the actual number. Okay, wait we didn't. 

01:27:30 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So what was yours, peter? 

01:27:31 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I think it might be higher because of, uh, like all the plate, like all the businesses that happen. But I could be totally wrong. 

01:27:37 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Okay, okay, zach, wait, what was Peter again? 

01:27:40 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I was $35 million. 

01:27:41 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
So $35, I'm $7, and Rob is $16.5. 

01:27:44 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I'm definitely low $10.7 million Wow you nailed it, you guys nailed it, I went way too high. 

01:27:51 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Price is right rules, johnny, definitely. Either way, it doesn't matter. He's still closer. I was 7-3-3-3-3-3. 

01:27:57 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
You guys nailed it, I'm here. I should be closer than that. That was a lot of fun. 

01:28:02 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
All right, what a game? 

01:28:04 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
It is a really good game Play at home with your friends, pete. 

01:28:07 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Jennings, john Bales and Adam Levitan taught me this game indirectly via their podcast, which you can check out as well. Are you guys still doing the podcast? What's the deal with that? 

01:28:16 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Hopefully we bring it back. It got paused again and it's been paused multiple times, so I hope one day we actually get in the cadence and do it, because it's a lot of fun for us. 

01:28:24 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Do you guys have a producer and stuff? 

01:28:26 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
No. 

01:28:27 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
See, that will probably keep you honest. There's a lot of moving pieces. 

01:28:33 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I love doing the pod but yeah, hopefully it comes back one day. We we have. We need to put an infrastructure and stuff in place to keep us honest for sure. 

01:28:40 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
Is there anything else? I know you've been very generous with your time, Peter's anything else you wanted to touch or, uh, any other businesses you're involved that you would like? 

01:28:47 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
to um, you know, promote. No, this has been super great. I'm really happy we got to talk through all this stuff. I could talk to you guys for hours and hours. All similar backgrounds, love this space, love what you guys are doing and, yeah, bet stamps been awesome. People always ask me where they can track their bets and, like, you guys have absolutely crushed it and we built that at action network and I think you guys have done the best job by far. So kudos to you guys. 

01:29:06 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Appreciate that it's awesome what you guys are building I should have asked, instead of swimming pools, how many pairs of sneakers you thought jennings had. I thought I think that would I, because I honestly have no idea but he still guesses because it's. He still guesses because it's own, because he's guessing what you would think yeah, that would have been a good one I've been slowing down. 

01:29:25 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
You've been slowing down bought more sneakers in 21 and 20 yeah, bear market on bear market gotta cut it. 

01:29:32 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Cut down the sneaker, buy it wait, I got a question for Peter. I'm really into the sneakers too. What's your favorite pair that you have? Not like the best, not the most valuable, but like your personal favorite pair you got. 

01:29:43 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Yeah, I'm obsessed with the Jordan ones. Now the lows for golf and for wearing out. So, uh, some comments, some colorway of those. There's some black and purple ones I like for golf and for wearing. Uh, there's definitely like a cooler. There's some sneakers I like aesthetically more. I really like the fours I hope in the 11s, but just for like day to day golf and going out, I'm really into the ones. What about you? 

01:30:05 - Zack Phillips (Other)
Well, mine are the Air Max nineties. I don't know something about the Air Max nineties. I just that was the first pair of like legitimate like sneakers that I went out and bought myself, and then that, just since then, I like have an affinity for the air max 90s yeah, I love those. 

01:30:20 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I have some like, uh, wine cork. Air max 90s are really cool. They're golf shoes. I've never worn them. They're like, yeah, it's, yeah, I don't know. 

01:30:28 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I love them too that conversation is so far out of my comfort zone. I'm like, I'm like the old, old, old man. 

01:30:34 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
I'm not a big sneaker head, I mean listen, I know what they are, but I'm not a massive collector myself. But I'm like only a bit further ready, don't worry, rob. 

01:30:43 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Peter, we have one last closing question is it okay? 

01:30:46 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
there you go. We have you heard it there first. We have one last question for you, and it's the question we ask all of our guests if you could go back five years and talk to a previous version of yourself, what advice would you give? 

01:31:00 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
I would tell myself to definitely keep things more simple and stay in your lane, focus on what you really know, and that's why I'm, as we talked about throughout in the pod like really focused on the sports stuff, especially in the short term. So I think that's probably the biggest mistake I've made over the last three, four or five years is just thinking I know more about things. I don't know anything about Good advice. 

01:31:24 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
I, uh, I would agree with it. It's not a matter of whether I agree or not, but I, I would offer that same piece of advice to others as well, and I, I liked that. That was something that was unique, that we haven't heard before. On circles off here. 

01:31:44 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
His name's peter jennings. You can follow him on twitter at csuram88, not c serum. What do? 

01:31:46 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
you say what? 

01:31:47 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
did you say ram c serum? 

01:31:47 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
uh, hopefully I can buy at peter jennings one day. Yes, that's a no brainer. What's? What's the hold up? I've been trying one day. If you're out there, if you're listening to this pod at peter jennings, please hit me up so I can get away from the twitter handle we got. 

01:32:00 - Johnny Capo (Co-host)
We bought the bet stamp one, the app bet stamp, off a guy who had it and we I dm'd him and I turned notifications on and like a burner account. Finally he ended up dming like buddy, like well, like what do you want for this handle? And he's just like have it for free, man, like mate. He's like have it for free, mate, if you're ever in uh, if you're ever in ireland, buy me a, buy me a pint. I'm like done deal. That's amazing. So you got to get the same luck with um, with peter at peter jennings I love that. 

01:32:25 - Rob Pizzola (Co-host)
Support his brands as well. Unabated sports. Establish the run. The solver sports underdog fantasy, better pool. Thanks peter very much for joining us here on circles off I had so much fun. 

01:32:36 - Peter Jennings (Guest)
Thanks, guys, see you guys.