00:00 - Joey Knish (Host)
coming up on today's episode of circle back there's people that are running what you would call, like these, discord syndicates, but not just doing it as like a couple of morons get together and doing a play, like doing it on a more professional level it's effectively a person that will be scammed in every industry, in every facet of life that he enters.
00:21 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Forget sports betting.
00:22 - Joey Knish (Host)
This guy's doomed I've been in the fucking trenches for eight years. You motherfuck eight.
00:26 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Yeah, so I love how Circles Back has a nice mix of, you know, funny segments and then some serious segments where the audience can really get something out of it.
00:37 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Disclaimer the content presented in this show is intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any individuals or organizations mentioned. Statements made about public figures or entities are based on publicly available information and are not intended to harm or defame any person or business. This show relies on fair use of social media posts, which are presented in good faith for the purpose of commentary and criticism. Viewers and listeners are advised to form their own opinions.
01:31
Circle back here on the circles off channel. It's part of the hammer bed network and presented by cal sheet. This is the show. You know it. It's the show we go through the latest and greatest news from gambling twitter, and gambling twitter, as we'll learn today, captures a lot more than just sports, and we're going to be doing it today with your normal friday cast. You have myself, the host, jake regmania. I am your host here on circle back. I'm also a creator and a producer with the hammer betting network. We have in the bottom left corner chris deer. Kiss at fluff, no lied. One-time contest winner, professional sports better. In the bottom right corner of the screen we have joey knish, co-host of the hit the Book show here at the Hammerbag Network, our college football show, and then, in the top right corner, as our fourth for today, we have Porter of BA Analytics. Porter, nice to see you again. How are you doing? Are you ready for a fiery show we have on our hands?
02:14 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
today I am. I am Today's the third time I've been on the show, which is one more time than I was on your previous show, circles Off.
02:26 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
All right, right, hey, setting some records here today and hopefully, hey, you've been a good guest. I think so. Hopefully we can keep that going in the future. We're going to jump into our first topic for today. It is the photoshop guru, because this one was pulled up by eric polly.
02:36
Eric polly has done content previously for the hammer on the forward progress channel, where we do our nfl content, and he posted a job posting on Upwork, which is a freelance website, and he says spotted on Upwork and the title for the job posting is graphic artists needed to replicate sports book ticket design long-term opportunity, and goes on to describe the exact job which is as it is shown there. It is literally to Photoshop fan duel tickets, I would think, in order to make it look like the person has bet more and won more money than they actually placed originally. And then he actually showcased another posting from the same user. This one is about putting together parlays for the user in question, creative angles to create parlays, which I also found pretty funny. But focusing on the first one, photoshop design uh, weston at guy in cornfield said hashtag circle back time to send the newest intern on undercover operation to investigate who the fraud behind this is so uh. If only the hammer had enough resources to get somebody to apply for this job.
03:42 - Flup (Host)
Unfortunately, we cannot wow so, jake, if you didn't do your actual job as as a reporter and investigative journalism journalism you, you should I have applied for this job and uh gone behind it.
03:53 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Maybe I should have. Uh. We have adam levitan, who said social media is ruining society. Part 6900, uh, 6 6 69, 420. Excuse me, all right, let's jump into it. There's a little bit more to this segment in just a moment here. We'll start with you, porter, as our guest today. What was your reaction to seeing this for the first time?
04:12 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Man, you know I'm really pro-capitalism but damn, this is a dark turn it takes in the sports betting world when you take it to its endgame.
04:20
You know, these guys have just figured out what casuals like these guys have just figured out what casuals like Serious shows are not getting enough push people watching understanding the industry, and I guess this is the natural progression of what happens when people don't understand anything about sports betting and they fall for this stuff. What's crazy is everyone knows a lot of these guys post this stuff and I love the part that says expert level attention to detail, because I can't tell you how many times they Photoshop this stuff and then they got the wrong payouts, which is literally like, if you're going to scam the people, like let's do it right. Right, if you're going to put all this work in, but I guess maybe that's why these guys need to hire somebody to do it for them. I mean, yeah, I mean honestly, look, the truth is, if you're like a person out there and you're falling for this stuff, I know I'm supposed to feel bad for you and that's supposed to be the sentiment.
05:14 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
But somebody's got to feed the ecosystem. Yeah, what's?
05:18 - Flup (Host)
your take on this one Flop. Are we convinced this is actually like real, like it could not be. Like someone actually just like pretending to post this and farm like some content out of this, or I mean, this is just so absurd. Like this is this almost like illegal or fraud. Like it's just like admitting like fraud on the on the internet. Like just seems like so ridiculous. Like surely someone is just making a joke about this and not actually this isn't a real job.
05:46 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
On your first point, I will say in the posting here this person has been a user on Upwork since January 13, 2019. They have hired 52 people and currently have 17 active employees. It'd be quite a scam to have been able to execute it to such a degree, so I would favor this is. This is very real and somebody is actually trying to do this. On the topic of fraud, I'm not so sure how that would work.
06:17 - Joey Knish (Host)
I genuinely think now, much like how Porter runs a betting syndicate Fluff runs a betting syndicate. Like how Porter runs a betting syndicate Fluff runs a betting syndicate no-transcript. They're doing their own marketing. They're hiring people like this to Photoshop tickets and it's almost like you know what I don't know the Parlay Queen and those people did that. They walked so these people could run and now it's become like an actual industry where it's fun. You will get into it.
07:02
I seen the slide where you know the the our friend chili bets has, as you know it was got caught doing this and I, you know, when I tweeted about it, some people were like you know, in the comments, like you know, don't get high on your own supply, and that type of stuff where I don't even know if this person is I'm not going to dock, but someone I don't know if it was true, but somebody posted like is who he actually was in one of the comments. I don't think this person is even like a gambler, like that's at all in any capacity. Their entire thing is they're probably working with a group to create these fake parlays, sell them out, and now it's like that's basically like our small business or our company. Um their startup.
07:47
Yes, yeah, literally right and so kind of horrifying. It's got to that point, but I think this is where we are now in. This is like the next we're all used to. We talk about in the show ras and some of the big you know pick scale. That shit is be fucking dead. This is the future wave of pick selling because it's it's. The churn is incredible. You're going to get a lot more like buyers because of the lower price point. It's more. What your rec better wants now is SGPs and big parlays and I think to Porter's point like this is the future of pick selling, which is kind of disturbing, but also this is where it's going.
08:28 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
It seems like, sorry, go ahead, flop, you go first, hasn't it always been like that.
08:31 - Flup (Host)
Like I'm looking, I was looking at some of those like old commercials or like that, you know they shot, like they're like the record, like the 14 and two, the last like two weeks or whatever. Isn't that kind of thing where they have like a bunch of guys and then like whoever's hot, like that's who gets promoted? This is just the same. This is just like a different flavor. Now, this is the net.
08:50 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
It's not the. This is not a different flavor, this is a new level. This is people who have decided that the sports part doesn't really matter, it doesn't matter how good your record is. It matters your skill of convincing the audience that whatever it is that you're showing is exciting them to join along their journey. It's like kind of like this it's how you hype people up in a weird community aspect. You know, yeah, whether you're using like an attractive girl or using crazy pics or using parlays, but the value of the pic it's like no longer really that important it feels like the the natural evolution of every scam kind of gets to this point where you do it at such a scale and at such a level.
09:28 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I don't know how I never really saw it to be at this level for for sports betting, but based on the evidence that we have here, it kind of is trending that way. And just on the topic with chili bets sorry, I just want to go through this chili before you go again. Um, the Chili Bets thing was. The user for Chili Bets accidentally posted a screenshot of a FanDuel ticket with nine cents having been wagered to win $1.43.
09:55 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
No, no, he used a boost. He used a boost. You have to understand he used a boost, he used a boost.
10:02 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Bet nine cents on an account with $12.10 on it. Kanish, you said, this is a person with 30,000 subs on Dub Club who won't even bet their own stuff for $1. So you go ahead.
10:18 - Joey Knish (Host)
Well, I mean, that's a thing Like this guy, as we were saying, he's not a better, he's just doing like he's throwing $10 in an account so we can create these for $0.05 or $0.10, get the screenshot, doctor it up, just made a air and fucked up and I will appreciate, like I've gone to some of his posts, since people are like just burying him in every post so which is?
10:49
entertaining. Bullying is a you know, a positive there, but it's a lot of the holes that you could poke in your old school. Touts doesn't get clv record tracking and all that kind of goes out the window with this new level of tau where there is no clv and sgps they've solved it.
11:08
You can lose a hundred in a row, yeah, and then be like, oh well, we're kind of like no, the next one's like it, or you're. You have like six different people just spamming the chat and like somebody's bound to hit one at some point.
11:22 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
They have solved the old school issues of selling picks. They have solved it. This is it. You know what? Not all the posts are actually dogging him. Some of the posts say so what if he only bet nine cents? It won.
11:36
It's like really crazy stuff and you know it's interesting because it's hard to put yourself in the shoes of whoever's writing that kind of stuff, because it's almost unassociatable. It's effectively a person that will be scammed in every industry and every facet of life that he enters. Forget sports betting. This guy is doomed, and it's not one guy there's lots of people like this, that's scary, that kind of shows you society as a whole.
12:01
So it's like I'm not sure this is that much different than like the evolution of maybe like a boiler room for stocks. It's just like this natural. And this has actually solved all the issues of when sharp people attacked outs for bad records, for all these CLV. They've kind of solved the game.
12:24 - Flup (Host)
Now it's just a question of turning over enough people that you know, can they get to join along their you know, donkey ridiculous scamming journey and, like you saw, with like the upwork, um, like post what their strategy is. And this is my favorite part of it where they like, they'll put out like a list of like liens or like what their analysis has said, and it's like 20 home runs or like 20 touchdown scores. Then they'll do every combo of parlay of that for $0.09. Give a couple out in the Discord if they all brick but one of their combos hits. Look, if you just played it correctly, it's like free, like massive round robin, that they don't get the negatives if it loses but if it does win they can post a slip. It's pretty smart, to be honest, and it just makes it work.
13:07 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
There's another level to that, because now it's effectively the user who's missed a play. Well, it's your fault, not my fault. It's your fault for eating it One of these 482 million combinations that are possible.
13:18 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Yeah, just one of the ways that pick sellers can scam you in this space, and we'll highlight a few others over the course of the video that we have here today. And speaking of pick sellers, we have a new user in the pick seller game, grp wins, who started 0-5 in his pick selling journey on NFL sides. He said special alert. Tomorrow morning I'll be making two big announcements in one video. The announcements were, first of all, grp is retiring from sides on the NFL, started 0-5, lost his mojo, is retiring from NFL sides. But the second big announcement was he is selling his secret formula, his secret formula, to betting.
13:58
Jeff Feinberg of our Monday show, our Monday live show here on the Circles Off channel, says how much for the exclusive rights to the formula, just to sell to me. And George said $250,000. Yes, covers. Van Zaks said I'm a grown adult and I've watched the GRP retirement secret formula video three times in the last hour and read every comment. I need to see a psychiatrist Hashtag circle back. And George himself put up a poll the day before hour and read every comment. I need to see a psychiatrist hashtag circle back. Uh, and george himself put up a poll the day before. He said which one of these the reasons my big announcement tomorrow. Is it secret formula being sold? Is it joining wager talk? Is it making a grp coin or is it vegas employment? I probably would have laid minus 50 000 on the secret formula being sold, would you really?
14:44 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
I voted secret formula.
14:45 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
There's just no way. Why would WagerTalk hire him? Oh wait also, he can't figure out fucking an internet transaction, let alone setting up a fucking cryptocurrency.
14:57 - Joey Knish (Host)
He's perfect, he's old and he has a following. That's all.
15:01 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
The qualifier is yeah, well, the Phoenix is playing nice things for itself, but I mean, I personally don't think we're ready to hire him. So you think the formula? I think it had to be the formula. I think it absolutely, like no question, had to be the formula.
15:18 - Flup (Host)
Well, nice pass post, jacob. You know it's easy now that it's been leaked.
15:22 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I learned from my mistakes. Last week Was it two weeks ago.
15:27 - Joey Knish (Host)
Wait, it is the secret formula. Yeah, that's what it is.
15:34 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
In the retirement video. The first of two announcements was retirement from NFL sides. The second announcement was he's selling the secret formula.
15:41 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Perfectly logical. Perfectly logical order of events. Retire from betting the secret formula. Perfectly logical. Perfectly logical order of events. Retire from betting Sell formula. Perfectly logical.
15:48 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I'm retired from betting sides because I can't beat them, so buy my formula that also can't beat the sides that I'm retiring from betting. Literally in the same video we talked about the scams and the evolution of it and how people can build up these scams. I don't think GRP has quite figured out the secret formula to the scam of big selling or selling secret formula just yet. Porter, let's start with you again on this one Give your thoughts.
16:14 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
I mean, I love the transition of I don't win, so here's my formula that doesn't win. But to be fair, to be fair, that does follow perfect GRP logic, so like that's not actually crazy for him. Second of all, I wonder how many more iterations of stories that GRP can make up. You know he's an entertaining guy. The industry likes it. I don't know what to say. And, by the way, someone there he wrote $250,000. You know, in all honesty, his legal accounts might be worth 250 000.
16:49 - Joey Knish (Host)
Right, you know people have buried the lead on this. On the other show they did it. What about all the buyers of the pick package?
16:58 - Flup (Host)
they got five plays and then he only got, he only one person, only one person bought the picks.
17:05 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
It wasn't confirmed. I did say on the Hammer Daily today if he was willing to give it up after five plays. Nobody bought the picks, except for his buddy from high school. Nobody bought them.
17:15 - Flup (Host)
I honestly disappointed. I felt like a couple people would buy just for the trolls. Nobody wanted to mail him a fucking check.
17:22 - Joey Knish (Host)
Well, and thankfully they didn't, because the guy quit after a week and he went 0-5.
17:27 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
But like nobody's going to get I mean not that they're- probably he was teaching about bankroll management Right before he started betting. He lowered from $2,500 to $1,000. There's great lessons to be learned here. Actually, he saved money. What do you mean?
17:44 - Joey Knish (Host)
It's a tough, I gotta tell you. I hope grp had built up a lot of you know goodwill, a lot of following. I hope this doesn't go down a uh, a tough path, jeff. Jeff seems to have the most faith and I know he's met him and spent some time that he can keep reinventing and keep it going. I'm starting to wonder if the ship is taking on water.
18:06 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
This is what Jeff always says to anyone who asks him Jeff Feinberg. He says, just when you think you're out, he'll find some way to pull you back in. I mean, this brought a lot of people back in. This was massive news around gambling. Twitter made its rounds for sure. So I don't think we've seen the last of him. I don't know what what's up next. This. This was the first time in a while where I think, like in the grp meter of in on the joke versus like delusion. He broke the scale on the delusion meter, like in this video. As go ahead, I gotta ask this.
18:40 - Flup (Host)
So what do we think? Do we actually think that JRP believes his formula is worth $250,000? Like, is he being genuine or is he playing into the joke?
18:49 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
So there's like different levels. I think the $250,000 was more in on the joke, but I think within the video he said like now there's going to be people trying to hire me to be on their shows, whether it be the Hammer, which was directly mentioned in the video, whether it be you know another sport, a sports betting content network in this space. That actually felt like pretty real to me, like you genuinely thought cause, cause, we do the hammer daily show and we've we've considered getting his services. But, um, um, uh, I don't know if we can afford him.
19:29
Let's just say that I think that this is an example where he's not the Joe. I think he genuinely believes in his secret formula. I don't know it's a very strange combination if he's retiring from NFL size but he believes in his secret formula. I don't know it's a very strange combination if he's retiring from NFL size but he believes in his formula. I do think he thinks he's providing value. We've talked a lot about with pick sellers I mean earlier at Chili Bets that's, I would say, my opinion Clearly somebody who doesn't think they're providing value but are exploiting customers for money. That's what you could come to, that conclusion based on the evidence for grp. I believe he thinks he's providing value.
20:11 - Flup (Host)
I think that's that's the best way to put it but do you think he's, do you think he believes it's worth 250 000?
20:17 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
you know, I I think I was on the show wherever, whenever I was last time and I wasn't sure to the answer to these questions, I more and more believe that he genuinely believes what he's, what he's saying. I took a turn kind of the last episode that I was on where I was like but yeah, I do think he's. I think he's like a, a genuine guy, to be honest I agree.
20:37 - Joey Knish (Host)
What is?
20:38 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
what he thinks. It is what it is. You know, boomer generation. They got a mindset. They forgot to learn anything new in the last 30 years. I don't know. I think he's. I don't think he has any ill will, honestly, in him.
20:50 - Flup (Host)
And I just want to say, GRP, if you're listening to this, I think you're underselling your formula. It's worth way more.
20:56 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
You asked to buy it too, didn't you? You asked how much would it cost to not have him reveal it to the world. I think he thinks a sports book will buy it to get his system to help better price lines. I think that's what he's kind of thinking.
21:11 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Seriously, somebody out there, hire him already.
21:15 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Well, we'll see what the next development of the saga is, because I know for sure that it is not over in the slightest. We saw the poll that he made where he talked about what's this big announcement going to be. It reminded me of a place where you can bet on these sorts of discussions in unique markets, which is, of course, representing sponsor on Circles Off Kalshi and a market they have up. We'll tread carefully here. Discussing Film put out a tweet, as did many others. This is the biggest news, I think, in the world, or at least in the Twitter universe.
21:45
Right now, abc is indefinitely suspending Jimmy Kimmel's talk show from airing after his comments about Charlie Kirk. He said we hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who killed Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it. That got the show pulled from abc, for the time being has not officially been canceled, but cal she has a market up discussing which tv shows will be canceled. This year. Jimmy kimmel's show went from 10 all the way up to 56 in a market that, at the time I pulled this screenshot, has $166,000 of volume involved.
22:28 - Flup (Host)
What am I missing.
22:28 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Why is it not a hundred percent? Cause it could still be put back on. It's just been pulled for the time being as a precautionary measure.
22:38 - Joey Knish (Host)
Yeah, it wasn't canceled like done done September.
22:41 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Yeah, they can bring it back in.
22:43 - Joey Knish (Host)
Yeah.
22:44 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
So there the, so the traders and cashers suggesting there is now a 56 percent chance that it will in fact be canceled. Let's start with you. On this one, kanish, we'll give you the honors. That's dangerous. Where do you want to go with this one? You take the lead.
22:59 - Joey Knish (Host)
I'll say this and I'll try and leave out as much of you know leanings as I can. I think in today's era, by doing the Jimmy Kimmel show in the, at least in the recent past, is not an uber successful show. It's not a show that a ton of people seriously significantly like turn into on a regular basis, as all as almost all late night television now has kind of been on the downslope of of relevancy for a long time by and on that point.
23:30 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Sorry, quickly. The third on this list is late night with seth meyer's and 19, so yeah and so like.
23:35 - Joey Knish (Host)
By doing this you almost give him a little like I don't want to say mythical status, but but like it's kind of like a it reverts to.
23:45
There's so many different ways now to get your opinions and stuff out there you don't necessarily need network television, so it kind of makes him this like left wing. Now you know folk hero of I was so anti you know Mock and Trump that now they had to get me off the air and I can come back on youtube or whatever I want to and maybe gain like a larger following or more voice for my message than I originally would have. Because just the plain and simple thing is, like we've seen with mainstream news, so many people are not getting people used to go to late night for like their news, their laughs, all that. Nobody does that anymore except for, like you know, I don't know some people that are like 65 boomers same thing, yeah, so a lot of that is just kind of in the it's sun setting phase. So I don't know if this has the the impact that some people in that you know administration think it will in terms of overall like hey, you got to watch what you say.
24:43 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Well said Fluff. Do you want to add anything to this? I think Kanisha's very correct here.
24:48 - Flup (Host)
First, going back to the Charlie Kirk assassination, I thought that was ridiculous. Like, if you didn't like him, I assume that's why you killed him. That's actually. You're actually doing a net negative because you make him a martyr. You make him a martyr and then you go to the other side.
25:04
What a great way to remember Charlie Kirk, who was supposed to be the champion of free speech, by getting someone canceled for saying something you didn't like. It's like it's, so the hypocrisy is insane. And then Kanisha is completely right here you just make Kimmel a martyr. You just made him a martyr. His voice has become even more powerful, so this is doing complete disservice. It's also disrespecting um Kirk, in my opinion. I really, if you really believe, like and like Kirk, I don't think you would think that he actually wanted Kimmel to get canceled. Like okay. So Kimmel said like a lie on on television. So so many people have lied on television before, who cares? Maybe you should just issue an apology and move on. Like what is it? You don't need to get cancelled. And then but I also do wonder is maybe a cynical side of me is is the Kimmel camp actually pushing to make it seem they get canned this way to give them mythical status, because they already were going to get canned. The show's almost dead.
26:06 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Anyway. If he started like a podcast from here, it would be more popular, I think, than Green. I think he'd make more money out of it. Porter, anything from you.
26:16 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Yeah, a couple of points. So I actually live two or three miles from where it's filmed like every day there's literally no one back there anymore. They from where it's filmed like every day. There's literally no one back there anymore. That used to cause a ton of traffic. Uh.
26:26
Two, I saw him interviewed live by jay shetty and in all honesty, he's like a mess of a person, like very. Every serious question you ask jimmy, he always like reverts to some comedy thing. So like I've seen him in it's like. And then kind of chris kind of beat me to it, where the libertarian in me says how are you canceling him? That's not, it's like that message makes no, that would you know. That's not what charlie kirk was about.
26:52
Canceling. You know, like voices, it's about discussion. So this whole martyr part and they've just kind of yeah, you kind of turned him into bigger than he really was because he was completely I mean, he was fading. Actually, at the show that I saw him, a lot of audience members walked out and this is in la, a very kind of leftish uh city is. He was filming right next to hollywood and people were walking out and these were not right wingers in the audience. So I just want to like note like I watched this live and I was like, oh, that's, this is a famous guy. That's kind of lost his vibe, I think. But in general, being canceled, that's like that's ridiculous. And then what he said isn't yeah, like I didn't think it was that bad?
27:34
It's really not that bad.
27:36 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
He made a joke.
27:38 - Flup (Host)
He's a comedian, his land, some people could say we don't live in communist and like awful Canada. We live in communist and like awful canada. We live in america like. Free speech is a is a pillar of who we are, unless it, and like in sight.
27:50 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
You know it's it is. It is also guaranteed under law in canada by the way, I don't believe that.
27:56 - Flup (Host)
I don't trust you guys not laws you got me.
27:58 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
You barely have an army to enforce those things in our charter of rights and freedoms.
28:04 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
It's guaranteed under. Anyways, go ahead.
28:07 - Flup (Host)
But, like, the whole point of free speech is the speech that you protect is a speech that you dislike. I would make the argument that free speech entirely protects only hate speech, because that's the only speech that people would disagree with and the only speech that should truly be banned is one that incites direct violence and Kimmel's comment. Kimmel's comment did not direct incite violence, it was obviously just wrong.
28:33
But like, okay, you could just be a good excuse for the network to be like hey, your show sucks, it's a great time to cut you off yeah, and to see all these like, like, uh, conservatives and like people like cheering that it got canceled it's like you're the same people that like hated on, cancel culture and and like ripped on it and now you're like it, just like the hypocrisy is just insane to me. And there's this like account on twitter I've been following. It's like this you. It's like going through all the hypocrisy.
29:02 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
It's like people a month ago.
29:03 - Flup (Host)
Yeah, I saw that account yeah it's like a month ago cancel, culture needs to die. And then like we've gotten this many people fired, come on, this is ridiculous.
29:15 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Yes, well, if you do want to get involved with the market, you can go to Kalshi and get involved. There is a uh solid amount of liquidity, I would say, in a market like this and it and it's ever changing as well.
29:27 - Flup (Host)
on, the fly. As this is at the time, what's your first take here is would you buy yes or no on kimmel?
29:33 - Joey Knish (Host)
I would lean towards yes, it's canceled because I want a big order on.
29:38 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
No, I mean, that was my tell right there, you know what we could do. This is actually an idea brought up to me by uh roundin Isaac we have in the show. He wants us to start tracking our bets on these calci markets and over time we can see how we're actually performing. Would you guys care to make today the day on this market?
29:57 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
I wish there was a 90% market, because then I just pick that side, so my record looks great right, that's what the touts taught me.
30:02 - Flup (Host)
That's what the touts taught me no record units. Record a win-loss percent yeah win-loss rate.
30:08 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I would lean towards the yes. It gets canceled at 56%.
30:13 - Flup (Host)
Oh, I definitely like. No, then you two idiots are both in the opposite.
30:18 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I like yes.
30:19 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
I like yes too there.
30:20 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
All right, I will track it as that. 56% Myself, porter, kanish say yes, flup says no. We will see who comes out on the right side of this one. But if you do want to get involved, as I said, with markets like this, head over to Cal State with a link in the description or the QR code that is on screen. Right now I'll leave the QR code up for a few seconds, but at any point or video watching process, again, you can go to the link in the description, sign up with our link and also support the show in the process.
30:44
Now, before we go into our next topic, a quick word about our college football show at the Hammer. I might be biased, but this is, without a doubt, the best college football show around. Brad Powers and Joey Knish. Every Friday at 5 pm Eastern time on the Hit the Book YouTube channel. Come for Brad's insights and Kanisha's off-color remarks. They answer a ton of questions on all the games you're curious about, plus, best bets will be given out Once again tonight at 5 pm Eastern Time on the Hit the Books YouTube channel. Head to the link in the description to make it even easier to go check it out.
31:14
Next tweet comes from Josh at Call Cuss Service, who has done an interview here on the Circles Live channel. Before A good interview, might I add. I before Good interview, might I add. I would recommend checking it out. It says there is no secret sauce to being good at sports betting. Or could we say there's no secret formula? That doesn't apply to any other venture you choose in life. You either have to be creative or have discipline. If you have both, that's even better. Porter, you were a fan of this topic. Why don't you lead us off and give us your thoughts?
31:40 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Yeah. So I love how Circles Back has a nice mix of, you know, funny segments and then some serious segments where the audience can really get something out of it, and this tweet here is more on the serious side. So I can't tell you how many times people ask me oh, how you know what to do? How do you get better at sports betting? And, in all honesty, the skills that are required in sports betting, if you betting, if your goal is to make money at the end of the day, it's really this Effectively you need to grind, you need to have grit, you need to be there.
32:12
All of these things, like this industry is not just load up something, pray your model's good, hope things work out. This is a post that really gets to the heart of what it takes to succeed in this, in this business, and I love it when circles back does a little bit of these more. You can actually learn something genuinely valuable through you know some of the posts that people put on Twitter and I know a lot of times people use that joke I can't believe Twitter's free for funny stuff, but this is a good example of I can't believe Twitter's free for serious stuff.
32:45 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I will have. Good, I like stuff, but this is a good example of I can't believe twitter's free for serious stuff. I will, good, I like your take. I ought to correct it is circle back on the circles off channel. That's okay, I do like your take. Uh, we'll move forward. Anybody else? Uh, we'll go to you. Condition this one. What's your thoughts on this? Yeah, I agree.
32:56 - Joey Knish (Host)
You know what, when I before I really got into the things that you think, like what a recreational person would think that it takes to be good at sports betting or make money, are not it's very, as Porter's saying the skills from a almost like from a Joey corporate standpoint of there's people that I've come across in the office where it pings in my head of like this person could be a great sports better if they were, and they they're probably they might not even be a sports fan, so that's what, like the, the ball knowledge or any of that stuff doesn't necessarily translate in a lot of cases into being a great or a scalable sports better, uh, which I think is a lot of what the tweet is getting at.
33:37
So there there's that almost obsessive. You know, I think, what a lot of people that I meet at Bet Bash or on the show or we have on the show, they have kind of similar personality traits that that go along with either and you might be a little bit of a different, you know you might have your skill set, you know moving or originating or any of that, but there's usually a couple of core principles, one of them being, you know, pretty obsessive and not from you know people. That's why you can get into like the addiction discussion of do even successful people have gambling to like the core principles around, like making this almost like a a lifestyle and obsession. Is is kind of one of those that that gets, I would say usually makes the mark with a lot of people that I've seen that have made significant money in sports betting.
34:25 - Flup (Host)
And how about you flip? Yeah, I agree with that, and the part that makes me laugh is just like the addiction part. I actually agree that I think most professional gamblers that are successful in sports likely have a gambling addiction, except it's not a gambling addiction because they win. I've looked at some of those online things. If you hit a couple of these boxes, you have a gambling addiction. I hit a couple of those boxes. The difference is I actually win. I don't lose at sports betting, so I guess I'm not a gambling addict.
34:52 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I don't know. Based on what we've seen on this show, I don't know if we can say that that is true, the record it's written down.
34:59 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Where is it written?
35:00 - Flup (Host)
Yeah, I'm sure Matt Zilber has me tracked somewhere, but yeah, I think being obsessive and just having like discipline and, like you know, the tweet that Porter sent out like a couple months ago also is true. It's just like if you just are responsible and pay on time, you're like really like, really high up in sports betting. So I think those couple character traits are really all that matters.
35:26 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
All right Interesting takes there. Give us your take on this one in the comments down below. Help start the conversation and anything else you may have thoughts on over the course of today's episode. We'll go into the next section, which is the comment section. From the previous video we put up three comments that we liked from the previous show to discuss in the show today. Maybe one of yours today will feature in next week's show. The first one comes from at the only. Ty Crane says I'm in Canada but I'm still very curious about the whole big beautiful bill thing. What happened to you cash out early on a bet? Are they really going to tax you on the part that you lost on the cash out? Like what a wacky thing to think about. And I think overall I think like how is all this going to be tracked towards taxes? It seems like a big headache Flup. Maybe you can guide us a little bit here.
36:09 - Flup (Host)
This is a good question and I don't know the answer to it. I would ask your accountant. That's what I would ask. I'm not going to be able to tell you this one. It depends how you define a session. Is it by one bet, Is it by one quarter? One session, you one sitting down session betting one game? I don't know. So depends on that. Your accountant can tell you yeah here I think.
36:29 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
I think it's actually way harder and darker answer than what Fluff just gave. I think your accountant doesn't know every person who's hoping for an answer. They can't get a real answer because everything is settled by case law and eventually this somebody the way they record their sessions, the way they report their taxes. Oh and, by the way, case law takes years, by the way, this isn't like a one month that goes somewhere. So I think the really crazy answer to this entire thing is we are possibly multiple years away from having definitive answers on how any of this will actually pan out, and that's really scary because this, no matter how this plays out, I don't believe that someone can give you a legitimate this is more like constitutional scholar question than tax question at this point how it will come out in the law. Eventually the case law will decide so. So hold on. I just got depressed again thinking about this thing.
37:27 - Joey Knish (Host)
If these two don't know, I got no shot in hell of giving you a good answer. So I'll just say, we'll see.
37:37 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
We will see. The second comment comes from at Kenan Van Zyl. If I said that right, it says problem with VAR isn't VAR, it's the refs playing advantage in football soccer. This is why people gasp. Last week we talked about if there is too much technology assisting referees in sports. Var was something that we did discuss a little bit on the show and noted here. The problem with VAR is that the play continues and you go back after the fact to check in on it. Personally, for me, I don't really see that as the main problem with VAR. I more so see it. I see the bigger problem is how long it takes to come up with some of the decisions. I do agree. Like Kanish said it as well is like you know you score and there's that little bit of you that wonders. Okay, I'm really happy now, but is this potentially going to come back?
38:27 - Joey Knish (Host)
Do you have any thoughts on this one? Knish I it does. I mean it's a little annoying that it adds a lot more of as kind of the. The number one example of the scenario he's stating is like they just let kind of, unless it's super, super obvious. They let anything that's even fringe offsides just go and continue. And so you have a bunch of these scenarios where like, yeah, the guy's probably offsides, as it's happening, but you have to let the play go and then they come back and revert it. I agree with that. But at the same time you know for all, for those goals that weren't offsides, there's no real I don't know no real great solution there. I agree with them. It's annoying, but you almost it's. I guess I've, maybe I've become like numb to the fact that it's a part of the game now.
39:15 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Yeah. I mean if anything to me that it's more a feeling of the tech's not good enough, like shouldn't it just be like super, there must be like some in the future. There's no way this can't just be solved in like one second. You put like a GPS in the front of every player's shoe or something that they can't feel Like. It's almost like the tech's not good enough, so the tech is annoying.
39:34 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
So they have started using semi-automatic offside calls, but you still need to review it after the fact. I think we will one day get to a point where you're right it. I think we will one day get to a point where you're right it is as quick as that.
39:45 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
It's like getting rid of the umps and baseball eventually, like there's, it doesn't make well that we could do that.
39:50 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
We could do that tomorrow, that's that's the thing about.
39:53 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
What are they?
39:53 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
doing over there? Uh, flop anything from you before we go to the last comment? Nope, all right. Last comment comes from Bucket Lift says good discussion. I agree with Mr Peanut better about ignoring the spread while testing a single factor. This is in regards to Fezzik's zigzag method for week one NFL versus week two NFL. Mr PV had a lot to say there. The comment continues include and exclude the variable on your training data. Evaluate the error terms on the test data versus margin of victory, as Flub said, and the way the opening spread is produced is a dynamic process, not tethered to anything fixed year to year. However, you can evaluate the spread versus margin of victory. Uh where error terms with error terms too. Uh, fluff, do you want to take the lead on this one a little bit? Uh kind of address what the comment saying here I think.
40:43 - Flup (Host)
I mean, I think he explained it pretty well. I mean, all he's saying is like, if you just use a win-loss and you're betting a spread, it doesn't mean as much because, like, you need to know how much they're overperforming and you can test that by looking at what their margin of victory is compared to the spread, et cetera, et cetera. And that's what he's doing At least that's what I'm interpreting it as saying, and I kind of agree with him here, if I'm understanding it correctly, which is just, if you test based on margin of victory and how well they perform relative to the spread and what was perceived by the market, that's probably going to be more single and stronger single than just a raw win-loss like week one win playing a or week two team that won week one is playing team that lost week one I don't.
41:30 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
I don't know how much lines are affected in major markets by that. Uh, you know how much, how off you were. You know with the win. You know you're spread seven and a half but they won by 40. How much that affects it the next day? But it's funny because I I mean this is obviously like a technical question, but I always love it when a play is like a small market play is way off, because then I do feel like many times the line is influenced the next day by like somehow. You know I always hope when I'm wrong on a bet, I hope I'm way wrong, so I never really worry about. I'm more worried about win-loss and once that's gone I hope I'm really wrong so that somehow the line is affected the next time up. That's not really what he wrote here. He was asking a technical question though.
42:19 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
All right, let's move into our last full-scale topic. On the show today, we had a tweet brought up we're bringing it up here from Worst Contrarian back office at LARP Capital, at LARP Capital WC. This is how the cycle goes Every sharp sports bettor wants to become a trade-fi trader. Is it trade-fi? Is that how you say it, trad-fi? I think Trad-fi, sorry. Every sharp sports bettor wants to become a Tradify trader. Every Tradify trader wants to become a crypto trader. Every crypto trader wants to become a pro poker player. Every pro poker player wants to become a Sharp Sportsbetter. Flup, you have a lot of experience with these sorts of things, is this?
43:03 - Flup (Host)
truly how the cycle goes is shockingly accurate. It's. It's actually pretty funny like I started out as sports better, wanted to become sorry, I started as a poker player, wanted to become a sports better. Then, when I got to sports betting, I wanted to go to traditional finance and I stopped. I stopped there and I just stuck there. But when I was playing poker I know there's a lot of guys coming from crypto that found a lot of interest in poker. So like the whole cycle truly did like complete and a lot of people in traditional finance I do know really like crypto because they like the swings and they think they have a bigger edge because it's so swinging and they can do the technical analysis better. So it's actually very accurate and I found it very funny. How about you?
43:44 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
porter yeah, so I I think it's accurate for, like the new generation, because I my background is in trade fight. I was a pro poker player and then I became a sharp sports better and I'm not into crypto. I'm a bitcoin believer, but like this, all is the same kind of you know industry. This all makes sense to be. You know these things. They all have you know corollary skills that you need similar and how about you knish?
44:08 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
do you see this phenomenon take place?
44:11 - Joey Knish (Host)
it. It does seem like it's. I. This tweet got me a little bit like in the like, just to see with, like the, the blow up of almost like the, the prediction market thing of where it just now, like there's another element of how, um, like odds jam got a wave of people like the God of my left ear in the sports betting, and then, like there was then all these different products and there's waves like there's the, there's this new wave of better, that's like in their low twenties they like arbitrage or they do live betting, that type of stuff, and similar to this tweet where, like now, there's this new wave of prediction market better that like oh, because whoa, whoa, no, don't choose.
44:54 - Flup (Host)
Better they.
44:54 - Joey Knish (Host)
They're not getting, they're not betting, they're not gambling, they're predicting prediction market, predictors, that, um, that, which again great for the show sponsor, but just from from a general tolerance thing of people that can be annoying of like, oh, I'm the new prediction market theme guy, so yeah, it's the new row, yeah.
45:18 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
They're going to add that row after Sharp Sports Better. Yeah, it's going to be a new row on this list. It's going to be in between Sharp Sports Better and TradeFi.
45:26 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
All right.
45:26 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Prediction market guy.
45:28 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Maybe you got to make the updated version of this one day. Porter, that'll do for all the full-scale topics. Before we go into our next segment, we'll hear a word about something new to the Hammer. We know the Hammer is truly like a family Familiar faces, inside jokes and the one person that everyone likes picking on. Well, here's your chance to continue the conversation. Join our new hammer discord a chance for us to discuss all the games and news, share our favorite bets and interact with your favorite hammer creators. Discordgg. Slash hammer. To join now or visit a link in the description. Typically, we move into the chopping block now, but we have a little bit of extra coming in right now. Joey Kanish has requested a return fire. Return fire to fire back at the Monday show for something they said. You don't like, kanish.
46:15 - Joey Knish (Host)
Well, you know I'm listening to the show. It's Tuesday morning. I usually listen on Tuesdays, you know, at the at the work gym having a nice, you know a good time listen, and then I hear the CEO of the Hammer compare, say, oh, joey K, he's like, you know, the Simon Hunter of the Hammer. Mind you, this is the guy who's like his mortal enemy that he calls out on. Like a week he says mentioned Simon Hunter more than he mentioned he consults for sports books. That he's fucking. I can't stand him.
46:45
I can't stand listening to the guy all this stuff, but tries to phrase it in a way of like he's giving me a compliment, like, oh, simon, honey, he's, he's entertaining, he's a guy. I don't want one. Nobody. There isn't this line of people that like, oh god, I love listening to. If these, if they're out there and they're not related to him, please let me know where it is. And the other thing the guy has been fucking cosplaying a real sports better for fucking five years on twitter.
47:12
Whatever he's doing nowadays, I've been in the fucking trenches for eight years. You, motherfucker. Eight, ten years going at this stuff doing it, trying to get a real deal love. Like people need a fill joey k's down there at the casino, at the Detroit casino, at midnight on a Tuesday getting it done. Simon Hunter's in his fucking condo up there putting his feet up trying to make up a story about how he bet on the NFL. There is no. If people wanted to say that you know, maybe Simon Hunter's trying to be the Joey K or whatever he works now, I would say fuck, no, he's not. But me, simon Hunter of the. Get the fuck out of here. With that, we're putting the gun down now for a way, but you can take that and throw it out.
47:55 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
You brought the fire to return fire. I love it. I love it and I think you deserve to defend yourself because you're right, rob does not like simon hunter. Uh, that's great. Now we can move into the final segment on the show today, which is, of course, the chopping block stuff. We didn't think required full-scale segments, but we did want to discuss nonetheless, and we kick things off on the chopping block with Gabriel Marenzi at sports rates is best advice I can give. If you make $200 a day betting which is nothing you make 72 K a year, that's a real job. Don't try to be a hero. Make 200 a day and 72 K a year, that's not bad. Lol, fluff. Why don't you lead off on your thoughts on this one?
48:37 - Flup (Host)
I mean, this is just so ridiculous for so many reasons you you cannot like. There's variance, there's a ton of variance. You cannot just make 200 a day, like first of all. If you can make 200, why not just change it to 300, 500 like, etc, etc. And then also like, different days have different games, et cetera, et cetera. No talk of variance. What are we doing here? It doesn't make any sense.
49:04 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Actually, this is guaranteed to make you go broke because effectively, at a certain point you're going to have to martingale your whole bankroll to try and make 200 bucks, because eventually you're going to go 010 or 11 on a day. So actually, this best advice is guaranteed to make you make zero yeah, that that's honestly like.
49:19 - Joey Knish (Host)
I couldn't have said any better. This is horrible advice for people to actually like internalize. Because exactly if you don't hit that, if you go down 100 or 200 or 500, then you're like oh my god, I'm off pace, I'm not going to do it like I don't know, but there is no. As you said, there is no like very, you know it's. This isn't like working at fucking taco, but you get the same check every two weeks and you're going to that like no, that's not how there's going to be a massive daily, hourly, monthly swings up and down and eventually you know if you're doing the right thing. It nets out. But this, this, this is a. I agree like this is a really bad thing for people to tweet and I don't think he even realizes it, but that whole like I have to make $200 is that can put you in a real bad spot.
50:05 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
It's like going 0-5 to start the NFL season. It's variance, just, you hit a bad spell. At least that's what you would think. The next tweet comes from Spanky. He says I apologize to all of our free basic users. We kept a free version of our product available for three years. There are just way too many of you free guys to make it financially sustainable. This is in regards to Spot Odds, an odd screen where it said due to limited resources, effective Wednesday, september 17th, spot Odds will no longer be offering a free basic membership. Kanish, there was some backlash to this. There was some support to this. What's your stance on it? I gotta tell you.
50:45 - Joey Knish (Host)
I think you do. I'm a little surprised by the news. I do think it makes sense to have a totally free and you can put whatever stipulations you want on it massive delays, only certain access to. But to not have a free product that actually you know, I don't know. I feel like that kind of draws some people in just to have like a user base. That's kind of frequently always traveling to your thing. Maybe it's causing more issues than I know about on the background or the tech stack and that. But I am a little shocked that they're making this move because almost every odd screen has some type of baseline free product, so to kind of get some people you know like if you would have a user than that. Or maybe they're seeing that a lot of people are using the free and not converting to a paid user. I don't know, I don't know the background data, but it's a little surprising for me.
51:46 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
What do you think of this one, Porter?
51:48 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Yeah, I mean I think Kanish covered most of the most, mostly here. The only thing I was going to make a joke is good and more stale lines out there for other people.
51:58 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Is it possible that they feel like they have just enough of a user base and they have enough word of mouth promotion, that they just no point of running this and they just feel comfortable with the paid parts of it?
52:09 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
Yeah, now that's a great question. So maybe in reality here it's once this is like a tout that's actually decent. Once he's discovered by sharp people, his info is not worth that much. So this could be that as many people as possible are really getting what they can at a spot odds, because I've seen the price also climb over time. So really, if you start giving this to any more people, maybe nobody gets. Now again, this is all speculation. Maybe nobody gets any value out of it. Maybe nobody gets now again, this is all speculation.
52:36 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Maybe nobody gets any value out of it. My gripe with this, my one gripe, is that they posted this on September 16th, so they gave anybody who just had it in their daily usage to open up their free Spot Odds account One day later, all of a sudden completely taken away.
52:54 - Flup (Host)
Jacob, why?
52:55 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
is someone using a free product entitled to get more time? I, I, I, I, no, that's no. I. I agree with that. It's a bad business process.
52:59 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
You want to give them time, but I feel like there should have been like at least a week of warning. You're right, they're not paying.
53:05 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
But well no, the odds of them to buy it go way up if you give them more time too. Yeah it's like hey tomorrow it's off like wait what it feels like you. Hey, tomorrow it's off Like wait what it feels like you're screwing them.
53:15 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
It's free for now, but it won't be free in two weeks. Consider upgrading to one of our paid packages. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's not how I would have handled it.
53:26 - Flup (Host)
I don't know how it works in Canada, but in America we are capitalists and Spanky is a very smart guy. I'm sure he's doing this because it will make him more money and is the best thing in his business, which is what he should be doing. So how can you hate on this? He's running a business, he's not running a charity here.
53:46 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Again, I'm not disagreeing with making it, taking away the free part Just I would have given more time to people and more of a warning.
53:53 - Flup (Host)
It's easy for you to say you're giving away his money.
53:55 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I mean, you don't like what we're talking about, You're right sure I'm not in his position, so maybe there's some information I'm not privy to, but I've said my piece. The last comment comes from Mr Peanutbetter, who was on the show last week, frequently features on this channel as well as the Hammer HQ for the Hammer Daily. He said Bought a few services to help with understanding market moves. This year, Since I am buying and I do think they win, I thought I would try to get plays where possible.
54:22
If you try to bet them in any way that is careful of cooking accounts, it's basically impossible to get the number. There is just no way anyone is getting the number released. I'm trying to get ahead of these where my numbers have it as a play, assuming they'll blow up the market, I still can't get down anything more than one, maybe two bets. 90% of customer bets have to be full point. Worse, probably more. And this kind of ties into the theme of the show, where this is how pick sellers can scam you. They can give out a line and you're not actually betting a line and we know how much of those percentages factor into your actual profitability.
55:00 - Flup (Host)
Profitability do you want to take the lead on this one flip? Yeah, this is why my stance is don't buy picks, and not all touts are necessarily bad, but just don't buy picks. And if you think and if if you think you're smart enough to know where you should buy picks which it is, then go for it. But if you're smart enough to know where you should buy picks, which it is, then go for it. But if you're asking if you should buy picks, no, the answer to you is no, and because it's impossible to get these numbers and you can only use them in very, very specific ways.
55:27 - Porter (BA Analytics) (Host)
What do you think, porter? Yeah, that's an important last statement. You can only use them in very specific ways. So 100 percent. He's also talking about legal sports like draft, kings, fan, all these sites here. Uh, let's just say that line.
55:39
There is just no way anyone is getting this number released that he this only applies to legals there. There is a way to get lots of these numbers. Here's the problem. Most people have no idea. He knows where to buy, but most people have no idea where to buy anything.
55:53
So the entire strategy of this, this is a dangerous segment where I'm going to disagree and I'm going to say you can get some of this stuff, but I don't want the audience to think let me go and try a bunch of places to buy and try to get this stuff, because there was a previous segment here by a post we did, where we, you know, call customer service posted something about creativity and grid and hard work and with enough creativity there are ways to do things in this industry that people think there aren't. But the real problem is most people who don't realize that have no chance of ever implementing that. That and this is a dangerous slippery slope of buying products if they give out picks and thinking that you know what to do with them and you don't know what to do with them yeah, I, I, you know, and so I know a number of people that sell picks that I would consider winning bettors that try to run a good service.
56:52 - Joey Knish (Host)
I just think it's harder now, now than ever, as PB is kind of alluding to, to not only get the prices but then, if you do get the prices, depending on where you bet, it is your account getting, you know, roasted or limited, and can you get it at more than, as he's saying, more than a couple places?
57:11
Probably not. And the timing and the amount of different, like top down people that are out there now, or the amount of people that are watching the screen now, even compared to three, five, seven years ago, is so much more, um, that, yeah, I, I hear what fluff is saying and you really you've got to be really in the weeds for I think it to make sense for you, in kind of the modern day, to ever consider it. And I think at some point a number of these, probably in the near future, will I don't know if they'll be defunct or if they'll fizzle out or if they'll just decide not to do it anymore, and the only options you'll have left will be what we started the show with, and that's unfortunate, but that seems to be kind of the way things are going.
58:02 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Well, we covered it all. Losing pick sellers can pretend that they're winning to scam you. Winning pick sellers can give you stuff that wins, but only if you can actually get the numbers. And then, if you do get the numbers, your account gets limited. Just tons of ways that you can get scammed by pick sellers. So you got to be really careful out there. We try to alert you about these things on this show right here. Circle back on this, circles off channel. If you did enjoy, please make sure you do. Smash that like button. Also, make sure you're subscribed to the channel. Keep up to date with our friday show, which you're watching right now, our monday live show and our wednesday bonus content. We have coming out every.
